No more tier 5 in Operations? Wait, what?

[kostya3]

I was reading the Other Improvements and Fixes in the latest patchnotes, and this caught my eye:

 

"In response to player requests, we set a tier limit on the ships eligible to take part in Operations to tier VI ships only"

 

Wait, what?

 

I will freely admit, after years of playing PvP games, I simply want to enjoy a game with a PvE environment (and I have been willing to buy Premium ships (Tirpitz, etc)  to play it, and premium time)     Operations were a godsend, and that is what I log in almost every day here to play.  It's my cup of tea, and it doesn't have to be everyone else's favorite.  That's fine.  Though since my clan is a PvE clan, I know I am not the only one.

 

But where is this apparent 'groundswell' of people pushing operations to being only for tier 6? Hell, after a quick search of the Forums with the word: Operations,  all I found were those in favor of having tier 5 available, for example twice in the same thread:

KT09: "I've gotten some tier V/VI ships I wouldn't have spent any time on in random to elite by using them in ops.:

desmo_2: "Operations seem to be a pretty good way to XP up your T5-6, if you need to."

 

And now, half of this will be taken away?

 

Now yes, every tier 6 ship will be better than the tier 5 counterpart in any line in fighting off the bots in a scenario.  BUT IT'S NOT IMPOSSIBLE.  I still constantly win if I, or others, are in tier 5 ships.  And I have come in at the top of the xp list.  You just have to play smarter.  That has been one of the beauties of this mode.  Tier 6 or tier 5 doesn't matter on Defense of Newport Station if you take it and charge into the enemy bots immediately, for example..

 

So yeah, a poor player in a tier 6 ship will last a little longer than if they were in a tier 5 ship, but really by not that much.  They will still always die first or move so far away from the important locations as to be useless either way, no matter what ship they are in.

 

Now the rest I am going to say is based upon the officially posted views of Wargaming about PvE...and all of you can read it in the as its in the World of Warships 2 Year collection for the Revenge of the Bots award, and I quote:

"However, the number of people who like it [Co-Op mode] and the success of the Halloween campaign showed that PvE battles deserve further consideration"

 

Basically there are people here to play basically only PvE, or basically mostly PvE.  Hell, my clan is a PvE clan, and I'm loving it!

Taking away tier 5 from operations will cause a large of amount of frustration and problem (Both from people who are here only for PvE and those who wish to play operations from time to time), such as:

 

1.  Grinding our tier 5s to tier 6s.  Even with a premium account the paltry Co-Op awards makes the move from tier 5 to tier 6 like molasses.  It's one of the largest jumps in the game, and tier 5 is when you start to get MM screwed (can see +2 tiers), making xp even harder to obtain since your life expectancy is shorter.  When Operations came about, and I reached tier 5 in a ship, I felt a sigh of relief as to now I can grind that sucker faster without the tier 5 MM penalty we have all come to 'love'.   
2. Longer wait times.  Less ships available, less amounts of people wanting to spend 75,000 just to re-unlock a ship just to play a mode.
3.  No tier 5 premium or ARP ship can now be used.  I have a Texas that I used to love bringing out in heavy Carrier operations, but no longer, nor can I use all the ARP tier 5 Battleships that I took the time to earn, to build up their captains
4.  Newer players having to wait even longer to even play the mode (til they get their first tier 6 ship, which could tank months for those who play casually) and to only have 1 ship that must wait 30 minutes before playing again?  Not a great way to get those people hooked into the mode, and thus, your game.
5.  You've increased the amount of work people must do in order to even _play_ parts of your game, in what is supposed to be a more relaxed environment.  You have to grind/work to get past that tier 5 now, to get to tier 6, just for the opportunity to play a mod?  Getting to tier 3 is easy enough, tier 3 to tier 4 a bit of effort, tier 4 ships start to get really good and are even more enjoyable to play,  but still have protected MM to make the grind more tolerable.  Again, no one should have to play PvP to play PvE.  Wargaming has admitted to desire of people to play PvE, and I have yet to find a game that on purprosely makes players have to jump through PvP to get to it (in this case, Operations mode)
6.  There are others, but this post is getting long enough.

 

Point is, yeah, once in a blue moon I've seen a player [edited] about tier 5s in their Operation. Usually people just play the game, and we still win.   But the bad players will still play their tier 6 badly, while any player who wants to do well can do just fine with a tier 5 (tier 6 will always be better, but your adjusted operations since Dunkirk _can_ be done with tier 5.  Which was one of the great parts of these Operations and have increased my enjoyment of this game a lot).   So I just don't see it, or have heard about it.

 

Maybe the poll I put up will say otherwise, and that there was more complaining via Tickets than I realized.

 

I mean, I would hate to think that the real reason behind this was that too many people were having an easier, more fun and fulfilling time getting their tier 5s to tier 6 without as much of a frustration dynamic at work that can usually push people (painfully) into spending more money in a micro-transaction environment.

[TheOneAndOnlyHellequin]

No. Most of the ships aren't suited for Scenarios, due to the Tier level, and requirements, of said Scenarios. Only 1 T5 has decent AA, Texas, there are massive numbers of aircraft in Scenarios. For that reason alone, T5 needs to be excluded. It gets worse when people bring T5 DD's in. Aside from the Kam Triplets, T5 DD's are massively at a disadvantage in Scenarios.

 

The differences between tiers 5 and 6 are far more profound than people realize, and those differences are glaringly highlighted in Scenarios. I'd personally prefer it to be T6 and 7, due to the tiers of the ships arrayed against us. I can live with T6.

[VTAdmiral]

The only tier 5s that don't belong in Scenarios are the Dunkirk-specific destroyers Anthony/Cyclone and the carriers Bogue and Zuiho. That's literally it. The others are plenty competitive.

 

Kind of a baffling change. I ground Emerald to Leander through Operations with no problem.

[Skpstr]

Lol and here I thought it meant T6 was going to be the highest tier available. (facepalm)

[Carl]

I think this is a good move, but i'd like to see more scenarios at a wider rnage of tiers too. I want a plane heavy T7 scenario so my atlanta can go nom stuff. And some T5 scenarios would be great for all the reasons mentioned in the OP.

[SgtBeltfed]

For some of the operations, Kongo's are excellent (Namely Operation Killer Whale)

Texas is acceptable for a few of the others (ones that don't require any speed)

The tier 5 CV's don't belong in any of them, same with the DD's and cruisers

 

 

[Dodgy_Cookies]

some are acceptable but others are not. These days it's better after the operations got nerfed but too many people brought stock zuihos/bogues and runied a good thing.

[VTAdmiral]

1 minute ago, SgtBeltfed said:

For some of the operations, Kongo's are excellent (Namely Operation Killer Whale)

Texas is acceptable for a few of the others (ones that don't require any speed)

The tier 5 CV's don't belong in any of them, same with the DD's and cruisers

 

Agreed on many, especially Texas with her AA vs the usually plane-heavy Operations.

 

Kongo was the best choice on Killer Whale, being the fastest tech tree battleship in the tier range (Dunkerque is also good but is a premium).

 

Agreed on carriers, but Nicholas serves the same purpose as Farragut. Same with Gremyaschy/Russian tech tree destroyers. Not sure about Germans. The IJN destroyers aren't very good in any Operation though.

[Kitsunelegend]

I'd rather they have MORE tiers available for operations than taking them out... It seems stupid to limit the pve stuff to so little tiers. Why not make different levels and difficulty for operations to allow higher tier ships, like up to tier 8 or something?

 

Further limiting the already highly limited tiers in operations is just beyond stupid.

[Lert]

While some people might argue that some T5 ships are better suited than others, I can think of very few situations where I'd not rather have a T6 at my side. Just because a Kongo is better suited than an Omaha doesn't mean I'd not rather have a Fuso or a Cleveland watching my back.

So, good change.

[1dennistt]

At first I thought yeah!  Then I thought for every Emile or Furutaka you take out there are Konigsbergs, that are being excluded.  I honestly hate seeing 2 or more DDs worse than Tier V ships in general.  The bots seem to dodge torps too well most of the time to make the DDs as effective as they should be.

 

Also, Kongo and Konig want to take exception to the Tier 5 can't do well in scenarios.  I enjoy seeing either of these on my team (or the ARP Kongo equivalents).  The biggest problem with Texas and NY is that they are slow and require you to know where to go and when to go there, if they are to be effective.

[_Bohica_]

2 minutes ago, Kitsunelegend said:

I'd rather they have MORE tiers available for operations than taking them out... It seems stupid to limit the pve stuff to so little tiers. Why not make different levels and difficulty for operations to allow higher tier ships, like up to tier 8 or something?

 

Further limiting the already highly limited tiers in operations is just beyond stupid.

I agree.

Also I was actually having fun getting my newly earned tier 5 Iron Duke grinded up to tier 6.  Especially the Newport mission, as a Battleship it worked just fine.

[Wombatmetal]

Giving T6 an out from MM  hell is only going to make t5 life harder. 

 

I can see how it is a good change but life at T5 needs help

[SgtBeltfed]

2 minutes ago, Lert said:

While some people might argue that some T5 ships are better suited than others, I can think of very few situations where I'd not rather have a T6 at my side. Just because a Kongo is better suited than an Omaha doesn't mean I'd not rather have a Fuso or a Cleveland watching my back.

So, good change.

I'd rather not a have a New Mexico in Killer Whale over a Kongo.

[1dennistt]

I guess you can't have a fail division (with 5 and 6) in it anymore.  Will have to try this and see.  Might be a way to slip a T5 ship in.

[kostya3]

9 minutes ago, Lert said:

While some people might argue that some T5 ships are better suited than others, I can think of very few situations where I'd not rather have a T6 at my side. Just because a Kongo is better suited than an Omaha doesn't mean I'd not rather have a Fuso or a Cleveland watching my back.

 

As the OP, I definitely made clear that:

"Now yes, every tier 6 ship will be better than the tier 5 counterpart in any line in fighting off the bots in a scenario.  BUT IT'S NOT IMPOSSIBLE.  I still constantly win if I, or others, are in tier 5 ships."

 

So, yes, I'd rather have a tier 6 at my back than a tier 5 too.  But I also would rather have non-Japanese destroyers out there, to not have New Mexicos in missions where speed is important (attack the base, defend the Raptor)  and I would love to have players _stay_ with the fleet, and players actually doing the mission objective, and etc etc etc.  

The latter cannot be controlled.

And my points dealt more with logistics, economy, and OPPORTUNITY for players, as they can still win at tier 5 even though they must play better to get the most out of it.

 

And being that some tier 5s actually _do_ have advantages in some scenarios is a great BONUS....but never my main argument.

[Crucis]

9 minutes ago, Kitsunelegend said:

I'd rather they have MORE tiers available for operations than taking them out... It seems stupid to limit the pve stuff to so little tiers. Why not make different levels and difficulty for operations to allow higher tier ships, like up to tier 8 or something?

 

Further limiting the already highly limited tiers in operations is just beyond stupid.

I disagree ... sorta.  The Operations are designed and balanced for a certain tier.  Bringing in tier 7 or 8 ships into the current operations would be unbalanced and too easy.

What is needed is for new Operations for different tiers.  In theory, I don't mind the idea of a 2 tier group for operations.  I'm just not sure that tier 5/6 is a good pair.  I'm thinking that tiers 4 and 5 might make a good pair.  Ditto for tiers 6 and 7.

[kostya3]

4 minutes ago, Destroyer_Suzukaze said:

Giving T6 an out from MM  hell is only going to make t5 life harder. 

 

Yep, that was one of my main points.

[Crucis]

7 minutes ago, Destroyer_Suzukaze said:

Giving T6 an out from MM  hell is only going to make t5 life harder. 

 

I can see how it is a good change but life at T5 needs help

Tier 5 operations?  Or tier 4-5 operations.

[Kitsunelegend]

2 minutes ago, Crucis said:

I disagree ... sorta.  The Operations are designed and balanced for a certain tier.  Bringing in tier 7 or 8 ships into the current operations would be unbalanced and too easy.

What is needed is for new Operations for different tiers.  In theory, I don't mind the idea of a 2 tier group for operations.  I'm just not sure that tier 5/6 is a good pair.  I'm thinking that tiers 4 and 5 might make a good pair.  Ditto for tiers 6 and 7.

Thats kinda what I meant. Like, have an option for the player to choose what difficulty to play. Like "do I want to play a tier 8 operation or a tier 6 operation today?". That way the operations can be better balanced for higher, or lower, tiered ships with just either increasing the number of bots, their max tier, ship type, or a mix of those.

[1dennistt]

I was hoping that was going to be hard mode, a change in Tier of the ships available to use and fight against.  Maybe now T4-5 would be hard mode without changing the operation at all?  We could still grind out our T5 ships (like Emerald and Emile).  I should have been playing them more, instead of taking the easy path and playing Cleveland/Nurnberg.

[BladedPheonix]

about time they made this change. This problem was very annoying.

[kostya3]

1 minute ago, Crucis said:

Tier 5 operations?  Or tier 4-5 operations.

Although I would love to see this, and tier 6-7 operations (and even operations for tier 8+), the amount of time and resources required to design such is probably damn high.

A bit easier just to turn off this no-to-tier5 filter in the meantime.

 

Also the main argument it seems against tier 5 in Operations is that they are weaker than tier 6...but therefore tier 4 ships will be weaker than tier 5, and tier 6 will be weaker than tier 7 (um, it kinda goes without saying, correct?)

Which in turn creates any further Operation model to be single-tier only, which I do not see a direct demand for yet.

Let alone the problems of design, wait times, player base, opportunities, etc.

 

Perhaps the same Operations can just be changed slightly depending on:  This amount of bot ships and types for the single tier 6 version, this amount for the tier 5 version, this amount for the tier 7 version, etc.

But again, the split in player base and opportunity might be too high. 

Right now, since I work afternoons, I can still get into an Operation at 3am in the morning.  While a Co-Op game usually has plenty of those useless legal bots in them for my taste.   Might have to wait 3-4 minutes, but its usually quicker.

[kostya3]

6 minutes ago, Kitsunelegend said:

Thats kinda what I meant. Like, have an option for the player to choose what difficulty to play. Like "do I want to play a tier 8 operation or a tier 6 operation today?". That way the operations can be better balanced for higher, or lower, tiered ships with just either increasing the number of bots, their max tier, ship type, or a mix of those.

 

I was in the middle of typing the same thing as you posted yours.  But yeah, that is a consideration.

Just will there be enough player base to make it work in the off hours?

 

6 minutes ago, 1dennistt said:

I was hoping that was going to be hard mode, a change in Tier of the ships available to use and fight against.  Maybe now T4-5 would be hard mode without changing the operation at all?  We could still grind out our T5 ships (like Emerald and Emile).  I should have been playing them more, instead of taking the easy path and playing Cleveland/Nurnberg.

Agreed.

[Kitsunelegend]

Just now, kostya3 said:

 

I was in the middle of typing the same thing as you posted yours.  But yeah, that is a consideration.

Just will there be enough player base to make it work in the off hours?

 

Agreed.

I think having a number for that shows the number of people in each tier for operations would help a lot with that. So if on the off hours you see more people playing one tier than the others, you can either choose the one you want which may have less people, or choose to change the tier and play the one with the most amount of players.

 

besides, I've rarely had issues finding a match as it is currently, so I doubt it'd much of an issue.