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nina_blain_73

Are Battleships Really Supposed to Tank?

Who do I Shoot?  

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  1. 1. How do you Prioitize Targets consider all factors of being able to hit and damage to be equal

    • Battleships
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    • Crusiers
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    • Destroyers
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Another discussion here got me to thinking. Everyone keeps pointing out to me that when i'm in my battleships that I need to be up front tanking damage like a warrior in world of warcraft and pretty much any other mmo. But wows isn't an MMO and while the battle ship does have a ton of health and has a heal what it doesn't have is a way to force people to target it.

If I can't make others shoot at me, How can I tank?

When I am fighting I prioritize targets that I can see and hit DD, Cruiser, then Battleships.

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Its not so much as tanking.. as being a Threat that you force the enemy to deal with.

 

Closer a Battleship gets.. the more damage they can put out.    So a Battleship at 18km isn't much of a threat.. compared to one that is 12km away.

With that.. you have to know when you can safely move up and be that threat.  Compared to move up and just die.   

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, nina_blain_73 said:

Another discussion here got me to thinking. Everyone keeps pointing out to me that when i'm in my battleships that I need to be up front tanking damage like a warrior in world of warcraft and pretty much any other mmo. But wows isn't an MMO and while the battle ship does have a ton of health and has a heal what it doesn't have is a way to force people to target it.

If I can't make others shoot at me, How can I tank?

When I am fighting I prioritize targets that I can see and hit DD, Cruiser, then Battleships.

I have a hard time understanding your question reasoning. You asked HOW, Battleships, cruiser, and DD are not HOW. How do you do it - I Battleship it???

And YES, you are a BB, then you should be on the front line and attract shots

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2 minutes ago, theanhtb said:

I have a hard time understanding your question reasoning. You asked HOW, Battleships, cruiser, and DD are not HOW. How do you do it - I Battleship it???

And YES, you are a BB, then you should be on the front line and attract shots

The OP is saying there's no way to force the red team to shoot at him, like a true 'tanking' character in other MMOs.  And honestly, BBs are not tough enough under most conditions to tank in that sense for very long.

I often like to just use the Type 2 camo that only gives the dispersion bonus, figuring that higher detection means my BBs are seen earlier and maybe attract shots from ships that otherwise might hold their fire and catch one of my team's cruisers unaware.

Edited by Battleship_Dunkerque

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3 minutes ago, theanhtb said:

...you should be on the front line and attract shots

 

No.

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4 minutes ago, Battleship_Dunkerque said:

The OP is saying there's no way to force the red team to shoot at him, like a true 'tanking' character in other MMOs.  And honestly, BBs are not tough enough under most conditions to tank in that sense for very long.

Yes, you cannot force them, but you can bate them, invite them to shot you. Go to the front, angle, retreat, and repeat. Move back and forward, not staying behind all the time.
Toughness is subjective, but the fact is BBs are way tougher than cruisers. THat's all we need to know.

No one say that BB should just stay still at the front, that's suicide. 

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9 minutes ago, theanhtb said:

And YES, you are a BB, then you should be on the front line and attract shots

 

3 minutes ago, theanhtb said:

No one say that BB should just stay still at the front, that's suicide. 

 

No, of course nobody would say that. What was anyone thinking?

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Battleships should be the planet, DDs and cruisers should be the moons. You should only be out front with your battleship if the only thing that you're facing is other battleships. Otherwise, you let your moons screen for you, run off DDs and spot incoming torpedoes. No ship in WoWs is really designed for tanking damage, though if a stubborn opponent keeps throwing AP at angled armor, then BBs can fake it better than most other classes.

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Just now, SkaerKrow said:

Battleships should be the planet, DDs and cruisers should be the moons. You should only be out front with your battleship if the only thing that you're facing is other battleships. Otherwise, you let your moons screen for you, run off DDs and spot incoming torpedoes. No ship in WoWs is really designed for tanking damage, though if a stubborn opponent keeps throwing AP at angled armor, then BBs can fake it better than most other classes.

Amen brother, preach it!!

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If you removed HE entirely, then yes Battleships can definitely tank.

I've played my share of games where this situation occurred and I was able to keep 3 enemies glued to me while my team was capping flags. 
Several minutes later the team usually comes around to help me (too late as I die from intense pummeling) but those are very rewarding matches for me.

But if any of the 3 are firing HE, then nope.  Yes you can repair it, but in order to repair it, it has to stop long enough for the repairs to work, and it's not just HE (which can be bad sometimes, see: Kutuzov and others) it's the fires too. 
You cannot tank if you can't keep the damage at bay and your "Regeneration" isn't good enough. You can sacrifice yourself for the team tho.  But then again most ppl prefer standing somewhat back and pile-up the damage from opportunity shots.  And I don't blame them.

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Nooooooo! :Smile_amazed:

It doesn't matter the type of ship (DD,CA,BB) each ship within the class is different to others. Some BBs are better up close and brawling, some operate better a little further back. (The only thing I would say is further back does not mean on the next map! lol).

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For me, a spotted DD within 10 km is target #1.

As far as how to tank in a BB, it seems to be to make yourself a more tempting target. So exposed enough to get the enemy to shoot at you, but not enough to where you won't have enough time to angle in when the shots are fired.

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Just because a destroyer is a priority target does not mean it cannot tank. 

 

See, destroyers are prioritized for their role in combat, (capping, stealth, and torpedo strikes), battleships have tons of HP and repair parties. They soak up damage so that squishier ships like cruisers and destroyers can flex their strengths and influence the battle.

 

A cruiser without backup has problems, a cruiser with a battleship is confident and will assist the team.

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Asking for a generic answer to a complex question....

Position???   Cover???  Angling??  Cross-Fire???   OBJECTIVE???   How late in the game???  Are we ahead??

simple...  How about...

Battleships kill cruisers. /// Cruisers kill Destroyers. /// Destroyers kill Battleships....

And you know it's never that simple.  You want simple rules?  Hit 'Battle' and find out

Learn to adapt to each situation.... or die.  Experience is the answer.

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Stop thinking of it as "tanking" and more about mitigating potential damage. Ideally you want to be taking hits while receiving little to no damage. 

 

 

 

 

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Should Battleships tank? YES! Should they yolo charge ahead of DDs? NO!

 

As a general rule, a BB should be seen as a threat to be eliminated and encourage the enemy team to shoot at them rather than DDs and cruisers. They can tank shots FAR better than the other two types. If you as a BB are hiding behind an island and lobbing shots over that island while under concealment while your DDs and cruiser teammates push into caps and get focused on, you are playing it wrong.This is not the same thing as being line of sight for the entire enemy team, mind you. You should still play intelligently.

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Sort of. You're supposed to be an imposing obvious threat that the enemy has to deal with. Your goal should be to mitigate as much damage to yourself as possible while also being in a good position to do lots of damage and giving the other ships room to move around and do their job, just like a tank would. Unlike an mmo though there are times when you must capture points like a DD or stay at range or fire from a concealed position like a typical cruiser. 

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 What type of question is this, BB's should be sniping from 24km away all the time :cap_book:, never support cruisers, rant when they are on fire and blame the entire team when they die. 

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23 minutes ago, Spyde said:

Its not so much as tanking.. as being a Threat that you force the enemy to deal with.

 

Closer a Battleship gets.. the more damage they can put out.    So a Battleship at 18km isn't much of a threat.. compared to one that is 12km away.

With that.. you have to know when you can safely move up and be that threat.  Compared to move up and just die.   

 

 

 

 

That's just it though. Moving up, and being the biggest threat, are 2 different things. Player skill can make the difference.

 

Put a good player in a Fiji, and a bad player in a BB, at 7km, and who's the threat to another BB? The BB who lands 6-8K worth of pens/overpens every 30 seconds? Or the Fiji who's slamming 5K worth of damage into the superstructure every 7.5 seconds, plus torps? Especially if said enemy BB angles against your BB.

 

I'm not saying you can't effectively tank in a BB, just that, unless you can make yourself dangerous enough to be perceived as the biggest threat, (and that includes persuading tunnel-visioned pyrophobic "potatoes" who are getting HE spammed, or you can get your HE spamming teammate to lay off until you "draw aggro") whether or not you effectively tank is largely out of your hands.

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I cannot force someone to shoot me. Anyone that isn't stupid is going to shoot the DD or CA anyway because you almost never prioritize the BB when you could delete the CA. Damaging a BB is not as important as removing an entire ship from the enemy team.

Being the furthest forward is where DDs belong because they are the hardest to spot and have the best tools for escape. This is not where BBs belong. Woah, hang on there, Sparky. I didn't say they need to be in the back either. How far a BB should be from the enemy varies wildly with nationality, tier, and sometimes even build. The one thing they all have in common is that if they over extend, especially early game, they are going to die really fast. Why? Because they'll probably be the only thing the enemy team can see, so the entire enemy team is going to shoot them. This is why BBs with good concealment can be such a big advantage. Because they can extend further and position better without becoming the target of every gun on the map.

Some BBs should be at the 10km range. Most are happy at 15km. Some should be within secondary range wherever that happens to be because their secondaries are beastly. A few, like Missouri (due to accuracy) and Yaamato (due to lolpen) don't care how far away you are and will hunt whatever is showing the best broadside. Should you ever be in the back though where you spawned? Nope. Move. You should be following the cruisers that should be following the DDs. It should be a layered offense. DDs scouting and spotting, cruisers hunting DDs, BBs hunting cruisers, and everything setting BBs on fire when there aren't DDs and cruisers to shoot. 

 

...that got a bit ranty. Oh well. Just really annoys me when people act like BBs are these mystical things that can take this huge amount of punishment. Oh yeah, we can angle and bounce a bunch of shells, but you know what we aren't doing while we're steeply angled like that? Using the other half of our guns to remove enemy ships. Best case scenario, what's trying to kill us is ahead of us, and enemy cruisers are off to our side for us to shoot at while tanking but that rarely happens.

Yes we are a good bullet sponge and distraction, that's true, but we're also a vital part of the food chain. We kill the cruisers before they kill our DDs, and those DDs that are still alive can back-cap, spot, scout, ambush enemy BBs and turn the tide of a fight. And, heck, all this is moot anyway because like I said at the start of this, anyone that knows how to prioritize targets isn't going to care that we're there unless we're the only thing they can shoot at right now. 

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It's easier to say what you should NEVER be doing in aBB rather than what you should be doing in your BB.

 

If you ride the edge of the map harder than Seattle slew then you are bad.

If you only shoot your guns when your spotter plane is up then you are bad.

If you turn and run the instant a single fire is set on you or your screen starts flashing red you are bad.

If you are firing at DDs beyond thier effective torp range then you are bad. (obvious exception is they are the only target)

 

You should be playing your BB more like --  Ok Im going to that island a few KM from the cap circle, Im going to fight and shoot everything possible until I get there, once Im there Im going to chill and repair up and asses the situation, is team winning? Ok, then Im going to push to that island near the next cap. Is team loosing, ok then Im going to do a fighting retreat and stall the enemy flank as long as possible, that to me is the basics of being a BB.

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, cometguy said:

For me, a spotted DD within 10 km is target #1.

As far as how to tank in a BB, it seems to be to make yourself a more tempting target. So exposed enough to get the enemy to shoot at you, but not enough to where you won't have enough time to angle in when the shots are fired.

 

Or more to the point, baiting belt shots that will bounce from AP.  Soaking up HE until you've got significant HP loss then breaking contact either via island or going dark then putting out all the fires and popping heal.

 

All the stat farmers will shoot BBs over CA or DD because it's easy to hit a BB, it's not easy to hit a DD.  It's a pretty stupid thing to do, but they do it so exploit it.

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26 minutes ago, theanhtb said:

Yes, you cannot force them, but you can bate them, invite them to shot you. 

 

Do you get baited into shooting such a BB if you perceive a more dangerous target that you can hit?

 

Why would I fall for such an obvious tactic? If you have to entice me to shoot at you, chances are there's another target I find a higher priority.

Edited by Skpstr

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Just now, Cpt_RickSchwifty said:

It's easier to say what you should NEVER be doing in aBB rather than what you should be doing in your BB.

 

If you ride the edge of the map harder than Seattle slew then you are bad.

If you only shoot your guns when your spotter plane is up then you are bad.

If you turn and run the instant a single fire is set on you or your screen starts flashing red you are bad.

If you are firing at DDs beyond thier effective torp range then you are bad. (obvious exception is they are the only target)

 

You should be playing your BB more like --  Ok Im going to that island a few KM from the cap circle, Im going to fight and shoot everything possible until I get there, once Im there Im going to chill and repair up and asses the situation, is team winning? Ok, then Im going to push to that island near the next cap. Is team loosing, ok then Im going to do a fighting retreat and stall the enemy flank as long as possible, that to me is the basics of being a BB.

 

 

 

 

If you pop repair on one fire, you are bad.

If you have a secondary build on your T10 BB, you are bad.

If you don't run FP and then cry about HE/Fires, you are bad.

If you die in the first 10 minutes of the game, you are bad.

If you think that supporting a cap involves getting your BB inside the cap circle, you are bad.

If you think supporting a cap is best done from 15km, you are bad.

If you think that your place is behind the French cruisers, you are bad.

If you complain about Russian, French etc CA not "screening you from torpedos", you are bad.

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I have a long prioritization list based around the ship.

 

The ultimate is range, what ship is closest.

Second is, how much HP remaining.

 

If we assume all are full health at x range, then we get more detailed.

 

All are spotted at 10 km we'll say, one of each - Is the DD in torp range, if yes, priority one, if no, currently second target, Does the cruiser have torpedoes, if yes that bumps it up the question is is it in range, if no, Target 3 barring other factors. BB is top of the list because those guns are more powerful and a threat, and secondaries could already be firing. But, other factors can change that. Is the DD charging to get a torp shot, if yes, priority one. If the DD is holding range, the BB is angled, and cruiser is broadside, cruiser becomes priority one, DD and cruiser are holding range, BB is pressing, BB becomes priority. And several other factors I factor in that are best summed up as this -

 

How much of a threat are you to me, how much of a threat to my team winning.

 

If your in a German BB 18 km out, your doing it wrong. An American BB, you should still be closer. IJN, depending on the ship, they are more suited to long range but still, you have better accuracy closer you are. UK depends on tier.

 

I'm not gonna say BB's should be the tip of the spear, they can soak damage better sure, but only so much because fires are out of control and torps need a nerf in damage, I say that as someone who does play DD's and CV's. But they should not be trying to lob shells at max range the whole game. Cruiser should be near you to ward off planes, DD's to try and give you smoke cover and spot DD's and other ships. Odds are you will get spotted before the cruiser and DD, the enemy will open fire, and if they focus on you, they may not realize till too late 3 other ships were with you that have started laying into them with HE, AP and torps.

 

Yes, there is a point changes do need to happen to actually make BB's a little tankier. That said, there are still some BB players who, to be blunt about it, need to grow a spine and actually either join the battle (I have had a few, one who really ticked me off, directing cruisers, at times already near dead, to get caps, who ended up having to charge and fight full health BB's to get them while they were outside of weapons range being safe and claiming "they were skilled and would win cause of it") or get closer than their maximum bloody gun range.

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