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NeutralState

DD vs DD, a Knife Fight with No Winners.

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DD vs DD fight is extremely unrewarding. Not only it exposes both DDs to enemy concentrated fires, the winner usually coming out of the engagement severely wounded or even near death. There really should be some way to give DDs more confidence and encourage them to engage other DDs.

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DD knife fights only really ever happen when two DDs bumble into each other and neither captain is smart enough to run away.

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29 minutes ago, NeutralState said:

There really should be some way to give DDs more confidence and encourage them to engage other DDs.

There is. It's called a skill ceiling. 

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I love it when you're away from everyone and can do a 1v1.

It has a lot to do with skill, but yeah there's no reason to do it with others around.

Hell, even a BB can take half your health at 17km+, so better make sure y'all are behind an island 20km away. :Smile_teethhappy:

Edited by Wulfgarn

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Depends on the DD. My Sims can dismantle an enemy DD in a knife fight. My Leningrad? Notsomuch. Not every DD is the same.

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DD vs DD gun fights are really costly for the thin, poor HE pool you got on puny dds, that's true.

But since both have really pathetic hit points, any advantage of damage output can make a big difference in the outcome of the fight.

Which is why every player like me that have any sense of what they are doing will try to help you to eliminate the enemy dd as quickly as e possible!

Roll with your team, force at least one of the stealthier, more maneuverable cruisers on your team to support you, because just a few salvos from a cruiser on either side can determine if you can withdraw from a fight with 3/4 of your health left, or being shot dead outright...

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22 minutes ago, Wulfgarn said:

I love it when you're away from everyone and can do a 1v1.

It has a lot to do with skill, but yeah there's no reason to do it with others around.

Hell, even a BB can take half your health at 17km+, so better make sure y'all are behind an island 20km away. :Smile_teethhappy:

Two identical DDs, far away from the fight, meets each other at camo range.

Enlighten me about this "skill" that can tip the fight decisively and reliably. inbeforeislowdownalittlebittomakehimmiss1salvo. It's a glorified HP trade, whomever gets a good roll a few times wins. That's it.

Edited by NeutralState

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I like losing HP in my dds, gives me faster reload on everything as long as I don't die.

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All engagements are about trading HP. The real issue is how many ships on either side of the team actually give enough of a damn to shoot at the destroyer that is spotted.

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32 minutes ago, NeutralState said:

Two identical DDs, far away from the fight, meets each other at camo range.

Enlighten me about this "skill" that can tip the fight decisively and reliably. inbeforeislowdownalittlebittomakehimmiss1salvo. It's a glorified HP trade, whomever gets a good roll a few times wins. That's it.

But it is about landing your salvos. You don't even get to the "good roll" part unless you can land the bulk of each of your salvos. You'd be surprised how many players in a DD don't even attempt to maneuver in a knife fight. Better yet you got players than for whatever reason try desperately to get off a torp salvo while the other guy is shredding him with guns. So yes there is skill involved. 

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30 minutes ago, NeutralState said:

Two identical DDs, far away from the fight, meets each other at camo range.

Enlighten me about this "skill" that can tip the fight decisively and reliably. inbeforeislowdownalittlebittomakehimmiss1salvo. It's a glorified HP trade, whomever gets a good roll a few times wins. That's it.

Don't pick fights you cannot win decisively. Either through good positioning, help from friendlies or player skill. If you cannot win without trading lots of HP, it is best to run away until the situation changes, so that you have an advantage.

Since this is a "team" game, it's perfectly okay to be smart and rely on your team to gain an advantage over your opponent.

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46 minutes ago, NeutralState said:

Two identical DDs, far away from the fight, meets each other at camo range.

Enlighten me about this "skill" that can tip the fight decisively and reliably. inbeforeislowdownalittlebittomakehimmiss1salvo. It's a glorified HP trade, whomever gets a good roll a few times wins. That's it.

Not exactly sure what you're asking for. Have you never 1v1 in DDs?

This game has a lot to do with skill, but it depends on what Line and Ship Type you're in. There isn't some magic "thing to do" in every situation, but those that main in any of the Ship Types for any amount of time can fall back on their experiences.

You see an island, you duck behind it and stop a few seconds to see the enemy torps go by. You play to the Ships strengths and your enemies weakness. If I'm in an IJN and I'm being chased by a gunboat, I'll duck behind an island and wait. Using RPF, I can see which side hes coming in on and let my fish swim and catch him as he comes around the corner. When you are approaching another DD and he's detected, you fire torps off in the direction that you think he's gonna turn when he sees you. When he turns to engage, you're torps are already there and he eats them.

It's just stuff that like that you learn as you go. It's not really something you can teach someone. It's not all about just mad dog blasting someone.

 

 

Edited by Wulfgarn

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12 minutes ago, Vekta408 said:

But it is about landing your salvos. You don't even get to the "good roll" part unless you can land the bulk of each of your salvos. You'd be surprised how many players in a DD don't even attempt to maneuver in a knife fight. Better yet you got players than for whatever reason try desperately to get off a torp salvo while the other guy is shredding him with guns. So yes there is skill involved. 

So your idea of "skill" is wishing your opponent's worse than you. That's... one way to deal with it I guess.

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1 hour ago, NeutralState said:

Two identical DDs, far away from the fight, meets each other at camo range.

Enlighten me about this "skill" that can tip the fight decisively and reliably. inbeforeislowdownalittlebittomakehimmiss1salvo. It's a glorified HP trade, whomever gets a good roll a few times wins. That's it.

You kite, you dodge, and you make sure that your salvos hit

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1 hour ago, NeutralState said:

Two identical DDs, far away from the fight, meets each other at camo range.

Enlighten me about this "skill" that can tip the fight decisively and reliably. inbeforeislowdownalittlebittomakehimmiss1salvo. It's a glorified HP trade, whomever gets a good roll a few times wins. That's it.

It's around 2:30am and I'm dog tired, but this battle came to mind. This isn't exact mind you, but something I could put out there to give you an idea. Will take a few for Youtube to clean it up.

Threw out torps I thought he would go. Did a poor job at it, but I figured he would turn to my right. I figured he used his hydro since he turned well in advance.

Slowed down so I could keep him spotted. My det is 5.4km btw.

Positioned behind island and watched my RPF for which side he was going.

Nailed him, albeit I waited until I saw him in this particular battle.

This isn't exactly what I would call a knife fight, but as I said its a vid I first thought of, but tactics can be used in that situation.

 

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2 hours ago, MrDeaf said:

Don't pick fights you cannot win decisively. Either through good positioning, help from friendlies or player skill. If you cannot win without trading lots of HP, it is best to run away until the situation changes, so that you have an advantage.

Since this is a "team" game, it's perfectly okay to be smart and rely on your team to gain an advantage over your opponent.

And as a dd you possess the ability to pick your fights like no other ship.

 

As someone else mentioned, dd knife fights happen mostly by accident when they blindly stumble over each other.

 

Situational awareness, to include knowing the likely routes of enemy ships as well as your own support, will avoid these knife fights unless you have the advantage and want to engage.

 

Dds who get stuck in knife fights strike me as being as oblivious to the situation as bbs who get ambushed from a dd hiding behind a corner.  I.e. you deserve what you get.

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6 hours ago, NeutralState said:

So your idea of "skill" is wishing your opponent's worse than you. That's... one way to deal with it I guess.

If "skill" doesn't involve being more skilled than the guy you're fighting in one way or another than what is "skill" in any sense of the word? 

There is someone that is better than you in the game. There is someone that is better than me in the game. There will always be another person that is better than the next guy that is also better than me and you. Of course there is going to be someone that is "worse" than me you or anyone else. 

What is so wrong with you that this simple concept escapes you so easily that the mere thought of this makes you so negative? :Smile_facepalm:

 

Edited by Vekta408

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Don't fight an even battle.  Conserve HP, keep your speed down for auto smoke concealment moment its activated.  IF you both get spotted wait for him to fire first, if you both are holding your gun fire watch the number of people aiming at you, if it gets heavy smoke up.. 

 

Leave the cloud drop torps and wait for backup while contesting the cap.

 

Outside of situations were you have a friendly cruiser with Radar / Hydro or a DD with hydro, just be patient and wait for the red DD to try to dance on uneven terms. 

 

I know your a good player Neutral so I feel kinda silly telling you stuff you probably already know. I just keep thinking to myself.

 

"Only fight an even battle if you have absolutely no choice" 

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9 hours ago, NeutralState said:

DD vs DD fight is extremely unrewarding. Not only it exposes both DDs to enemy concentrated fires, the winner usually coming out of the engagement severely wounded or even near death. There really should be some way to give DDs more confidence and encourage them to engage other DDs.

Unrewarding ?? You sunk a enemy ship - and a very important one - and now you are free to move around the map, cap, spot, ambush. 

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OP, start equipping your DD's with Adrenaline rush. If you get into a fight early and come out with 2-3k hp left you have great cool downs on your  torps. SE is also a skill that you should be running on your DDs in many cases.

 

Also as it has been pointed out, you may be playing your DDs with the wrong mind set. IF you are engaging in early DD direct guns fights by choice and are not a USN or KM DD then you should be looking to correct your strategy not the game mechanics. USN and KM DDs love to knife fight, they are about the only DDs that do. RU Dds much preffer engagements between 7-10km and until you get higher up into the tiers with your IJN boats you should avoid any and all prolonged engagements involving guns. Using guns in your IJN DDs is about using them as a deterrent or a weapon of last resort or to punish low to mid tier battleships that have thier guns pointed in any direction but yours.

 

I took a quick look at the ships you play and based on that I'd say your issue is that you are pretty exclusively an IJN DD player...in that case yeah you're right, any knife fights you get into will generally be unrewarding. A massive draw back to IJN DDs is their limited options in aggressively taking cap points. IJN DDs may have good gun performance but their rate of fire makes any shots you take that miss very punishing and in the lower tiers you are held back by gun rotation making it very difficult to trade shots with any skilled player in any other type of DD. You have a lot of games in your T6 IJN DD, a mutsuki is no gun boat, for someone who plays so much DD you REALLY REALLY should branch out so you can get a broader perspective. It looks like you are up to T7 in your USN DDs....keep going USN DDs from T8+ are wonderful machines and IMO the most versatile DDs in the game. 

 

As a very general rule, USN and KM DDs can go into any cap they want and in general should be the only DDs rushing in to a cap, RU and IJN DDs are much better served by approaching caps but not entering them right away. Also keep the enemy teams DD composition should be dictating your play style. If you are on a team with 2 torp boats and 1 gun boat and the other team is 2 or 3 gun boats, you are going to have a very hard time capping anything.  

 

I pretty much stopped playing IJN DDs all together due to their hardships in contesting caps in random battles. 

 

 

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Give me a fast ship, for I intend to go in harms way.

John Paul Jones.

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9 hours ago, The_first_harbinger said:

 

Roll with your team, force at least one of the stealthier, more maneuverable cruisers on your team to support you...

 

Did that last night in my New Orleans. Friendly DD had enemy lit, so I closed from a different angle. Enemy launched torps, so friendly DD broke off. As soon as the enemy went dark trying to escape, (at 7km) I lit up the radar. By the time the radar went down, the friendly DD was charging back in to keep the enemy spotted. Enemy couldn't decide who to respond to, and we kinda had him corralled.

 

I love it when you get those impromptu moments of near-perfect teamwork without any communication.

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10 hours ago, NeutralState said:

DD vs DD fight is extremely unrewarding. Not only it exposes both DDs to enemy concentrated fires, the winner usually coming out of the engagement severely wounded or even near death. There really should be some way to give DDs more confidence and encourage them to engage other DDs.

 

Comes with the territory.  DD vs DD Knife fights tend to be mutually destructive.  I don't have a problem with this.  The key, when you can help it, is entering a knife fight only when you have an advantage (the other guy is already distracted or doesn't know you're coming, you have ready backup, etc).  A fair fight is for suckers.

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