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dseehafer

Is Espana too weak for tier 3??

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Greetings all,

 

    One little ship that comes up as an idea for a premium ship every now and again is the Micro-Dreadnought Espana (or an Espana class ship in general). Espana, Alfonso XIII, and Jaime were Spain's only Dreadnoughts ever, 2 served in both World Wars, and they were also the smallest Dreadnoughts ever built by any nation. It could also be the first Spanish ship in-game. As you can see, she's more than qualified for the status as a premium ship.... but can she work in-game?? We're going to look into that.

 

Jaime_1.jpg

 

For this exercise, I will be pitting Espana's measurable historical statistics and comparing them to the worst like-stat among all tier 3 battleships.

 

 

Displacement

 

Espana - 16,450t

South Carolina - 17,900t

 

Compared to South Carolina alone this doesn't look too terrible, but then you must consider that SC is already more than 2,000t lighter than the next lightest tier 3 battleship (Nassau - 20,535t). Already this is a massive blow to her survivability.

 

 

Armor

 

Espana - Vertical Protection = 230mm Belt + 30mm Turtleback + 38mm Longitudinal Bulkhead

               Horizontal Protection = 20mm Deck + 20mm Deck + 25-50mm Main Deck

               Turret Face Armor = 234mm

 

Bellerophon - Vertical Protection = 254mm Belt + 57mm Turtleback + 38-51mm Longitudinal Bulkhead

                     Horizontal Protection = 19mm Deck + 32mm Main Deck

                     Turret Face Armor = 279mm

 

Even in the Armor department, Espana is the worst, though, her 3-layer deck protection isn't terrible for the tier. However, her turtleback armor scheme should translate into a very small citadel.

 

 

Main Battery Broadside

 

Espana - 8 x 305mm"

Nassau - 8x 280mm"

 

Espana, like all other tier 3 battleships, can bring at least 8 guns to a broadside. Her guns are the same size as all other tier 3 battleships save for Nassau. However, her staggered wing-turret layout means that you will have to go nearly fully broadside on to any foe if you wish to fire a full 8-gun broadside. While Nassau's guns are smaller, they have the fastest reload in the tier and can also fire an 8 gun broadside without exposing her sides as much as Espana would need to.

 

567px-Espana_class_main_weapon.svg.png

 

 

Secondary Battery Broadside

 

Espana - 10x1 102mm

Bellerophon - 7x1 102mm

 

Yay, something Espana isn't the worst at! She's even better than SC to boot as SC has 10x1 76mm secondary guns to a broadside. The other 3 are superior in this category, though.

 

 

Speed

 

Espana - 20.4kn

South Carolina - 18kn

 

All tier 3 battleships are slow, but Espana is not the slowest. Even Nassau is slightly slower at 20kn, the others are slightly faster. Note: Espana's design top-speed was 19.5kn and this is the number most sources show, however, Alfonso XIII made 20.36kn on Sea Trials and even Jaime achieved 20.03kn on her own Trials.

 

 

Final Remarks

 

These are the only measurable hard-stats, though, I did leave out AA firepower as this is irrelevant at tier 3. Concealment should be similar to Nassau who is dimensionally similar to Espana. I don't think WG wants to dip their toes back into the tier 2 Battleship pool again and even then Espana is still vastly superior to Mikasa. The only real place for Espana is tier 3. Going off of her historical statistics (almost all premium ships in-game are implemented as historically accurate as possible) she kinda looks like a turd. Now, WG could do something(s) to help her out a little, like reload speed, special consumable, special quirk, etc... but for this exercise, we are only guessing based off of what we know the ship was like historically. In either event, Espana could find herself as a gift-ship or reward ship ala Mikasa. In this way, History nuts, ship-collectors, and people excited about the first Spanish ship in-game can have her (if only as a port decoration / blue-moon ship) and those who don't want a turd battleship can sell her and keep the free port slot. Everybody wins!

 

 

What do you think? Would you like to see an Espana class Micro-Dreadnought in-game? Would you keep/use her even if she ends up being a turd? I know I would!

 

Have a nice day! :Smile_honoring:

 

 

Espana.jpg

 

Image result for espana class battleships

 

Related image

 

Image result for battleship Alfonso XIII

 

Image result for battleship Alfonso XIII

 

Image result for battleship Alfonso XIII

 

Image result for battleship Alfonso XIII

 

Image result for battleship Alfonso XIII

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=81065&d=1455206902

 

 

Fun fact! One of Jaime's turrets still exists today!

 

Related image

  • Cool 11

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I have always thought that she should be a T3. She'd be a little difficult to balance, and perhaps need some quirks but otherwise, she looks like a good fit. :Smile_great:

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I think you might get away with her as a premium, I think she's too weak for a tree.  I'd really like to see a pan-EU tree for the smaller navies of Europe.

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Is called "España", no Espana, try use the "ñ"

Then about her, in one way or another, if WG make a place for her, she is more than welcome to my fleet, even if she end being a turd like you say.

Also, could you try doing something like this BUT, with other less know ships from "exotic places" like a few ones from Argentina: Almirante Brown-class Heavy Cruisers or Rivadavia-class Battleships?

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11 minutes ago, BrunoSchezer said:

Is called "España", no Espana, try use the "ñ"

 

1

 

I'm well aware thank you. I wasn't going to go to the symbol chart every time I said the ship's name, which was a lot... 

 

I rarely, if ever, use the fancy symbols. Not for Blücher, not for Lützow, not for España. It is, in my mind, a waste of time. No one is going to not know which ship I'm talking about just because I type Blucher instead of Blücher, etc...

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If ships with terrible designs, paper ships, navies that did nothing in the war could be made into wonder weapons into WoWS, I'm sure Espana can be made great again.  We have an entire tech tree line of Cruisers that cannot shoot HE.  Nothing that whipping up stats can't fix.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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3 minutes ago, dseehafer said:

 

I'm well aware thank you. I wasn't going to go to the symbol chart every time I said the ship's name, which was a lot... 

 

I rarely, if ever, use the fancy symbols. Not for Blücher, not for Lützow, not for España. It is, in my mind, a waste of time. No one is going to not know which ship I'm talking about just because I type Blucher instead of Blücher, etc...

Well then, but you avoided my question...

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21 minutes ago, BrunoSchezer said:

 

Also, could you try doing something like this BUT, with other less know ships from "exotic places" like a few ones from Argentina: Almirante Brown-class Heavy Cruisers or Rivadavia-class Battleships?

 

 

I've already covered some of those ships, and other little-know ships in my ADLA series. - 

 

Or did you want them redone in this specific format?

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21 minutes ago, dseehafer said:

 

I've already covered some of those ships, and other little-know ships in my ADLA series. - 

 

Or did you want them redone in this specific format?

Well, if you can, then is very welcome, even more if is about the Rivadavia (for her armor scheme) and La Argentina (I want to know how well she will perform against the rest of CLs).

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As a counter question, is she too strong for T2 alongside Mikasa?

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As weak as she would be, the question is would enough people buy her to make it worth WG's time researching and modeling her. Remember the Mikasa was done very early and was used more for promos to grow the population than anything else. 

 

I'd personally rather see ships from T-VI to T-VII since those are actually useful as trainers and making credits. I mean seriously, have you played the Katori (assuming you got her in the mini marathon mission) more than a handful of times? 

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30 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

As a counter question, is she too strong for T2 alongside Mikasa?

Yes. Wargaming also would make more money on a T3 premium so in our fantasy they'd probably make it a T3, perhaps with slightly better dispersion and maneuverability to balance it. By the same token, there's not much money to be made on T3 premiums, so I doubt we'll ever see this elegant little ship, unfortunately. What was the last T3 premium released? I think it was the Oleg, that was nine months ago. At this pace in the lifecycle of this game, it's a doubtful prospect. If, however, we can get more people playing and supporting the game financially, then that might help.

Edited by chs4000

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Jesus Christ... did anyone else look up those guns on Navweaps?

 

894 mps muzzle velocity? They shell is 386 kg, so I expect the penetration would be better than Kawachi...

 

Overall... I'd have to look at how the armor is arranged first before making judgment on that (don't have time right now to go looking, class in a few), but she seems underarmed at the moment, because of the gun arrangement. The firing angles might not be great...

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On 9/23/2017 at 6:18 PM, dseehafer said:

Main Battery Broadside

 

Espana - 8 x 305mm"

Nassau - 8x 280mm"

 

567px-Espana_class_main_weapon.svg.png

 

If this diagram and the pictures are accurate, it can only fire 6 guns in a broadside. The side turrets can not traverse past the centreline stacks and masts.

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On 9/23/2017 at 7:40 PM, why_u_heff_to_be_mad said:

ahh the Spanish navy

 

sinking it , or parts of it, is a highlight of any HoI game 

Indeed.

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2 hours ago, _cthulhu_ said:

If this diagram and the pictures are accurate, it can only fire 6 guns in a broadside. The side turrets can not traverse past the centreline stacks and masts.

 

Indeed, it looks like the stack and masts prevent the wing turrets from being able to traverse and fire across the deck. This limits her to a rather unfortunate six gun broadside. She would need a quick reload and good level of accuracy to make up for that.

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Alright, I found an image, unfortunately I can't upload it. However, it and a lot of other info on the España-class can be found here:

 

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=88

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4 hours ago, _cthulhu_ said:

If this diagram and the pictures are accurate, it can only fire 6 guns in a broadside. The side turrets can not traverse past the centreline stacks and masts.

 

1 hour ago, Big_Spud said:

 

Indeed, it looks like the stack and masts prevent the wing turrets from being able to traverse and fire across the deck. This limits her to a rather unfortunate six gun broadside. She would need a quick reload and good level of accuracy to make up for that.

 

"The en echelon arrangement was chosen over superfiring turrets—such as those used in the American dreadnoughts—to save weight and cost. All four turrets could in theory fire on the broadside, and three could fire ahead or astern. However, blast effects from the wing turrets generally prohibited firing them across the deck or directly ahead and astern"

 

Espana_class_line-drawing%2C_Brassey_1911.png

 

 

You can see by the firing arcs above that there is enough room for the guns to safely clear the funnel, though, they may need to be raised in order to do so.

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2 minutes ago, dseehafer said:

 

 

"The en echelon arrangement was chosen over superfiring turrets—such as those used in the American dreadnoughts—to save weight and cost. All four turrets could in theory fire on the broadside, and three could fire ahead or astern. However, blast effects from the wing turrets generally prohibited firing them across the deck or directly ahead and astern"

 

Espana_class_line-drawing%2C_Brassey_1911.png

 

 

You can see by the firing arcs above that there is enough room for the guns to safely clear the funnel, though, they may need to be raised in order to do so.

 

That would be an extremely tight fit for those turrets to be able to clear the funnel and mast base. What was the maximum elevation of those guns, 15 degrees?

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Just add accuracy as Big_Spud says and problem solved.

There's a ton of headroom for BB accuracy at T3, and Giulio Cesare's showing what the value can be.

Edited by mofton

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3 minutes ago, Big_Spud said:

 

That would be an extremely tight fit for those turrets to be able to clear the funnel and mast base. What was the maximum elevation of those guns, 15 degrees?

 

 

No, the turrets would have to turn towards the funnel, there is not enough clearance to go the mast way. (Hopefully that made sense). You can see in the diagram that if the arcs were made into a full circle the masts would be inside the circle. However, the funnel is cleared by both turrets. 

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5 hours ago, chs4000 said:

Yes. Wargaming also would make more money on a T3 premium so in our fantasy they'd probably make it a T3, perhaps with slightly better dispersion and maneuverability to balance it. By the same token, there's not much money to be made on T3 premiums, so I doubt we'll ever see this elegant little ship, unfortunately. What was the last T3 premium released? I think it was the Oleg, that was nine months ago. At this pace in the lifecycle of this game, it's a doubtful prospect. If, however, we can get more people playing and supporting the game financially, then that might help.

The question wasn't "Will she make more money at Tier 2", it was "How does she stack up to Mikasa in tier 2".

 

Displacement
Mikasa - 15,140 tons
Espana - 16,450 tons

 

Armor
Espana
Vertical Protection = 230mm Belt + 30mm Turtleback + 38mm Longitudinal Bulkhead
Horizontal Protection = 20mm Deck + 20mm Deck + 25-50mm Main Deck
Turret Face Armor = 234mm

Mikasa
Vertical Protection = 229mm Belt + 152mm casemates
Horizontal Protection = 76mm deck
Turret Face = 254mm

 

Broadside
Mikasa - 4x 30.5cm - But a much, much heavier secondary battery
Espana 6x 30.5cm - Four pairs of guns, but as we're discussing, I don't think all eight will be usable at the same time.

 

Secondaries

Mikasa

14 × single 6 in (152 mm) QF guns
20 × single 12-pounder guns
Espana

20 × 102 mm (4 in) guns

 

Speed
Mikasa - 18 knots
Espana - 20.4 knots

 

 

And the answer is "Slightly better, but really not by much aside from broadside weight" which could be negated by improving Mikasa's secondary battery to "Useful in PVP" ranges. Similar to how Gneisnau and Bismarck have fewer main guns than their tier contemporaries, but make up for it with secondary battery effectiveness.

 

I could see Espana working in tier 2, especially if Mikasa is buffed a bit to be more competitive.

Edited by AraAragami

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