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NeutralState

Fletcher's Torps can go up to 71 km/h! My God!

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I saw a Fletcher using torpedo acceleration, the little buggers are as fast as Tasmanian devils. Is torp acceleration a thing for USN DDs?

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On the Gearing yes, on the other DD's not so much.  The issue is the range.  The Gearing has really too much range at 16km,  your render/spotting range doesn't even reach past it, so losing a few km isn't too big of an issue.  Moving down to the Fletcher and Benson.  it could be helpful, but isn't really needed.  Assuming you are leveling the same captain all the way up the line, there are better skills to be investing into at that point.  If  you are training a specific captain for it, then maybe.

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yeah, its quite frustrating to know where a ship is hiding in smoke, and launch your torps at it, only for a fletcher to drop his 20 seconds later, or 2 km further away, and yet beat you to the punch.

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1 hour ago, NeutralState said:

I saw a Fletcher using torpedo acceleration, the little buggers are as fast as Tasmanian devils. Is torp acceleration a thing for USN DDs?

 

24 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I like it, it makes them get closer to my Radar+Hydro fitted Des Moines.

Yep they can, but then look at the radar coverage at  that tier. HazeGrayUnderway makes the good point regarding a Fletcher choosing this option, will then take a risk elsewhere - balance.

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29 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

 

Yep they can, but then look at the radar coverage at  that tier. HazeGrayUnderway makes the good point regarding a Fletcher choosing this option, will then take a risk elsewhere - balance.

 

It's the exact same dilemma IJN DD players have with the super fast, super powerful, faster reloading F3s compared to their other torps.  IJN DD complaints about the F3 torps are low range.  In a Tier VIII-X match, 8km range is very short and the issue they have is that it brings them into terribly dangerous situations to launch.

 

DM Radar @ 9.9km.

Moskva Radar, all Tier VIII-X RU Cruiser Radar is @ 11.7km.

That ONE crazy Radar Minotaur out of 100 with 9.9km Radar range

Missouri Radar @ 9.45km.

Black (DD) @ 7.49km.

Baltimore Radar @ 9.45km.

Chapayev Radar.

New Orleans Radar @ 9km.

The very rare Radar Ediniburgh @ 9km.

Dmitri Donskoi Radar.

 

Fletcher and Benson will also have to deal with

Belfast Radar @ 8.49km.

Atlanta Radar @ 8.49km.

Indianapolis Radar @ 9.9km.

 

If you're feeling very adventurous, Tier X German Hydro with 5.88km max ship detection range (GK, Z-52, Hindenburg)

Lo Yang Hydro @ 5.43km

Having to push up much closer risks detection by an enemy DD.

 

If that wasn't enough, then you risk yourself by getting spotted by catapult aircraft.

 

Oh, I almost forgot, SECONDARIES!

Bismarck / Tirpitz @ 11.3km

FDG @ 11.5km

GK @ 11.6km

Yamato @ 10.6km

 

The F3s had definite strengths but the risks are too much for most IJN DD players.  You bring yourself far too close to too many hazards.

 

Now, Gearing has very long range torps of about 16km, so TA isn't a bad idea for her and it still keeps her above that big 10km launch threshold.

Benson?  Her max torp range is already at 9.2km, TA takes that down to roughly 7.36km :Smile_teethhappy:

Fletcher?  Her max torp range is 10.5km, TA takes that down to about 8.4km, which is pretty much right there at the same threshold IJN DD players have in their issues with F3 torps.

 

11 minutes ago, Magic_Fighting_Tuna said:

I heard it works well on Russian DD's to.

 

I disagree.  It's a Tier 2 skill and I would rather slot Expert Marksman (because you don't want slow turrets in a fast, maneuvering DD while it's dodging gunfire) and Last Stand (because your engine getting knocked out, etc. is a death sentence in a DD).

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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47 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

 

I disagree.  It's a Tier 2 skill and I would rather slot Expert Marksman (because you don't want slow turrets in a fast, maneuvering DD while it's dodging gunfire) and Last Stand (because your engine getting knocked out, etc. is a death sentence in a DD).

Yeah from an actual game sense they aren't it was just really funny to use it on them cause it made their "short burn" torpedo's even faster. like the Gnevny, you can get its 53-39 mod. 1 torpedoes up to 75 knots and at that short of range they were quite hard to dodge:cap_haloween:

Edited by Magic_Fighting_Tuna

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

 

It's the exact same dilemma IJN DD players have with the super fast, super powerful, faster reloading F3s compared to their other torps.  IJN DD complaints about the F3 torps are low range.  In a Tier VIII-X match, 8km range is very short and the issue they have is that it brings them into terribly dangerous situations to launch.

 

DM Radar @ 9.9km.

Moskva Radar, all Tier VIII-X RU Cruiser Radar is @ 11.7km.

That ONE crazy Radar Minotaur out of 100 with 9.9km Radar range

Missouri Radar @ 9.45km.

Black (DD) @ 7.49km.

Baltimore Radar @ 9.45km.

Chapayev Radar.

New Orleans Radar @ 9km.

The very rare Radar Ediniburgh @ 9km.

Dmitri Donskoi Radar.

 

Fletcher and Benson will also have to deal with

Belfast Radar @ 8.49km.

Atlanta Radar @ 8.49km.

Indianapolis Radar @ 9.9km.

 

If you're feeling very adventurous, Tier X German Hydro with 5.88km max ship detection range (GK, Z-52, Hindenburg)

Lo Yang Hydro @ 5.43km

Having to push up much closer risks detection by an enemy DD.

 

If that wasn't enough, then you risk yourself by getting spotted by catapult aircraft.

 

Oh, I almost forgot, SECONDARIES!

Bismarck / Tirpitz @ 11.3km

FDG @ 11.5km

GK @ 11.6km

Yamato @ 10.6km

 

The F3s had definite strengths but the risks are too much for most IJN DD players.  You bring yourself far too close to too many hazards.

 

Now, Gearing has very long range torps of about 16km, so TA isn't a bad idea for her and it still keeps her above that big 10km launch threshold.

Benson?  Her max torp range is already at 9.2km, TA takes that down to roughly 7.36km :Smile_teethhappy:

Fletcher?  Her max torp range is 10.5km, TA takes that down to about 8.4km, which is pretty much right there at the same threshold IJN DD players have in their issues with F3 torps.

Yes, it's a risk, but I believe it to be a manageable one.

 

No cruiser driver is just going to pop radar unless he's sure he's gonna get something out of it.  Any cruiser driver who pops radar without being absolutely sure he's gonna be able to use it to full effect is a noob cruiser driver.

 

Against your average undivisioned player you can easily bait out a radar while at the edge of detection range, skirt out of detection before the uncoordinated Randoms on the red team can focus you, wait out the duration and then get nice and close while remaining undetected to get your stealth torps off.

 

Against a coordinated division that will instantly focus you, you're screwed sure.  But that's a situational awareness issue with you picking the wrong person to pick on.

 

Short or long range stealth torping is irrelevant as so long you're undetected you're essentially invulnerable to anything but bad luck (long range secondaries are a moot point if you're not detected... the enemy could have 100km range secondaries that are 100% accurate, but if he can't target you because you're undetected he might as well have nothing), and with a little situational awareness you can bait out the only way you can be detected without you making a mistake and wandering into visual spotting range.

Edited by Shadeylark

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6 hours ago, Shadeylark said:

Yes, it's a risk, but I believe it to be a manageable one.

All risks are manageable.

No cruiser driver is just going to pop radar unless he's sure he's gonna get something out of it.  Any cruiser driver who pops radar without being absolutely sure he's gonna be able to use it to full effect is a noob cruiser driver.

No DD would enter a cap if he didn't know a radar ship wasn't about (or would he?). Same for a DD entering a cap without considering dangers.

Against your average undivisioned player you can easily bait out a radar while at the edge of detection range, skirt out of detection before the uncoordinated Randoms on the red team can focus you, wait out the duration and then get nice and close while remaining undetected to get your stealth torps off.

Against your average undivisioned player you can easily catch them in the cap area or from popping radar behind land mass where no one can see you.

Against a coordinated division that will instantly focus you, you're screwed sure.  But that's a situational awareness issue with you picking the wrong person to pick on.

Anyone can pick the wrong person to pick on.

Short or long range stealth torping is irrelevant as so long you're undetected you're essentially invulnerable to anything but bad luck (long range secondaries are a moot point if you're not detected... the enemy could have 100km range secondaries that are 100% accurate, but if he can't target you because you're undetected he might as well have nothing), and with a little situational awareness you can bait out the only way you can be detected without you making a mistake and wandering into visual spotting range.

The fact that most DDs have the worst survivability stats Tier V-X, would indicate the chance of being detected is quite high - when tied into the low HP and greater dev strike chance etc I would say a DD is far from vulnerable.

Hi Shadeylark, your opposing view point is a valid one as, as you can see with my points above, everything is situational. :Smile_honoring:

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10 hours ago, Shadeylark said:

Yes, it's a risk, but I believe it to be a manageable one.

 

No cruiser driver is just going to pop radar unless he's sure he's gonna get something out of it.  Any cruiser driver who pops radar without being absolutely sure he's gonna be able to use it to full effect is a noob cruiser driver.

 

Against your average undivisioned player you can easily bait out a radar while at the edge of detection range, skirt out of detection before the uncoordinated Randoms on the red team can focus you, wait out the duration and then get nice and close while remaining undetected to get your stealth torps off.

 

Against a coordinated division that will instantly focus you, you're screwed sure.  But that's a situational awareness issue with you picking the wrong person to pick on.

 

Short or long range stealth torping is irrelevant as so long you're undetected you're essentially invulnerable to anything but bad luck (long range secondaries are a moot point if you're not detected... the enemy could have 100km range secondaries that are 100% accurate, but if he can't target you because you're undetected he might as well have nothing), and with a little situational awareness you can bait out the only way you can be detected without you making a mistake and wandering into visual spotting range.

 

That is exactly what I'm talking about.  If you are trying to get close, once you get detected, you are f--ked.

 

It's not as simple as just dealing with "that one Radar Cruiser" because there are others out there.  Enemy DDs lurking about, possibly some more that shifted into your area from somewhere else.  Catapult aircraft, CV aircraft, tons and tons of factors that greatly increase the chance of detection as you try to get into that "F3" torp range.

 

Getting closer means more random sh*t to detect you, and the deeper in you are, the higher the chances of you not surviving if detected.

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13 hours ago, NeutralState said:

I saw a Fletcher using torpedo acceleration, the little buggers are as fast as Tasmanian devils. Is torp acceleration a thing for USN DDs?

Hmm, 71 km/h = 38.3 knots...that's not a particularly unusual speed for a torpedo.  

 

Actual Mark 15 torpedo stats:

Effective firing range 6,000 yards at 45 knots (5,500 meters at 83 km/h)
Maximum firing range 15,000 yards at 26.5 knots (13,500 meters at 49 km/h)
Edited by mavfin87

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I would like to mention that shorter torp ranges, like in the 8km range, makes chasing ships really hard with torps. They will time out by the time they reach there if they're strategically retreating at full speed.

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To me, only Gearing has the range to spare. The others need every km they can get otherwise there are too many ships with secondaries that can hit you while you are trying to launch. 

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It's all a gamble. I like TA because of the lower time to react my enemy has. I know radar makes this a hard gamble but I find shooting Torps at the edge of long range you end up missing a bunch due to random turns. So I end up getting close anyway. I regularly stealth torp with a Farragut and so many say it's impossible. It's all about timing really. But this also explains my wretched survival rate. But man it's so worth it when a BB can't turn fast enough and eats 6+ Torps out of 2 racks. 

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9 hours ago, _WaveRider_ said:

Hi Shadeylark, your opposing view point is a valid one as, as you can see with my points above, everything is situational. :Smile_honoring:

yes everything is situational.

 

im only going to address one point of yours here though, since i think it ties into every other issue people have with dd-play.

 

dd's are a high-skill floor, high-skill cap class, much like cv's are.  (the only real counter to a dd is a cv, not radar cruisers as people like to claim)

 

here's the deal...

 

battleship = low skill floor, low skill ceiling.  the difference between a unicum and potato bb player is minimal because the class is so inherently limited in what it can do.  a bb can tank or deal damage.  that's it.  it doesn't take much to master doing those two things, and because you can only really do those two things, you don't have many options to deal with enemies who can do multiple things.

 

cruiser = medium skill floor, medium skill ceiling.  cruisers are in a weird place.  it doesn't matter whether you're a potato or unicum cruiser driver, if you're up against a bb, whether that bb is driven by a potato or a unicum, you're going to die.  when you're up against a dd, you only win if the dd driver is a potato, though if you're a unicum you can avoid dying to the dd.  only time cruiser driver skill really plays a factor is when you're up against another cruiser.

 

carrier =  high skill floor, high skill ceiling.  a potato cv might as well be afk for all the good he's going to do.  but at least he's not likely to die and feed the enemy team points.  a unicum cv player only needs a team to act as a meatshield keeping the enemy away until he can kill em all.

 

destroyer =  high skill floor, high skill ceiling.  a potato dd driver is even more useless than a potato cv driver, since the potato dd driver is likely to die and feed the enemy points.  but a unicum dd driver is basically invulnerable, able to control engagements so that he only fights when he knows he has an advantage, and often can fight without the enemy even being able to react by virtue of ambushes and stealth torping.  additionally, unlike the cv, the dd also acts as a force multiplier; through the use of things like smoke and spotting while remaining undetected, a dd can boost the survivability of his own teammates while simultaneously enhancing their capacity to do their jobs of shooting the bad guys.

 

the low survivability of high-tier dd's has less to do with the class being gimped and more to do with the playerbase being gimped.  you put a potato in a dd and he's going to be utterly useless, dying in the first few minutes of the match.  but put a unicum player in that same dd, and he's going to carry that match.

 

a well played dd is literally invulnerable, able to strike with impunity and escape from those few instances where he's detected and vulnerable by using the inherent advantages conferred by a dd's speed and dodging ability, low detection range.

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3 hours ago, Tzarevitch said:

To me, only Gearing has the range to spare. The others need every km they can get otherwise there are too many ships with secondaries that can hit you while you are trying to launch. 

remember, those secondaries are only useful if you make a mistake and wander into detection range.  so long as you remain undetected, those secondaries may as well not even exist.  play smart and you never have to worry about secondaries.  sometimes you gotta hold your itchy trigger finger and not take the risk just to deal some damage.

 

look, i know im not a dd expert yet, but i can honestly say that virtually every single death ive ever had in a dd has resulted from either being bombed by a cv, or from fighting other dd's.  i have literally never died to secondaries, or radar (at least not in a dd... been caught in radar a few times with brit cl's... but they've got a far more static playstyle than a dd)

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7 hours ago, Shadeylark said:

yes everything is situational.

 

im only going to address one point of yours here though, since i think it ties into every other issue people have with dd-play.

 

dd's are a high-skill floor, high-skill cap class, much like cv's are.  (the only real counter to a dd is a cv, not radar cruisers as people like to claim)

 

here's the deal...

 

battleship = low skill floor, low skill ceiling.  the difference between a unicum and potato bb player is minimal because the class is so inherently limited in what it can do.  a bb can tank or deal damage.  that's it.  it doesn't take much to master doing those two things, and because you can only really do those two things, you don't have many options to deal with enemies who can do multiple things.

 

cruiser = medium skill floor, medium skill ceiling.  cruisers are in a weird place.  it doesn't matter whether you're a potato or unicum cruiser driver, if you're up against a bb, whether that bb is driven by a potato or a unicum, you're going to die.  when you're up against a dd, you only win if the dd driver is a potato, though if you're a unicum you can avoid dying to the dd.  only time cruiser driver skill really plays a factor is when you're up against another cruiser.

 

carrier =  high skill floor, high skill ceiling.  a potato cv might as well be afk for all the good he's going to do.  but at least he's not likely to die and feed the enemy team points.  a unicum cv player only needs a team to act as a meatshield keeping the enemy away until he can kill em all.

 

destroyer =  high skill floor, high skill ceiling.  a potato dd driver is even more useless than a potato cv driver, since the potato dd driver is likely to die and feed the enemy points.  but a unicum dd driver is basically invulnerable, able to control engagements so that he only fights when he knows he has an advantage, and often can fight without the enemy even being able to react by virtue of ambushes and stealth torping.  additionally, unlike the cv, the dd also acts as a force multiplier; through the use of things like smoke and spotting while remaining undetected, a dd can boost the survivability of his own teammates while simultaneously enhancing their capacity to do their jobs of shooting the bad guys.

 

the low survivability of high-tier dd's has less to do with the class being gimped and more to do with the playerbase being gimped.  you put a potato in a dd and he's going to be utterly useless, dying in the first few minutes of the match.  but put a unicum player in that same dd, and he's going to carry that match.

 

a well played dd is literally invulnerable, able to strike with impunity and escape from those few instances where he's detected and vulnerable by using the inherent advantages conferred by a dd's speed and dodging ability, low detection range.

I believe you are incorrect.

 

Yes a CV is a counter to a DD. However, so is being visible and having a lower HP and being more prone to being dev-striked (or just wiped out). Other DDs are a counter, then the CAs and BBs that can shoot are a counter. The spotters are a counter, the fighters are a counter, the radar is a counter, the hydro is a counter, the bloom effect is a counter. All affect how a DD can attack and/or remain concealed - all vital to it being productive in game.

I'm not putting forward that DDs have it harder, I'm just saying please don't label DDs as being 'essentially invulnerable', especially when the stats show the exact opposite. All ships have their strength and weaknesses and the points HazeGrayUnderway put forward are as valid as yours are. :Smile_honoring:

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4 hours ago, _WaveRider_ said:

I believe you are incorrect.

 

Yes a CV is a counter to a DD. However, so is being visible and having a lower HP and being more prone to being dev-striked (or just wiped out). Other DDs are a counter, then the CAs and BBs that can shoot are a counter. The spotters are a counter, the fighters are a counter, the radar is a counter, the hydro is a counter, the bloom effect is a counter. All affect how a DD can attack and/or remain concealed - all vital to it being productive in game.

I'm not putting forward that DDs have it harder, I'm just saying please don't label DDs as being 'essentially invulnerable', especially when the stats show the exact opposite. All ships have their strength and weaknesses and the points HazeGrayUnderway put forward are as valid as yours are. :Smile_honoring:

DD requires high skill ceiling, surely you are joking

 

 

c49.png

 

I mean, yeah DD captains have to do some trigonometry but most of the time it's just sit in smoke and spam HE.

Edited by NeutralState

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4 hours ago, _WaveRider_ said:

I believe you are incorrect.

 

Yes a CV is a counter to a DD. However, so is being visible and having a lower HP and being more prone to being dev-striked (or just wiped out). Other DDs are a counter, then the CAs and BBs that can shoot are a counter. The spotters are a counter, the fighters are a counter, the radar is a counter, the hydro is a counter, the bloom effect is a counter. All affect how a DD can attack and/or remain concealed - all vital to it being productive in game.

I'm not putting forward that DDs have it harder, I'm just saying please don't label DDs as being 'essentially invulnerable', especially when the stats show the exact opposite. All ships have their strength and weaknesses and the points HazeGrayUnderway put forward are as valid as yours are. :Smile_honoring:

no.

 

being visible and having a lower HP and being more prone to being dev-struck are vulnerabilities, not counters.  other dd's are not counters, because they have the same vulnerabilities as you if you're in a dd.

 

rock is a counter to scissors because scissors cannot do anything to stop rock.  paper is a counter to rock because rock cannot do anything to paper.  scissors are a counter to paper because paper cannot do anything to scissors.  

 

the defining characteristic of a counter is that the counter has the capacity to take advantage of a vulnerability in its opponent without its opponent being able to do anything to counteract or mitigate the impact of the counter's actions.  simply being vulnerable to something does not constitute a counter until something can take advantage of that vulnerability without you being able to do anything about it.

 

and yes... DD's are unique out of all the non-plane ships (dd, cruiser, bb) in that they alone possess the potential of doing what they're supposed to be doing while simultaneously never having to expose their vulnerabilities.  no other class of ship, except maybe cv's, can claim that potential ability to do their jobs without ever having to expose their vulnerabilities to the enemy in the process.

 

or to put it in layman's terms... for cruisers and battleships, there's an upper limit to what they can do.  dd's have no such upper limit, the limit is the sky for a dd.  as such, if a dd fails in any way, it is not the fault of the class, it is the fault of the player driving the dd to fully exploit the potential of the class.  other classes can fail even when they play perfectly, because the of the limitations imposed upon the player by the class itself... there are no such limitations imposed upon dd's.

 

to put it yet another way... driving a bb is akin to trying to build a house with a toolbox that only has a hammer and a saw in it.  if you fail to build the house, its entirely likely that it was because you simply didn't have the necessary tools available.  (driving a cruiser is like having a hammer, saw, and screwdriver... but the hammer and screwdriver are both broken).  driving a dd on the other hand is like trying to build a house with an entire toolkit, plus contractor and architectural help.  if you fail to build the house, its not because you lacked the tools to do it, its because you lacked the skill and expertise to do it.

Edited by Shadeylark

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12 minutes ago, NeutralState said:

DD requires high skill ceiling, surely you are joking

 

 

c49.png

 

I mean, yeah DD captains have to do some trigonometry but most of the time it's just sit in smoke and spam HE.

Please feel free to use your own meme when I point out it wasn't me that said that but Shadeylark. :Smile_facepalm::Smile_teethhappy:

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13 minutes ago, Shadeylark said:

no.

 

being visible and having a lower HP and being more prone to being dev-struck are vulnerabilities, not counters.  other dd's are not counters, because they have the same vulnerabilities as you if you're in a dd.

 

rock is a counter to scissors because scissors cannot do anything to stop rock.  paper is a counter to rock because rock cannot do anything to paper.  scissors are a counter to paper because paper cannot do anything to scissors.  

 

the defining characteristic of a counter is that the counter has the capacity to take advantage of a vulnerability in its opponent without its opponent being able to do anything to counteract or mitigate the impact of the counter's actions.  simply being vulnerable to something does not constitute a counter until something can take advantage of that vulnerability without you being able to do anything about it.

 

and yes... DD's are unique out of all the non-plane ships (dd, cruiser, bb) in that they alone possess the potential of doing what they're supposed to be doing while simultaneously never having to expose their vulnerabilities.  no other class of ship, except maybe cv's, can claim that potential ability to do their jobs without ever having to expose their vulnerabilities to the enemy in the process.

 

or to put it in layman's terms... for cruisers and battleships, there's an upper limit to what they can do.  dd's have no such upper limit, the limit is the sky for a dd.  as such, if a dd fails in any way, it is not the fault of the class, it is the fault of the player driving the dd to fully exploit the potential of the class.  other classes can fail even when they play perfectly, because the of the limitations imposed upon the player by the class itself... there are no such limitations imposed upon dd's.

 

to put it yet another way... driving a bb is akin to trying to build a house with a toolbox that only has a hammer and a saw in it.  if you fail to build the house, its entirely likely that it was because you simply didn't have the necessary tools available.  (driving a cruiser is like having a hammer, saw, and screwdriver... but the hammer and screwdriver are both broken).  driving a dd on the other hand is like trying to build a house with an entire toolkit, plus contractor and architectural help.  if you fail to build the house, its not because you lacked the tools to do it, its because you lacked the skill and expertise to do it.

I'm sorry but the stats show you to be wrong. If you don't agree with the stats then fine - but it is obvious DDs are not 'essentially invulnerable' (if so there would be 100% in that survivability column).

 

It's a little like saying a ship should never get hit if they have the longest range in the game! Essentially invulnerable then huh! (Of course not!).

Edited by _WaveRider_

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For me only the Gearing has the range to spare. 

 

I prefer running the Fletcher without TA. Torps are good enough without it. 

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