Graf Zeppelin (1938)

[_Jeremiah_Gottwald]

The Graf Zeppelin was Germany's only aircraft carrier and it wasn't even used in the second world war (talk about useless)

 

Ship History

 

Work was started in 1936 on what was supposed to be the Kriegsmarine's first carrier ever! Laid down on December 28 of 1936 and launched on December 8 of 1938, construction periods were short because of shortages of experienced welders and few materials. By September of 1939, a wing of three carrier squadrons were standing by, but the ship was still incomplete. The conquest of Norway in 1940 basically ended the carriers for good. Germany needed to protect hundreds of ports and thousands of miles of vulnerable coastline, AA batteries and coastal guns were urgently needed. The 15cm guns that were to go on the ship were transferred to Norway as were the 10.5cm guns. In July of 1940 the ship was taken from Keil to Gotenhafen and then to in June, 1941 to Stettin to safeguard from Soviet air attacks. She was then taken back to Gotenhafen when air attacks were no longer a threat to serve as a floating warehouse. In August of 1942, Graf Zeppelin was the target for an air raid on the port of Gotenhafen. Nine Lancaster bombers equipped with Capital Ship bombs. There was haze surrounding the area so the ship was not at all damaged. Towed back to Keil in December of 1942, she was put in a floating drydock, might have actually been completed soon after, but by late January 1943, Hitler ordered all large ships taken out and scrapped. Admiral Raeder raised a protest about this and was soon relieved from his duty.  Admiral Dönitz was the one to replace Raeder. He got Hitler to keep all completed large ships in service, but all others had work halted immediately. On February 2 1943, work on the Graf Zeppelin was stopped for good. She was moved around to a couple of different harbors until docked for good in Szczecin. When Red Army forces got close in April 1945, the Kingston valves were opened and the lower compartments were flooded. She settled into the shallow, muddy water. A ten man squad rigged the interior with demolition charges to hole the hull and knock out vital equipment. At 6pm on April 25, 1945, the order to blow the charges was given. Smoke billowing from the funnel told that the charges had properly detonated.

 

 

http://www.lexikon-d...fZeppelin-1.jpg

 

 

Fate After the War

 

The Russians decided to repair the ship and use it for themselves when they got to it. Refloated in March, 1946 she was renamed Zeppelin and enlisted in the Baltic fleet. The last picture ever taken shows boxes cluttering the deck while being towed from Swinemünde. For many years after, there were several stories around the dissaperence of the ship because it wasn't seen again. The Soviet archives were opened and it was learned that it was used for target practice by the Russians. On August 14, 1947 the ship was towed into Swinemünde, then two days later, to its final resting place.There were many shells fired and bombs used, but the ship refused to sink (awesome German engineering). Finally a torpedo strike was ordered. First torp, nothing happened. Second torp, nailed the bow elevator area. The ship sank 25 mins later. It took 25 bombs, projectiles and 2 torpedos to put her under. The exact position of the wreck was unkown for decades.

 

http://ahoy.tk-jk.ne...fZeppelin.jpg  

Discovery in 2006

 

On July 12, 2006, a Polish oil company ship found a 265m long wreck close to the port of Leba. Which they thought was the Graf Zeppelin, a Polish survey ship the ORP Arctowski inspected the wreck and confermed that it was the Graf Zeppelin. She rests 264ft below the surface.

 

http://wwiimodeller....osite-Photo.jpg

 

(Sorry for the long read mates).   :Smile_veryhappy:

[ForcestormX]

Huh, I wasn't aware they actually built the thing. Huh.

[Ariecho]

Let me be the first to say "good job" (+1)

[Super_Dreadnought]

Ah the Graf Zeppelin, truly the Kriegsmarine most epic waste of resources, and a real bad luck story. Since it was based upon the blueprints of IJN Akagi - a 1920's built carrier, it was already a obsolete design compared to what the RN/USN/IJN were cooking up at the time. It was starved of resources needed for tanks to fight the Russians. Göring wouldn't give them any planes let alone navalise them. The Kriegsmarine didn't have escort ships with good range, and neither they they have enough of them. And had Graf Zeppelin managed to become operational against all odds, she would not have lasted a day in the North Sea anyway. You can bet that every allied bomber, and capital ship in the area would be heading towards the German carrier at full speed to get a free kill.

 

The Germans could have had 40 more Type VII u-boats for the same amount of tonnage. For the Germans it was the wrong ship at the wrong time in the wrong theatre. Still, it makes a great 'what if' ship.

[Tanz]

Good read Andy  :Smile_great:

[Crag_r]

If used could have brought the final nail to the convoys watery coffin. Along side the German capital ships forcing the convoys to break up to avoid mass slaughter, then becoming easy prey for the U-boats. Of course this plan been all washed up as it were with war breaking out in 39, this would have been a very different story if the Germans had gone to war when when they had preparations in the the planned 1946.

[_Jeremiah_Gottwald]

Yea, it didn't quite work out as Germany had planned it to.

[Super_Dreadnought]

Crag_r, on 26 November 2012 - 02:29 AM, said:

If used could have brought the final nail to the convoys watery coffin. Along side the German capital ships forcing the convoys to break up to avoid mass slaughter, then becoming easy prey for the U-boats. Of course this plan been all washed up as it were with war breaking out in 39, this would have been a very different story if the Germans had gone to war when when they had preparations in the the planned 1946.

Nah I don't think the Atlantic war would have been much different in 1946 if they had a bigger surface fleet. Firstly a giant battle fleet on the scale that the Nazis were planning is impossible to hide. They would have to break the Washington Naval Treaty at some point, and the moment that the Brits and French realise what Hitler is planning they'll be building bigger, better ships, and more of them faster than Germany could handle. Germany may have more Bismarcks, but the British and French will have more KGVs and Richelieus. 7 years extra buildup time for Germany also means 7 years buildup time for the Allies.

Another 7 years also means better torpedo bombers with more range and bigger bombs. The UK's early radar technology will also have improved.

Germany also has one huge geopolitical disadvantage which also gives them a massive problem in a naval war. They have France on one side, and the Soviet Union on the other side, Germany has to put most of it's resources into it's army and airforce not it's navy. What they ultimately need are more Panzers and Tigers, not more Graf Zeppelins. If the Nazis spent an extra 7 years on a not-so-secret military buildup AND spend a huge sum of their military budget on ships, the Allies will be laughing. I'd bet money on the French not collapsing in less than a month in this scenario, and being much MUCH more prepared than they were in 1939 irl. Also in real life Stalin had just purged a lot of his military officers and was rebuilding when Barbarrossa happened. By 1946 the Soviet Union will have finished modernising and rearming.

The Nazis had a lot of good timing in WW2. They attacked at a time when the French were very poorly led, and caught the Soviet Union with it's pants down because they hadn't finished reorganising their army and modernising equipment. Starting WW2 in 1946 for the sake of a naval buildup means that those opportunities might have dissappeared and their opponents will be armed to the teeth and waiting for them.

imho Bigger 1946 Kriegsmarine = more shipwrecks and a greater epic fail.

[Crag_r]

Deadnought, on 26 November 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

Nah I don't think the Atlantic war would have been much different in 1946 if they had a bigger surface fleet. Firstly a giant battle fleet on the scale that the Nazis were planning is impossible to hide. They would have to break the Washington Naval Treaty at some point, and the moment that the Brits and French realise what Hitler is planning they'll be building bigger, better ships, and more of them faster than Germany could handle. Germany may have more Bismarcks, but the British and French will have more KGVs and Richelieus. 7 years extra buildup time for Germany also means 7 years buildup time for the Allies.

Another 7 years also means better torpedo bombers with more range and bigger bombs. The UK's early radar technology will also have improved.

Germany also has one huge geopolitical disadvantage which also gives them a massive problem in a naval war. They have France on one side, and the Soviet Union on the other side, Germany has to put most of it's resources into it's army and airforce not it's navy. What they ultimately need are more Panzers and Tigers, not more Graf Zeppelins. If the Nazis spent an extra 7 years on a not-so-secret military buildup AND spend a huge sum of their military budget on ships, the Allies will be laughing. I'd bet money on the French not collapsing in less than a month in this scenario, and being much MUCH more prepared than they were in 1939 irl. Also in real life Stalin had just purged a lot of his military officers and was rebuilding when Barbarrossa happened. By 1946 the Soviet Union will have finished modernising and rearming.

The Nazis had a lot of good timing in WW2. They attacked at a time when the French were very poorly led, and caught the Soviet Union with it's pants down because they hadn't finished reorganising their army and modernising equipment. Starting WW2 in 1946 for the sake of a naval buildup means that those opportunities might have dissappeared and their opponents will be armed to the teeth and waiting for them.

imho Bigger 1946 Kriegsmarine = more shipwrecks and a greater epic fail.

Not necessarily, the planned 1946 war was only with the major Western Powers: Britain and France. Thereby Isolating the threat of Russia making a victory entirely possible.

[Ariecho]

I think that Deadnought has some very solid arguments.  One that is lacking though (in my opinion) is that you don't invent a naval culture just like that.  You either have it or you don't.  Both France and Germany have always been continental countries.

 

Two thousand years of European history show that not that many countries in Europe had that (naval) mentality.  The British, Dutch, and Spaniards were (by obligation) naval countries.

• In the case of the British, it was matter of survival, being on an island.

• In the case of Spain, the only way to expand in Europe would have been North (although I still wonder why Portugal never was annexed), and France was in the way.  Hence, when Spain tried to play a bit of "what is yours is now mine" in Europe, especially in Italy, they needed a navy.

• Same goes with the Netherlands.  They were ultimately too small for any land grab in Europe, had they wanted to.

France tried many times to have a powerful navy, and failed as many times.  The Army had precedence, and after the revolution, there was a lot of suspicion between the French government and its navy.  The reason being that most ship commanders were nobles, and initially refused to swear allegiance to the Republic.  Even nowadays, the French navy's nickname is "La Royale" (the royal).

 

Germany is a bit different.  The Germany as we know it these days was a conglomerate of smaller States.  Military build-up at the end of the 19th century called for a strong navy, but at that time, the Germans still had to deal with the 800 gorilla in the Atlantic: the Royal navy, seconded by the lesser French navy.

[Super_Dreadnought]

Crag_r, on 26 November 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

Not necessarily, the planned 1946 war was only with the major Western Powers: Britain and France. Thereby Isolating the threat of Russia making a victory entirely possible.

Conflict with the Soviet Union is inevitable imho.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Lebensraum

Fascism (far right) and Communism (far left) are ideologically opposed. Hitler hated the communists and Slavic people almost as much as the Jews, and It was always the longstanding the aim of Nazism to get rid of them. That why the Nazis launched Operation Barbarossa in real life to surprise attack the Soviet Union. It is often rumoured that Stalin was reorganising and modernising the Soviet army for an eventual backstab on Germany whilst they were busy with the Allies, but Hitler just managed to backstab him first. Now if I were Uncle Joe I'd watching Germany and the Allies grinding each other down, I'd tell the red army to get ready to spread communism west. :Smile_teethhappy:

In a alternative 1946 scenario where Germany is far less likely to conquer France in weeks (kriegsmarine surface fleet would still blown to pieces), Germany wouldn't try Barbarossa of course since a 2 front war would obviously be suicide but the underlying conflicts of interest between nazism and Communism are still there. The only winner would be Stalin.

[Ariecho]

Deadnought, on 26 November 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

Conflict with the Soviet Union is inevitable imho.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Lebensraum

Fascism (far right) and Communism (far left) are ideologically opposed. Hitler hated the communists and Slavic people almost as much as the Jews, and It was always the longstanding the aim of Nazism to get rid of them. That why the Nazis launched Operation Barbarossa in real life to surprise attack the Soviet Union. It is often rumoured that Stalin was reorganising and modernising the Soviet army for an eventual backstab on Germany whilst they were busy with the Allies, but Hitler just managed to backstab him first. Now if I were Uncle Joe I'd watching Germany and the Allies grinding each other down, I'd tell the red army to get ready to spread communism west. :Smile_teethhappy:

In a alternative 1946 scenario where Germany is far less likely to conquer France in weeks (kriegsmarine surface fleet would still blown to pieces), Germany wouldn't try Barbarossa of course since a 2 front war would obviously be suicide but the underlying conflicts of interest between nazism and Communism are still there. The only winner would be Stalin.

The only flaw in that scenario is that to go against the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany would still have had to go through Poland, Czechoslovakia, etc ... Would the outcome have been different with both the British and French armies being prepared, as opposed to the state of disarray they both were in 1939?  Would they have then intervened?  I don't know.

[_Jeremiah_Gottwald]

I'm not sure. There is a chance of different outcomes but we don't know exactly how it would be.

[JeeWeeJ]

Awesome work andy! Keep it up! :Smile_great: +1!

[Super_Dreadnought]

Ariecho, on 26 November 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

The only flaw in that scenario is that to go against the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany would still have had to go through Poland, Czechoslovakia, etc ... Would the outcome have been different with both the British and French armies being prepared, as opposed to the state of disarray they both were in 1939?  Would they have then intervened?  I don't know.

Actually the alternative timeline scenario makes perfect sense, assuming everything plays out similarly - but with final trigger being pulled in 1946.

http://en.wikipedia....unich_Agreement Czechoslovakia was reduced to a rump state by Germany in 1938 and would be nothing more than roadkill in this timelineby 1946.

http://en.wikipedia....Ribbentrop_Pact Meanwhile Germany and The USSR had an agreement to divide it up Poland. Now since Poland had an alliance with the Allies any kind of 1946 war between Germany and UK/France would have involved Poland, and they simply have no chance against both Germany and Russia whatever they do up to 1946.

So there's the border needed for Germany to go up against the Soviet Union.  :Smile_glasses:




So er...um...you know what. I think I'll get this ship once the german tech tree comes out. :Smile_veryhappy:

[Crag_r]

Deadnought, on 27 November 2012 - 12:51 AM, said:

Actually the alternative timeline scenario makes perfect sense, assuming everything plays out similarly - but with final trigger being pulled in 1946.

http://en.wikipedia....unich_Agreement Czechoslovakia was reduced to a rump state by Germany in 1938 and would be nothing more than roadkill in this timelineby 1946.

http://en.wikipedia....Ribbentrop_Pact Meanwhile Germany and The USSR had an agreement to divide it up Poland. Now since Poland had an alliance with the Allies any kind of 1946 war between Germany and UK/France would have involved Poland, and they simply have no chance against both Germany and Russia whatever they do up to 1946.

So there's the border needed for Germany to go up against the Soviet Union.  :Smile_glasses:




So er...um...you know what. I think I'll get this ship once the german tech tree comes out. :Smile_veryhappy:

The Allied declaration of war over Poland actually took everyone by surprise. After Neville Chamberlain's acceptance of the take over of the Sudetenland much of the world was expecting the Allies to continue to avoid war at all costs. Germany intended to continue to take bites of Europe until they took the industrial capability needed to then take the fight to the allies.

[BBPepper]

Another possible "what if" scenario  the Soviet Union declares war on Britain and France (because soviet union invaded Poland) germany would be given a golden opportunity to really focus in on britian (with huge amounts of soviet raw material backing them) why would the soviets declare war on the western countries? simple to delay the war with germany (which is going to happen) germans would get bloody mauled invading britain and if they win the Army and Luftwaffe would  be so weak the soviets would have all of europe to take with no real diffuculty at all or Britain or the USA to bargain with,

[nixxxie]

BBPepper, on 27 November 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

Another possible "what if" scenario  the Soviet Union declares war on Britain and France (because soviet union invaded Poland) germany would be given a golden opportunity to really focus in on britian (with huge amounts of soviet raw material backing them) why would the soviets declare war on the western countries? simple to delay the war with germany (which is going to happen) germans would get bloody mauled invading britain and if they win the Army and Luftwaffe would  be so weak the soviets would have all of europe to take with no real diffuculty at all or Britain or the USA to bargain with,

You are sadly mistaken about world's politics. SU never needed to declare war, they claimed Poland a nonexisting country and "protected" population.
It's one of these curiosities of history...

[nixxxie]

andypandy1996, on 26 November 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

Fate After the War

The Russians decided to repair the ship and use it for themselves when they got to it. Refloated in March, 1946 she was renamed Zeppelin and enlisted in the Baltic fleet. The last picture ever taken shows boxes cluttering the deck while being towed from Swinemünde. For many years after, there were several stories around the dissaperence of the ship because it wasn't seen again. The Soviet archives were opened and it was learned that it was used for target practice by the Russians. On August 14, 1947 the ship was towed into Swinemünde, then two days later, to its final resting place.There were many shells fired and bombs used, but the ship refused to sink (awesome German engineering). Finally a torpedo strike was ordered. First torp, nothing happened. Second torp, nailed the bow elevator area. The ship sank 25 mins later. It took 25 bombs, projectiles and 2 torpedos to put her under. The exact position of the wreck was unkown for decades.

That's most probably not the truth. Based on wreck location and checking times, she broke from the tow and was drifting for a few hours - then being sunk as an emergency.
She was to be sunk anyway but in a different place.

[anonym_auUiRfWCi1jI]

Nice OP.  Good work on posting.  I'm curious about the floating debris in the first pic.  Any idea or speculation?

[Wunderwaffen1945]

Thumb's up

[Gohibniu]

Interesting story. Even if she would have been operational, her value was doubtful. Took the US, UK, and Japan a generation to play with designs and concepts to get a viable weapon out of an aircraft carrier. Germany would have had no such luxury.

[_Jeremiah_Gottwald]

t42592, on 04 December 2012 - 04:50 AM, said:

Nice OP.  Good work on posting.  I'm curious about the floating debris in the first pic.  Any idea or speculation?

Possible that it could have been some of the launch cradle.

[brian333]

Assuming is fun. Let's assume this:

 

Germany invades Poland and the Phoney War or Bore War ensues in France. However, the Soviets' occupation of the Baltic States and Finland results in Allied involvement in Finland against the Soviet Union, rather than as an ally. This is not so far from what actually happened. The U.S. had already issued huge loans to Finland and Britain offered 50k troops, but Stalin offered a deal. Finland ceded territory and ended the war.

 

In the imaginary scenario I could see the Allies asking Germany to join them, accepting Germany's annexations as fait accompli. Under this scenario Germany is freed of the Versailles Treaty as well as the Washington and London treaties, and the Graf Zeppelin is completed and moved to the Black Sea where she reigns supreme, backed by Tirpitz and some of the now famous commerce raiders.

[brian333]

andypandy1996, on 23 January 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

Possible that it could have been some of the launch cradle.

That is exactly what it is. If you'll notice all of the debris is milled lumber, and that's not the kind of thing you see a lot of floating anywhere without a good reason.