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Prinz Eugen suggested buff

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Hello hello...
i want to be brief

 

Prinz Eugen have a beautiful design, and is a rock between cruisers, but like everyone says, the HE and cadency is really poor, i dont want to talk about how to use the ship, I have a few battles in this ship (+195 Battles - PR: 2301 for now) I found it frustraction sometimes, all the rest of premium ships have a distingtive fight mode or a torrent configuration which works and those ships can aport that personality in battle in form of a smokescreen, radar, endless AA, a full foward torrent configuration, repair party. and more. but the prinz eugen is not even a ship that you can take into a competitve battle like clan wars or rank battles.
The rest of the premium cruiser T8 are a good choise for a competitive battle. but this ship has already something good which can be used for make the ship more competitive without being overpowered
 

  • In real life

 

In the operation Rheinübung the Prinz Eugen took a important role when the bismarck lost her principal radar in battle agains the cruisers Suffolk & Norfolk
after the disengage, prinz eugen took the lead guiding the bismarck with reconnaissance radar.

Prinz Eugen was the only cruiser of her class equipped with an advanced FuMO set and is cleary visible in-game compared to the admiral hipper-class.
 

prinz-eugen.jpg
 

  • In game...

in all the servers...the prinz eugen have the most low stats in damage deal... is clear is not a ship for deal damage, no with only 4x2 of 203mm with low fire chance and 13s of reaload
in all the servers the prinz eugen have a low win rate... the ship is not key for determinate a victory like one with smoke, radar o high cadency.
8
I dont suggest to make the ship OP, but i think could be more useful to the team if the ship can equip a radar consumible, the prinz doesnt own a good cadency, so will not insta exterminate sneaky ships. but could make a better job as escort ship spotting sneaky destroyers and cruisers than using the hydroacustic search. , which will probably turn a little useless since the new smokescreen mechanics. also could be more critical in a T10 battle, where can compensate the lack of fire power


So, What I suggest is add radar consumible to the prinz eugen, with 30s is fine, this is just 2 salvos of 8 shells, but is enough for the team to take some action or indentify the actual position of a close ship. 
 

and yeah, c'mon wargaming, is a premium ship, is not even better than the admiral hipper in performance statistics. :cap_hmm::cap_like:

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5 minutes ago, SoulessEgo said:

and yeah, c'mon wargaming, is a premium ship, is not even better than the admiral hipper in performance statistics. :cap_hmm::cap_like:

kay, I see what you did there!

n0lOWtL.png&key=0f10b33f710f30a14f708876

I know how you feel. The Hipper class are truly beautiful ships in game, but their poor performance just don't make me want to play it...

 

 

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The problem with the Prinz Eugen (and hipper by extension) is that it's a cruiser that doesn't do cruiser things well.  

 

  • It's abysmally bad at hunting DDs; primarily due to its low rate of fire, limited gun count, sluggish maneuverability and poor concealment.  
  • Additionally, it's not a good long-range harasser, due to its low DPM and awful fire chance.  It's also rather easy to hit at range, because she's massive and extremely slow for a cruiser.
  • She's not a particularly good support ship, because its anti air is serviceable, but not great.  This is further compounded by the preference for German hydro, which means the Eugen is rarely going to mount defensive fire.

About the only thing Eugen is decent at is dueling against other cruisers.  In that role, her HE damage hurts her considerably, as any bow-in cruiser will easily bounce her lightweight AP rounds.  Still, she has a good torpedo set with good arcs, and can punish broadside cruisers with powerful alpha strikes.

 

Of course, if I want to sail around and alpha-strike cruisers, I'm not going to take the prinz eugen or hipper.  I'm going to take a battleship and reduce my risk of being instantly deleted from the game.  And therein lies the problem; she's a cruiser trying to fill a battleship role and failing at it.

 

For illustration, let's compare her to a battleship that plays like a cruiser, and succeeds at the job.

 

Prinz Eugen:

  • Top speed: 32 knots
  • Rudder shift time (upgraded) 8.7 seconds
  • Turning radius: 770 meters
  • Guns: 8x8"
  • Reload: 13 seconds
  • Traverse: 22 seconds

 

Scharnhorst:

  • Top speed: 30 knots
  • Rudder shift time (upgraded) 11.6 seconds
  • Turning radius: 800 meters
  • Guns: 9x11"
  • Reload: 20 seconds
  • Traverse: 25 seconds
  •  

The Scharnhorst sacrifices very little when compared to the Eugen, but she gains a great deal.  Differences in turning radius, speed and traverse are negligible.  For an extra 3 seconds of rudder shift, I gain a 350mm main belt.  And for an extra 7 seconds of reloading time, I gain an extra gun and an additional 3 inches of shell diameter.  Not to mention, I'm making these favorable tradeoffs in a tier seven; a tier that sees very favorable matchmaking most of the time.  

 

The Hipper and Prinz both need some serious love, if they want to be taken seriously.  Currently, they're little more than a liability for any team unfortunate enough to be sandbagged with one by MM.  They're dead weight, to be carried.  It's sad, because I really, -really- tried to learn to love these ships.

Edited by DerKrampus

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I think all Eugen needs is a small RoF buff, and/or the ability to mount both DF and hydro at the same time.

Other than that, I'd say she only needs what most other T8 CAs need, at least one charge of repair party, just to strengthen T8 cruiser staying power a bit more.

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17 minutes ago, DerKrampus said:

 She's not a particularly good support ship, because its anti air is serviceable, but not great.  This is further compounded by the preference for German hydro, which means the Eugen is rarely going to mount defensive fire.

 

Just saying, but the Eugen surpasses all of the Tech Tree Cruisers at her Tier in terms of AA, with the exception being the Hipper where they are practically equal (8 dps at 2km are not noticable or in any way relevant). Also the AA works womders if it's in combination with Manual AA, since a big part of the punch come from the 105mm guns.

 

And you should not forget that the German Cruisers are very strong in brawlings. Eugen is practically immune to citadel hits at close range, the Torpedoes have good firing angles and if you mount Hydro you also have the superior German Hydro going for you.

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58 minutes ago, awiggin said:

Why would you buy a ship that's well known as an under performer to begin with? :cap_hmm:

I handled well the cruisers, is what i Ithink, and the prinz eugen is famous for being a bad cruiser as the same is famous for been in sale in special occasions, so i pextected a buff soon, as they did with NO, Mogami and american BBs. ships which statadistics were handled bad
and here we are...

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10 minutes ago, SireneRacker said:

Eugen surpasses all of the Tech Tree Cruisers at her Tier in terms of AA

No, is clear... the Russian-Smoke-Cruiser have the better AA in a better max range. btw, AA is really useless if you are in a match T10 without cv, something normal in random battles. even the Kutu cant make good use of the AA the major time of the match. 
for other hand, you lose AA capability when you try to handle the damage received. Long-range AA are more relevant today. 

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1 hour ago, SoulessEgo said:

No, is clear... the Russian-Smoke-Cruiser have the better AA in a better max range. btw, AA is really useless if you are in a match T10 without cv, something normal in random battles. even the Kutu cant make good use of the AA the major time of the match. 
for other hand, you lose AA capability when you try to handle the damage received. Long-range AA are more relevant today. 

That's why I said 'Tech Tree Cruisers', the AA ranking at T8 Cruisers (discounting DF) looks roughly like that:

- Kutuzow
- Hipper/Eugen
- Edinburgh
- New Orleans
- Chapayev
- Charles Martel
- Mogami
- Atago

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I am agree with this. 

I think prinz has the worse balance in the game and it is a premium ship, so what is the point, buy a worse hipper?, come on wg prinz need a buff. Kutu has smoke, atago has heal and prinze well prinze is beauty just that.

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Unless it's Atago or Kutuzov, all Tier VIII Cruisers suck.  Their firepower isn't better than Tier VII, they face far stronger Tier IX-X Cruisers.  The BBs of Tier VIII+ get much more powerful.  BBs scale well in power every tier you go, Cruisers don't and Tier VIII goes with Tier V as low points in Cruiser play.

 

Kutuzov gets smoke and Pre-AFT/BFT Nerf CL gunnery.  Atago gets amazing stealth to go with repair party, as well as tons of gun & torpedo power.  The others don't have these gimmicks.  Edinburgh has smoke and repair party, but is straddled with RN CL AP that is negated by angling and not having the heavy torpedo power of Neptune and Minotaur, nor even having good AA.  Again, unless it's Kutuzov or Atago, Tier VIII Cruisers are simply in a bad place.  I don't like playing them.  They're not even great when they're top tier.  A Tier VI BB will still 1-shot any of these Tier VIII Cruisers if given the chance.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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Add radar to prinz eugen , he cant health repair, he cant powerfull torps as atago, he has garbage HE , radar is as special for P.Eugen or ADD health reapair, on info wows abaut hipper/prinz eugen he say than the cruiser has high in suviver.

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15 hours ago, SoulessEgo said:

Hello hello...
i want to be brief

 

Prinz Eugen have a beautiful design, and is a rock between cruisers, but like everyone says, the HE and cadency is really poor, i dont want to talk about how to use the ship, I have a few battles in this ship (+195 Battles - PR: 2301 for now) I found it frustraction sometimes, all the rest of premium ships have a distingtive fight mode or a torrent configuration which works and those ships can aport that personality in battle in form of a smokescreen, radar, endless AA, a full foward torrent configuration, repair party. and more. but the prinz eugen is not even a ship that you can take into a competitve battle like clan wars or rank battles.
The rest of the premium cruiser T8 are a good choise for a competitive battle. but this ship has already something good which can be used for make the ship more competitive without being overpowered
 

  • In real life

 

In the operation Rheinübung the Prinz Eugen took a important role when the bismarck lost her principal radar in battle agains the cruisers Suffolk & Norfolk
after the disengage, prinz eugen took the lead guiding the bismarck with reconnaissance radar.

Prinz Eugen was the only cruiser of her class equipped with an advanced FuMO set and is cleary visible in-game compared to the admiral hipper-class.
 

prinz-eugen.jpg
 

  • In game...

in all the servers...the prinz eugen have the most low stats in damage deal... is clear is not a ship for deal damage, no with only 4x2 of 203mm with low fire chance and 13s of reaload
in all the servers the prinz eugen have a low win rate... the ship is not key for determinate a victory like one with smoke, radar o high cadency.
8
I dont suggest to make the ship OP, but i think could be more useful to the team if the ship can equip a radar consumible, the prinz doesnt own a good cadency, so will not insta exterminate sneaky ships. but could make a better job as escort ship spotting sneaky destroyers and cruisers than using the hydroacustic search. , which will probably turn a little useless since the new smokescreen mechanics. also could be more critical in a T10 battle, where can compensate the lack of fire power


So, What I suggest is add radar consumible to the prinz eugen, with 30s is fine, this is just 2 salvos of 8 shells, but is enough for the team to take some action or indentify the actual position of a close ship. 
 

and yeah, c'mon wargaming, is a premium ship, is not even better than the admiral hipper in performance statistics. :cap_hmm::cap_like:


Agreed, she actually is a normal Hipper, i didn't wanted to buy a Hipper with a different name and no difference with the normal one, as i remember the Prinz was a good cruiser with Radar, she helped the Bismarck in her battle vs the RN.. The Radar and a serious buff is needed in this beautiful ship.

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After some thought, I actually think that the Prinz and Hipper would benefit more from a heal than from radar.  They really are a bit too big and cumbersome to play the front line of a battle and light-up caps.  A heal, however, would aid the Hipper in surviving until the end of a given battle.  In 1v1 engagements against other cruisers, she really shines.  It's just that with her concealment, her size, etc she's a difficult ship to keep alive until the end at times.

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Hey

I like the Hipper/Prinz Eugen's but I agree they need a little bit of love.  I personally think they need a ROF buff to something around 11-11.5 seconds and with Prinz being a premium, maybe a 1-2 shot heal would make it just different enough from Hipper without being excessive.  Just my thoughts, for those many times when your up-tiered.  

 

Pete

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1 hour ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

I like the Hipper/Prinz Eugen's but I agree they need a little bit of love.  I personally think they need a ROF buff to something around 11-11.5 seconds and with Prinz being a premium, maybe a 1-2 shot heal would make it just different enough from Hipper without being excessive.  Just my thoughts, for those many times when your up-tiered.  

 

Pete

 

I didn't want to mention rate of fire, but yes.  That's really the most crippling thing about those two ships.  Their dpm is too low to be played in a traditional cruiser role, whilst their alpha and survivability are too low to fill the battleship/alpha-striker role.  A rof boost would be a godsend.

 

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Both Hipper and Eugen have decent armor but low concealment . Their ruddershift isn't that great, the rate of fire is...ok and the range seems decent. I really think these 2 ship could receive a buff . When you're top tier as a Hipper you can still do something but when you're in T10 battle, the low concealment doesn't allow the ship to support DD on cap, the armor isn't that great to compensate this weakness, you can't avoid incoming shell  and her HE isn't that good even though it has been buffed.

 

You do have germain hydro but considering the lack of stealth to hunt DD, it's pretty meh to slot Hydro instead of Defensive fire.  So yeah, having heal starting at T8 could help these 2 ships

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Let me say that I like my Hipper. Much more than my other T8 cruisers (except the Mogami).

It's a fire support ship, and an ambush hunter, as the 6 torps per side are inordinately useful around islands and against BBs. And with BFT/AFT, it's murder on T8 and down planes, and even quite respectable against T9 ones. My Hipper has a AA rating of 87, and a 6.5km range on the heavy AA, and that's without MFCAA.

I don't generally hunt DDs in it, though it's got the nice flat arcs to do so at 10km if someone else is spotting.

The other thing people forget is that the Hipper's armor is significantly better than any other T8 cruiser. Yeah, it's still subject to LOL Cits from any BB (because WG hasn't decided that's the serious problem it is).  But you'll not take anywhere near the amount of damage that other CA take from their brethren (or even from DDs).

The Hipper in general is also a real good ship to use again USSR DDs, as it's armor can shrug off most of the pew-pew from them, and the guns are accurate enough to reliably hit a 15km target with 1 shell every salvo (which tends to erase 20% of the DD's hp pool).

Yes, a ROF increase (say from 13 to 12 or 11) would be nice. And 1 or 2 heals would be nice, too. The latter would probably be my preference.

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On ‎20‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 10:40 PM, SoulessEgo said:

Hello hello...
i want to be brief

 

Prinz Eugen have a beautiful design, and is a rock between cruisers, but like everyone says, the HE and cadency is really poor, i dont want to talk about how to use the ship, I have a few battles in this ship (+195 Battles - PR: 2301 for now) I found it frustraction sometimes, all the rest of premium ships have a distingtive fight mode or a torrent configuration which works and those ships can aport that personality in battle in form of a smokescreen, radar, endless AA, a full foward torrent configuration, repair party. and more. but the prinz eugen is not even a ship that you can take into a competitve battle like clan wars or rank battles.
The rest of the premium cruiser T8 are a good choise for a competitive battle. but this ship has already something good which can be used for make the ship more competitive without being overpowered
 

  • In real life

 

In the operation Rheinübung the Prinz Eugen took a important role when the bismarck lost her principal radar in battle agains the cruisers Suffolk & Norfolk
after the disengage, prinz eugen took the lead guiding the bismarck with reconnaissance radar.

Prinz Eugen was the only cruiser of her class equipped with an advanced FuMO set and is cleary visible in-game compared to the admiral hipper-class.
 

prinz-eugen.jpg
 

  • In game...

in all the servers...the prinz eugen have the most low stats in damage deal... is clear is not a ship for deal damage, no with only 4x2 of 203mm with low fire chance and 13s of reaload
in all the servers the prinz eugen have a low win rate... the ship is not key for determinate a victory like one with smoke, radar o high cadency.
8
I dont suggest to make the ship OP, but i think could be more useful to the team if the ship can equip a radar consumible, the prinz doesnt own a good cadency, so will not insta exterminate sneaky ships. but could make a better job as escort ship spotting sneaky destroyers and cruisers than using the hydroacustic search. , which will probably turn a little useless since the new smokescreen mechanics. also could be more critical in a T10 battle, where can compensate the lack of fire power


So, What I suggest is add radar consumible to the prinz eugen, with 30s is fine, this is just 2 salvos of 8 shells, but is enough for the team to take some action or indentify the actual position of a close ship. 
 

and yeah, c'mon wargaming, is a premium ship, is not even better than the admiral hipper in performance statistics. :cap_hmm::cap_like:

Well hello there fellow clan member....

I do agree that both Hipper and Eugen could use a buff, probably better ROF or a decent heal. I don´t think radar would be that usefull because both ships can´t get close enough to enemy DD´s without risk.

Now From what i have seen, Hipper and Eugen are God-like ships when you know how to position yourself behind the BB´s, for example in a división.

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On 9/20/2017 at 9:40 PM, SoulessEgo said:

Hello hello...
i want to be brief

 

Prinz Eugen have a beautiful design, and is a rock between cruisers, but like everyone says, the HE and cadency is really poor, i dont want to talk about how to use the ship, I have a few battles in this ship (+195 Battles - PR: 2301 for now) I found it frustraction sometimes, all the rest of premium ships have a distingtive fight mode or a torrent configuration which works and those ships can aport that personality in battle in form of a smokescreen, radar, endless AA, a full foward torrent configuration, repair party. and more. but the prinz eugen is not even a ship that you can take into a competitve battle like clan wars or rank battles.
The rest of the premium cruiser T8 are a good choise for a competitive battle. but this ship has already something good which can be used for make the ship more competitive without being overpowered
 

  • In real life

 

In the operation Rheinübung the Prinz Eugen took a important role when the bismarck lost her principal radar in battle agains the cruisers Suffolk & Norfolk
after the disengage, prinz eugen took the lead guiding the bismarck with reconnaissance radar.

Prinz Eugen was the only cruiser of her class equipped with an advanced FuMO set and is cleary visible in-game compared to the admiral hipper-class.
 

prinz-eugen.jpg
 

  • In game...

in all the servers...the prinz eugen have the most low stats in damage deal... is clear is not a ship for deal damage, no with only 4x2 of 203mm with low fire chance and 13s of reaload
in all the servers the prinz eugen have a low win rate... the ship is not key for determinate a victory like one with smoke, radar o high cadency.
8
I dont suggest to make the ship OP, but i think could be more useful to the team if the ship can equip a radar consumible, the prinz doesnt own a good cadency, so will not insta exterminate sneaky ships. but could make a better job as escort ship spotting sneaky destroyers and cruisers than using the hydroacustic search. , which will probably turn a little useless since the new smokescreen mechanics. also could be more critical in a T10 battle, where can compensate the lack of fire power


So, What I suggest is add radar consumible to the prinz eugen, with 30s is fine, this is just 2 salvos of 8 shells, but is enough for the team to take some action or indentify the actual position of a close ship. 
 

and yeah, c'mon wargaming, is a premium ship, is not even better than the admiral hipper in performance statistics. :cap_hmm::cap_like:

Very good argument here. Well presented. I hope someone at WG sees this.

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On 9/21/2017 at 0:20 AM, DerKrampus said:

The problem with the Prinz Eugen (and hipper by extension) is that it's a cruiser that doesn't do cruiser things well.  

 

  • It's abysmally bad at hunting DDs; primarily due to its low rate of fire, limited gun count, sluggish maneuverability and poor concealment.  
  • Additionally, it's not a good long-range harasser, due to its low DPM and awful fire chance.  It's also rather easy to hit at range, because she's massive and extremely slow for a cruiser.
  • She's not a particularly good support ship, because its anti air is serviceable, but not great.  This is further compounded by the preference for German hydro, which means the Eugen is rarely going to mount defensive fire.

About the only thing Eugen is decent at is dueling against other cruisers.  In that role, her HE damage hurts her considerably, as any bow-in cruiser will easily bounce her lightweight AP rounds.  Still, she has a good torpedo set with good arcs, and can punish broadside cruisers with powerful alpha strikes.

 

Of course, if I want to sail around and alpha-strike cruisers, I'm not going to take the prinz eugen or hipper.  I'm going to take a battleship and reduce my risk of being instantly deleted from the game.  And therein lies the problem; she's a cruiser trying to fill a battleship role and failing at it.

 

For illustration, let's compare her to a battleship that plays like a cruiser, and succeeds at the job.

 

Prinz Eugen:

  • Top speed: 32 knots
  • Rudder shift time (upgraded) 8.7 seconds
  • Turning radius: 770 meters
  • Guns: 8x8"
  • Reload: 13 seconds
  • Traverse: 22 seconds

 

Scharnhorst:

  • Top speed: 30 knots
  • Rudder shift time (upgraded) 11.6 seconds
  • Turning radius: 800 meters
  • Guns: 9x11"
  • Reload: 20 seconds
  • Traverse: 25 seconds
  •  

The Scharnhorst sacrifices very little when compared to the Eugen, but she gains a great deal.  Differences in turning radius, speed and traverse are negligible.  For an extra 3 seconds of rudder shift, I gain a 350mm main belt.  And for an extra 7 seconds of reloading time, I gain an extra gun and an additional 3 inches of shell diameter.  Not to mention, I'm making these favorable tradeoffs in a tier seven; a tier that sees very favorable matchmaking most of the time.  

 

The Hipper and Prinz both need some serious love, if they want to be taken seriously.  Currently, they're little more than a liability for any team unfortunate enough to be sandbagged with one by MM.  They're dead weight, to be carried.  It's sad, because I really, -really- tried to learn to love these ships.

This completely sums up why I found the Hipper to be excruciatingly painful to play through. She is trying to play at a battleship's game and fails in every conceivable way because of it. You are a cruiser in name only.

 

Fortunately, the Roon and certainly the Hindenburg has saved the line for me, they gain that monstrous dpm, an important component in making a cruiser playable...something the Hipper lacks.

 

Hipper and Eugen need a reload buff to 10s, and one use of a heal by default. 

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On 9/27/2017 at 11:17 PM, SeraphicRadiance said:

This completely sums up why I found the Hipper to be excruciatingly painful to play through. She is trying to play at a battleship's game and fails in every conceivable way because of it. You are a cruiser in name only.

 

Fortunately, the Roon and certainly the Hindenburg has saved the line for me, they gain that monstrous dpm, an important component in making a cruiser playable...something the Hipper lacks.

 

Hipper and Eugen need a reload buff to 10s, and one use of a heal by default. 

Hey

I have to agree with the ROF increase even though I feel 11-11.5 sec. would be reasonable for T8, as for the heal; that would be good if the ROF was not buffed.  But it does need more love; I genuinely like the ship but for some reason, I play the Hipper better than the Prinz Eugen and don't know why really.  Come on wargaming, make it happen, it's easy!

 

Pete

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I agree

 

* Prinz Eugen - Keep the slow rate of fire, but provide radar.  

* Hipper - Improve rate of fire to 11 sec

 

The would make the PE and Hipper unique enough and still be balanced with the other tier 8's

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One issue with all the people clamoring to put radar on an Eugen:

 

Radar has been the sole province of Allied ships in the game (USN, RN, Russian).I cannot think of or recall a single IJN or KM ship in game with radar (I MISS YOU GERMAN HYDRO!). The odds of WG putting radar on the Eugen is virtually nil. 

 

Honestly? Eugen needs 1-1.5s shaved off the reload, and maybe 1s shaved off of rudder shift. Everything else the ship has is fairly balanced in tier (conceal, AA, alpha damage, torps). 

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The game does NOT need more radar. It's horridly broken as is.

That said, I do like the idea of differentiating Hipper from Eugen.

I'd go with a ROF buff for Hipper, and a Heal for Eugen as proper balance.  This gives the Hipper more DPM, while the Eugen more staying power.

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