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AirshipCanon

Honest opinion: High Tier Div

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 T10 should be able to Div up with T9 and T8

Keep +/-1 for all other sets of tiers, but once you get to the high 3, Division rules should be relaxed [T10 can go -2 instead of only -1], and here's why: T8 can, and does quite frequently, see T10. T8s are competitive at this tier. A T10 bringing a T8 into the game, isn't seeing anything unnatural ever, nor can it be used to manipulate [Want top tier always? T10.]

Yes, it will mean said T8s are always getting TX matches, but there's no issue with that: it happens normally anyway.

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The +/- 1 "faildiv" restriction was imposed in order to combat the perception that other people's poor decisions were throwing matches for their teams. While it may be factual that T8s are fine against T10s, the original problem of perception remains, and so too will the restriction.

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3 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

combat the perception that other people's poor decisions were throwing matches for their teams.

Not really, it was implemented because Erie vs Yamato was indeed happening. And other weird such cases-- even the current can see ships outside their normal bracket.

E.G. T4 and T5 Div up, the T4 can be put against T7 because it uses T5 MM. While near cases as such aren't as problematic, an Erie in a TX match is as useful as someone who yolos in the first half minute.

Once you cross into the High 3 territory, that cannot happen. T8 with T9 or T10 cannot see things outside of the T8's normal bracket, where the T8 is just fine in as-is.

Edited by AirshipCanon

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How about no? 

 

I don't want my team to be gimped by an additional tier 8 ship when I'd normally have a tier 9 or 10 in that spot. Doesn't matter that they could have been there anyway, I just don't want a fail dive screwing over the normally mirrored MM. 

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I see nothing wrong with this idea, so long as the tiers are balanced on both sides. Lord knows I've never been seen a game in Yamato or GK that wasn't full of T8 ships anyway. 

Well except that one game that was 4v4 for some reason... that was all T10. Aside from that I've never even seen a game of all T9s and 10s. There's always an 8 in there.... 

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3 minutes ago, _Fantomex_ said:

How about no? 

 

I don't want my team to be gimped by an additional tier 8 ship when I'd normally have a tier 9 or 10 in that spot. Doesn't matter that they could have been there anyway, I just don't want a fail dive screwing over the normally mirrored MM. 

There is no Tier Mirroring outside of highest Tier DD, BB, and CV. Tier count for the team is not mirrored in any manner by the MM.

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3 minutes ago, AirshipCanon said:

There is no Tier Mirroring outside of highest Tier DD, BB, and CV. Tier count for the team is not mirrored in any manner by the MM.

I still don't want to remove the possibility of having a tier 9/10 instead of the tier 8

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Just now, _Fantomex_ said:

I still don't want to remove the possibility of having a tier 9/10 instead of the tier 8

You're gonna get a T8 regardless, seeing as how the vast majority of T10 games are full of them.

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17 minutes ago, AirshipCanon said:

Not really, it was implemented because Erie vs Yamato was indeed happening. And other weird such cases-- even the current can see ships outside their normal bracket.

E.G. T4 and T5 Div up, the T4 can be put against T7 because it uses T5 MM. While near cases as such aren't as problematic, an Erie in a TX match is as useful as someone who yolos in the first half minute.

Once you cross into the High 3 territory, that cannot happen. T8 with T9 or T10 cannot see things outside of the T8's normal bracket, where the T8 is just fine in as-is.

 

I can confirm as I was someone who regularly took my Umikaze into T8+ matches. It's fast reload torps and low detection made it just as effective as any of the other IJN T7-9 DDs at the time.

 

I really miss sinking NC's in my T2 DD...ahh the good ole days.:cap_rambo:

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2 minutes ago, Cpt_RickSchwifty said:

I really miss sinking NC's in my T2 DD...ahh the good ole days.:cap_rambo:

And I really miss laughing my [edited]off when I pushed the radar button as soon as a 6km weenie torp showed up and guaranteed a free kill.

Point being, the change was to combat toxicity resulting from people having an obvious faildiv scapegoat. ACTUAL effectiveness of the ship factors depressingly little into that conversation, but that's how it is.

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I understand your reasoning, but I have to respectfully disagree.  Yes, Tier 8 ships can see Tier 10s.  However, Tier 8s are not guaranteed to see Tier 10s on their own.  They may well be in a match where they are top tier with no Tier 9 or 10s at all.  Conversely, Tier 10s can be in a match with no Tier 8s at all.  They may even be in a match with nothing but Tier 10s.

Neither of those things are true if you division a Tier 10 and a Tier 8.  You are, in fact, guaranteeing that the Tier 8 will see Tier 10s.  Worse, Match Making will treat the division as if it were all Tier 10s, so the team with this division may well end up with the only Tier 8 in the match, a match that might even, otherwise, consist of nothing but Tier 10s.

You could say that Match Maker could be changed to always pull in a Tier 8 for the other team to balance that, but then that creates two problems.

First, it guarantees that some other poor schmuck in a Tier 8 is going to be brought into a 10 match, even when there is sufficient population to fill out Tier 10 matches with no Tier 8s at all.  And the worst part of that is that he ends up being disadvantaged due to a choice someone else is making.  The other side is that it would guarantee that the Tier 10 in the division would always see matches where there were Tier 8s even when the server population was, again, sufficient to put no Tier 8s in with the Tier 10s.  Put another way, allowing that would be a way to guarantee that the Tier 10 was always in matches with -2 match making where, if you solo at Tier 10 or responsibly division at Tier 10 with only equal tier division mates, you would not get that advantage.

On the surface, your idea sounds reasonable, but the fact that a Tier 8 can see Tier 10s is not sufficient reason to allow it.  Just because your division is willing to guarantee the Tier 8 is at +2 and bottom tier does not mean that you have the right to disadvantage your team mates.  And match making cannot be altered to make that fair.  Your decision to "fail division" affects more than just the people in your division no matter how it works out.

 

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36 minutes ago, AirshipCanon said:

There is no Tier Mirroring outside of highest Tier DD, BB, and CV. Tier count for the team is not mirrored in any manner by the MM.

Match Maker attempts to match ships based on tier.  It cannot always create teams completely balanced by tier, so you may see a ship or two mismatched by one tier, but does take tiering into account, so your statement that it is not "mirrored in any manner" is, with all due respect, patently false.

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A division with tier 8 ships in a normal tier 10 game has no effect on the outcome,other than the Blame Game.I wish I took a screen shot of one game I played with two divisions of tier 8 ships {all Bismarck's} while I was in my GK. We won that match.3 Bismarck's each team all from the same Clan.Sync dropped. Hmmmmm  And to think Clans are a good addition. Abuse is going to happen no matter the MM.... I say let the  Divisions expand to six and let the tides of fortune decide the fate. The MM is circumnavigated already. As long as Clans are going to be part of the game why not expand the Divisions? Voice Comms have enraged many by the sync drop effect of game outcomes.Imagine if the Sync Drop clan did get onto the same team.I have been witness to many games where everyone knew each other and all talked as though they have been playing every game together. Even to the point of you died last game before me kind of remarks. Our player base is small but NOT THAT SMALL. This tells you Sync Drops are here to stay.So Let the tier 10's division with tier 8's. 

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Make the Match Maker +-/1 Simple easy fix. Tier 8's do not do fine against tier tens. I don't know why WG can't see this fact. They saw it with 3's and 4's, and promptly did something about it. I think the real reason they don't want to change the MM is the amount of coin they make when people pay to get past the tier 8 grind.

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1 hour ago, AirshipCanon said:

You're gonna get a T8 regardless, seeing as how the vast majority of T10 games are full of them.

Yeah, I'm going to have tier 8's on my team; doesn't mean I want a guaranteed tier 8 on my team.

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