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Reymu

IFHE question

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Matter for 203s? My 19-point ARP captain runs it. If keep chappy, she'll need another captain since plan on taking the 13-pointer to the Donskoi and maybe Moskva.

 

Curious thing about IFHE is it seems to ensure the HE always does serious damage to DDs regardless if they're angled. Before I had it, frequently my HE damage could get absorbed by the DD's gun HP or whatever to shield the ship's HP. After taking it, I noticed the extra pen on HE seems to prevent its modules absorbing damage.

 

Just my experience. After seeing it's not the case w/ my clanmates, wondering what everyone else thinks. I mainly took IFHE for better HE damage vs. KMS and US BBs.

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No. No IFHE for any gun above 180mm, period.

Your HE Penetration without IFHE is above 32mm, IFHE will bring it to somewthing between 40-50mm. So no gain whatsoever that would justify the fire Chance loss and the loss of four commander Points.

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It matters very little for 203mm HE shells, don't bother with it. IJN and USN 203mm HE can already penetrate the 32mm thrashhold on the bows, sterns, and hulls of battleships, and can certainly deal damage to any dd and cruiser. KM 203mm's base penetration is enough to penetrate pretty much anything except armored bomb decks, including the weather deck of USN battleships and some decks of KM battleships, taking IFHE doesn't pass anymore thresholds while taking away the already pretty anemic fire chance...

I would recommend IFHE for 180mm Soviet guns, 155mm IJN guns and 152mm Soviet, British, French and USN guns.

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1 minute ago, SireneRacker said:

No. No IFHE for any gun above 180mm, period.

Your HE Penetration without IFHE is above 32mm, IFHE will bring it to somewthing between 40-50mm. So no gain whatsoever that would justify the fire Chance loss and the loss of four commander Points.

^^^This

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I have IFHE on my 19 point German BB captains.  Since the changes, I've noticed the secondaries do quite a bit more damage.  

 

Is it a waste of 4 points?  Maybe, but I don't play them often so it doesn't bother me.

 

B

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2 hours ago, SireneRacker said:

No. No IFHE for any gun above 180mm, period.

240s on Henri might be an exception for breaking the 50mm mark. Right on the money about the 203s, though.

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3 hours ago, SireneRacker said:

No. No IFHE for any gun above 180mm, period.

Your HE Penetration without IFHE is above 32mm, IFHE will bring it to somewthing between 40-50mm. So no gain whatsoever that would justify the fire Chance loss and the loss of four commander Points.

I understand this, however, what do you think about Gneisenau or Großer Kurfürst secondary builds?  Flamu had a video about the damage secondaries had on even bow on tier X BBs and the results were impressive, and the fire chances, though lessened, still resulted in the same number of fires, though fire damage was less.

 

It basically makes a very limited build though, as you have 2 1pt. skills, 1 2pt, 1 3pt. and 3 4pt. skills (Advanced Firing Training, Manual Secondaries and IFHE, in that order).

 

My GK Captain is relatively new, and I burned a LOT of flags to get him to 14 during the Anniversary; those last 4 for IFHE will be looooong.

 

~B

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6 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

240s on Henri might be an exception for breaking the 50mm mark. Right on the money about the 203s, though.

As great as it may sound to penetrate 50mm of armor, how often do you use this? And don't forget that you have to give up four commander points for this, points that could be used for CE, AFT, EM and AR or any other combination that is viable.

It is nowhere near as useful as it is on 152mm guns, which go from penetrating almost nothing to penetrating Battlership bows that are two Tiers higher.

3 minutes ago, Beornotns said:

I understand this, however, what do you think about Gneisenau or Großer Kurfürst secondary builds?  Flamu had a video about the damage secondaries had on even bow on tier X BBs and the results were impressive, and the fire chances, though lessened, still resulted in the same number of fires, though fire damage was less.

 

It basically makes a very limited build though, as you have 2 1pt. skills, 1 2pt, 1 3pt. and 3 4pt. skills (Advanced Firing Training, Manual Secondaries and IFHE, in that order).

 

My GK Captain is relatively new, and I burned a LOT of flags to get him to 14 during the Anniversary; those last 4 for IFHE will be looooong.

 

~B

With the recent IFHE change it may be useful, though as you pointed out already such a build would be very limited towards the Secondaries. That's why I would not use IFHE, though I lack a Kurfürst with IFHE to be absolutely sure.

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34 minutes ago, SireneRacker said:

As great as it may sound to penetrate 50mm of armor, how often do you use this? And don't forget that you have to give up four commander points for this, points that could be used for CE, AFT, EM and AR or any other combination that is viable.

It is nowhere near as useful as it is on 152mm guns, which go from penetrating almost nothing to penetrating Battlership bows that are two Tiers higher.

With the recent IFHE change it may be useful, though as you pointed out already such a build would be very limited towards the Secondaries. That's why I would not use IFHE, though I lack a Kurfürst with IFHE to be absolutely sure.

Khabarovsk has a 50mm plate and you would also be able to pen the deck of the German Battleships, except for the two sections of 80mm on the Friedrich.  It wouldn't be a efficient use of 4 points but there are plenty of uses for it at least. 

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6 minutes ago, biggie1447 said:

Khabarovsk has a 50mm plate and you would also be able to pen the deck of the German Battleships, except for the two sections of 80mm on the Friedrich.  It wouldn't be a efficient use of 4 points but there are plenty of uses for it at least. 

Against Khabarovsk the usage of AP is usually more recommended, as the fuse will arm and you get 1/3 penetrations. And the Germans have such a huge superstructure that is as large as a small city, so the deck HE penetration is not that needed. And if that ship goes bow on you can still penetrate the bow.

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1 minute ago, SireneRacker said:

Against Khabarovsk the usage of AP is usually more recommended, as the fuse will arm and you get 1/3 penetrations. And the Germans have such a huge superstructure that is as large as a small city, so the deck HE penetration is not that needed. And if that ship goes bow on you can still penetrate the bow.

Hey like I said, not efficient but there is a use.

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This skill is probably the best on 100mm guns which are highly niche & only specialized for 2 ships, Akuzuki & 100mm Harekazes. 100mm guns cannot penetrate T8 & up BB superstructures along with angled DDs or any manner. With IFHE you can pen said superstructure & DDs on any angle (that's not a Khab).

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I will accept any doubloon donations to help with resetting my 19-pointer ARP :Smile-_tongue:

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6 hours ago, SireneRacker said:

No. No IFHE for any gun above 180mm, period.

Your HE Penetration without IFHE is above 32mm, IFHE will bring it to somewthing between 40-50mm. So no gain whatsoever that would justify the fire Chance loss and the loss of four commander Points.

3rd'ed

IFHE is for 5 guns in the game: 155mm Mogami, 152mm guns, 130mm, 127mm, and 100mm. I don't even feel it's worthwhile in 90% of cases on the 180mm but it might be a weak 6th. 203's can already pen all armor they see up to and including the 32mm bows of T10 BB's.

Also, as OP seems confused on the matter, angle of impact has zero, 0, to do with whether or not HE does damage. It has '100%' normalization, and thus can be assumed, regardless of real angle, to always be impacting at 90 degrees to the surface. For a practical example, the 152mm guns on Cleveland with IFHE hitting the 32mm bow of the Yamato will do damage at *any* angle (go test it yourself in the training room), even if AP would bounce 100% of the time. That's what makes IFHE so vital to 6" cruisers, as it basically means you can damage the entirety of every ship in the game with exception to belt armor.

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Agree with the not useful comments above.  I'd rather use those points on something else.

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8 hours ago, SireneRacker said:

As great as it may sound to penetrate 50mm of armor, how often do you use this? And don't forget that you have to give up four commander points for this, points that could be used for CE, AFT, EM and AR or any other combination that is viable.

It is nowhere near as useful as it is on 152mm guns, which go from penetrating almost nothing to penetrating Battlership bows that are two Tiers higher.

 

Except that the Khab can easily just angle away slightly, keep all of his guns on target and now you are just bouncing off of that side armor. 

 

It also allows you to pen the midship weather decks of all German Battleships that the Henri will see, plus Moskva. 

 

Other than that, yeah no IFHE on any 203mm cruiser. 

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5 hours ago, grizzly95 said:

Except that the Khab can easily just angle away slightly, keep all of his guns on target and now you are just bouncing off of that side armor. 

 

It also allows you to pen the midship weather decks of all German Battleships that the Henri will see, plus Moskva. 

 

Other than that, yeah no IFHE on any 203mm cruiser. 

 

So for the case that one ship (and not even one of the more common ones at T10) faces you and does one specific tactic you might need IFHE, that sounds situational to justify the loss of four commander points.

 

The midship weather decks of German ships are also rather questionable, for two reasons. For one it assumes that you do not fire at the superstructure, which is huge. Secondly this affects only four ships (though Friedrich der Große is only half affected because of the 80mm armor), how is that different from the 'benefit' of IFHE on 203mm guns, which can then penetrate the weather decks of the USN T8+ BBs? 

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Khaba fire first then AP. Basic play. Keep shooting HE on burning BB just not enough punishment.Need AP too while  poor BB burning.

I put IFHE on khaba cause stupid concealment just waste time. Fire never stop doing its job.

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15 hours ago, SireneRacker said:

 

So for the case that one ship (and not even one of the more common ones at T10) faces you and does one specific tactic you might need IFHE, that sounds situational to justify the loss of four commander points.

 

The midship weather decks of German ships are also rather questionable, for two reasons. For one it assumes that you do not fire at the superstructure, which is huge. Secondly this affects only four ships (though Friedrich der Große is only half affected because of the 80mm armor), how is that different from the 'benefit' of IFHE on 203mm guns, which can then penetrate the weather decks of the USN T8+ BBs? 

 

Bismarck has a 50mm deck from in front of the A turret to all the way behind the Y turret. Easily hit and quite common actually. Same with the Kurfurst. 

 

Fat Freddy is the outlier, but to my own experience using IFHE on the Henri you still get noticeably more pens than shatters with it against them. Khab obviously has the 50mm that takes up nearly all of the side of the ship, and Moskva also has a 50mm from the very front of A turret barbette to the back of the Y turret barbette with a quite narrow, if tall superstructure.

 

I guess the better question is what would you take in its place? AFT when there are very few carriers around right now? BFT + a one point skill?

 

I have a

 

PT, PM

HA, EM, LS

DE

IFHE, CE

 

on my Henri, and i find it hard to honestly justify spending those 4 points on anything else that is not AFT even with the dearth of carriers right now. I had considered doing just that if they had gone through with the -8% to fire chance change to it, but they did not obviously. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, grizzly95 said:

Bismarck has a 50mm deck from in front of the A turret to all the way behind the Y turret. Easily hit and quite common actually. Same with the Kurfurst. 

 

Fat Freddy is the outlier, but to my own experience using IFHE on the Henri you still get noticeably more pens than shatters with it against them. Khab obviously has the 50mm that takes up nearly all of the side of the ship, and Moskva also has a 50mm from the very front of A turret barbette to the back of the Y turret barbette with a quite narrow, if tall superstructure.

The gain of IFHE on 240mm is actually quite comparable to the gain of IFHE on 203mm, you can count the ships on one hand.

240mm + IFHE allows you to pen the following five ships: Bismarck, Tirpitz, Freddy, Curry and Khabarovsk

203mm + IFHE allows you to pen the following ships: Alabama, NC, Iowa, Mighty Mo, Montana and some smaller vessels that have 40mm at some places like the German CA bows

Sure IFHE on 240mm can be useful in some cases, but so is IFHE on 203mm.

 

7 hours ago, grizzly95 said:

I guess the better question is what would you take in its place? AFT when there are very few carriers around right now? BFT + a one point skill?

 

I have a

 

PT, PM

HA, EM, LS

DE

IFHE, CE

 

on my Henri, and i find it hard to honestly justify spending those 4 points on anything else that is not AFT even with the dearth of carriers right now. I had considered doing just that if they had gone through with the -8% to fire chance change to it, but they did not obviously.

Honestly, I am not that much into the French Cruisers. Still having the Emile in my port, zero motivation to grind further though I like the aesthetics of the Charles if nothing else.

What you could pick is SI for the extra Speed Boost and Heal, and then go for another 1-point skill. Though that of course depends on the playstyle, other modifications, and the gameplay of high Tier French botes.

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On 9/24/2017 at 2:41 AM, SireneRacker said:

The gain of IFHE on 240mm is actually quite comparable to the gain of IFHE on 203mm, you can count the ships on one hand.

240mm + IFHE allows you to pen the following five ships: Bismarck, Tirpitz, Freddy, Curry and Khabarovsk

203mm + IFHE allows you to pen the following ships: Alabama, NC, Iowa, Mighty Mo, Montana and some smaller vessels that have 40mm at some places like the German CA bows

Sure IFHE on 240mm can be useful in some cases, but so is IFHE on 203mm.

 

Honestly, I am not that much into the French Cruisers. Still having the Emile in my port, zero motivation to grind further though I like the aesthetics of the Charles if nothing else.

What you could pick is SI for the extra Speed Boost and Heal, and then go for another 1-point skill. Though that of course depends on the playstyle, other modifications, and the gameplay of high Tier French botes.

 

 

Yeah, but there is only one ship that has the 240mm guns, and she sees all 5 of those ships while a good number of the 203mm cruisers won't outside of fail div. There are also quite a lot of Kurfurst's & Co at T10 so like i said, i think it is worth it but not everyone does.

 

As for the tree itself, having played from the T3 to 10 (except for 6) the line only begins to become good if you will with the Algerie. Charles Martel and Saint Louis are great despite being essentially repeats though with trolly armor, great guns, excellent mobility (especially when on speed boost, which can last for 4 1/2 minutes i think with the special upgrade) with a play style i liken to Zao myself. Go out there, sling HE and dance around all of the enemy shells with your speed, rudder shift and decent (iirc) turning circle, i find it quite fun myself. 

 

Here, have a picture 

 

Spoiler

The guns are really good, same as upgraded Charles

 

e4mBzB3.jpg

 

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On 25.9.2017 at 9:25 AM, grizzly95 said:

Yeah, but there is only one ship that has the 240mm guns, and she sees all 5 of those ships while a good number of the 203mm cruisers won't outside of fail div. There are also quite a lot of Kurfurst's & Co at T10 so like i said, i think it is worth it but not everyone does.

 

The only 8 inch Cruiser that does not face ships with 40mm armor is the Furutaka, everyone else is quite likely to face North Carolina, Alabama and soon that other SC-class ship I can't spell.

 

On 25.9.2017 at 9:25 AM, grizzly95 said:

As for the tree itself, having played from the T3 to 10 (except for 6) the line only begins to become good if you will with the Algerie. Charles Martel and Saint Louis are great despite being essentially repeats though with trolly armor, great guns, excellent mobility (especially when on speed boost, which can last for 4 1/2 minutes i think with the special upgrade) with a play style i liken to Zao myself. Go out there, sling HE and dance around all of the enemy shells with your speed, rudder shift and decent (iirc) turning circle, i find it quite fun myself. 

 

I do not doubt the potential that these ships have, please don't think so. It's just that I feel like other Cruisers are already quite good when it comes to HE spam, my Shchors for example is. Or the entire IJN CA line. And of course the playstyle must be somewhat appealing for me (ask my Iron Duke why she still only has four battles :D ).

I'll eventually grind the French ships, if only to get another beautiful ship (Charles) into my port and to get rid of the Speed Modules that are collecting dust.

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