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OppressorUnion

Story of the Day Graf Zepp DELETES Yamato

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Graf22Zepp.thumb.png.d69d92ace3a9e00b6e7e5e6628d2fffe.png

 

As you see above is a perfect storm for the Graf Zepp.

2 of the 3 Kills were  playing a meta that has gotten popular in this game which is Bow tanking in reverse .

 

       I have played roughly only 10 Games in TEST 1 out of those 10 games 2 have been in the 170k range both with stubborn ships not dodging AP bombs. The ceiling is high right now with Test 1  and the floor is low too. Loosing air superiority can be devastating and down right unplayable but we will get to that.  What made this game different was the one shot of the Yamato the crown jewel of the BB narrative. Park , reverse, whale on people that's what I would do and it works. The only thing you have to worry about is torpedoes usually. So I see no reason not to do a Manuel drop he's singled out no AA cover screening, perfect storm. 3 DB drops perfect 11k, 20k, 69k. Now after this I loose all the DB to 2 fighter squads but it was worth beating him to the punch.

 

This might look powerful but if you take everything into account it doesn't add up to what you looses.

She is strictly anti - Battleship.

DD are almost not targetable

Cruisers can dodge most bombs and receive minimal damage most of the time, each bomb hit is usually 840-2400.

Heavy cruiser can dodge but some times you can catch them going slow it's rare but then you can get some heavy hits. Now is any of this ships are stopped or reversing now things change. 

80% of battles played were tier 10 and the AA can be down right devastating you usually cant even get near cruisers its not worth it in planes lost.

Most of the damage comes from killing Battleships and avoiding cruisers AA

Now most of the  damage is usually mitigated by a full speed  or 24knot+ turn.  On a full dodge against a BB you might land 1 -3  out of 21 bombs , you might see numbers as high as 8400 or as low as 840. On that Manual drop on the Yamato  it was 12 out of 21 which could of netted 100'800 damage. On a average   drop you see 4-9 targets and damage numbers in 8 - 20k range per DB squad if they are NOT TURNING/ dodging.

 What also hurts her a lot is the loss of Air control. What made this game different was the Shokaku lost 2 fighter battles early with some smart CV play with L strafes. This is not always the case. If you loose air control its always a bad game but against a smart opponent it almost unbearable. Now a Smart Lex or shok will make it bad. A Enterprise will make it unplayable. With the sheer volume of fighters its not fun to face a Enterprise.

One of the major Graff weakness the sheer lack of fighters half the amount of Enterprises.

Also the buff they gave to Test 1 is negated by  the enterprise fighters being the same tier.  You can get decimated even if you win every fighter engagement at best you can save your bombs you will leave every game with no fighters playing against a Enterprise.

 

Over 10 games I' am averaging 77,000 damage now that might sound a lot  but on the stat boards I rank  as Great as a CV captain and a equivalent Enterprise captain closes stats wise is  banking in the 94,000 range  that is a 16,000 on average damage difference per battle, between  the only 2 premium 8 CVs that's  almost a 20% difference in damage and remember one can shut down the other. ( if you haven't picked it up yet the Enterprise shuts down the Graf in Air Control)

 

She's a great one trick pony but we need more balance if they allow the CV to switch between AP and HE that's great but I still don't think that would solve the lower damage and lack of air control.

AS I see it now its a see saw between air control and damage. Right now the only Premium we can compare it to is the Enterprise.  How do we average out the damage?

2 ways  add another damage source like torpedoes/dive bombers or reduce drop delay for less misses on AP bombs

Depending on damage given do you give it balance air power with enterprise with 20% buff to durability and ammo or leave it where it is at and buff the  damage output of the ship more.

Spotting normally wins battles and without air control a CV looses a lot of power over the match.

 

That is my review for TEST 1 she is one of few ships that can give you the climax you need and she can also leave you with nothing even when played perfect. Not a girl I would want to throw my money at yet. She still needs Improvement. Very fun Concept

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by OppressorUnion
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I have been exclusively playing a secondary build GZ II and will report my findings once I hit ten games with it.

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10 hours ago, OppressorUnion said:

 On a average   drop you see 4-9 targets and damage numbers in 8 - 20k range per DB squad if they are NOT TURNING/ dodging.

And there is the rub, only effective against BB afkers or BB reverse bow tankers, anyone actually playing the game is immune to our GZ1 elliptical drops/ 

But both AP versions are almost worthless in random battles where you need to be able to address all sorts of targets, dds and cruisers included. As long as we cannot switch between AP/HE in game, HE will remain the default for the majority of players, and quite capable of reaching similar avg dmg numbers to AP, with less effort,and less reliance on luck. Even then, AP will ramain in the ammo storage bunkers until the end game./

GZ1 is especially painful, GZ2 at least offers a more reliable and fairer hit chance against awake and active targets, including some cruisers, but frankly neither are worth the energy in random pvp where HE is a better tactical choice, capable of dealing with whatever MM throws at you.

As for ranked battles, would you take an AP loadout that is useful only against BBs?

10 hours ago, OppressorUnion said:

Over 10 games I' am averaging 77,000 damage now that might sound a lot  but on the stat boards I rank  as Great as a CV captain and a equivalent Enterprise captain closes stats wise is  banking in the 94,000 range  that is a 16,000 on average damage difference per battle, between  the only 2 premium 8 CVs that's  almost a 20% difference in damage and remember one can shut down the other. ( if you haven't picked it up yet the Enterprise shuts down the Graf in Air Control)

Enterprise is OP, undeniably a disservice to the game, which causes inflationary demands on the other CVs, to both the only other premium (GZ) and the tech tree Lexington and Shokaku. The Lex is obviously the biggest loser in all this. Enterpiss shuts everyone down, not just Graf Zeppelin.

But a HE GZ is still doing less average damage than all three of its rivals, which is in't good. How does the GZ TEST 1 AP compare to your averages in Lexington and Shokaku? I cannot find your stats for those.

 

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Was on the wrong side of the GZ1 last night.  I was running a t9 BB that turns like a glacier when it happened.  I saw them coming and knew I was in trouble...alt-AA and launched catapult fighter...they came in like a triangle so they went in front on & to left and right of me so my turn basically allowed hits from 2 groups...Boom!  :etc_swear:

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Ive watched GZ's drop on Tirp's and Bizzy's going flat out and simply wreck them, Ive had a GZ drop on my tirp (full AA setup) going flat out and in a turn and wreck me for 50k.

 

For me, this seems like WG has a hate on for German BB's, since AP bombs are highly effective on their armour layout and not overly so vs others.....although the Yamato success indicates IJN BB's might also suffer. Its a shame that WG appears to be punishing the nations (IJN other than Yam and the awful Izumo) that benefit the most from pushing or being mobile.

 

Im not a fan of my Kaga simply because of the Saipan which, unless I sink it, will usually make my game 100% unenjoyable. It would be unfortunate if they create GZ in the same format, where one ship can totally ruin your game....unless you kill it first.

 

The current idea of releasing 'one trick pony' premium CV's is a bad idea.  Unfortunately I have ZERO belief that WG can fix CV's without ruining something else. They will forever be creating one monster to counter their previously created monster.

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5 minutes ago, hipcanuck said:

Ive watched GZ's drop on Tirp's and Bizzy's going flat out and simply wreck them, Ive had a GZ drop on my tirp (full AA setup) going flat out and in a turn and wreck me for 50k.

 

For me, this seems like WG has a hate on for German BB's, since AP bombs are highly effective on their armour layout and not overly so vs others.....although the Yamato success indicates IJN BB's might also suffer. Its a shame that WG appears to be punishing the nations (IJN other than Yam and the awful Izumo) that benefit the most from pushing or being mobile.

 

Im not a fan of my Kaga simply because of the Saipan which, unless I sink it, will usually make my game 100% unenjoyable. It would be unfortunate if they create GZ in the same format, where one ship can totally ruin your game....unless you kill it first.

 

The current idea of releasing 'one trick pony' premium CV's is a bad idea.  Unfortunately I have ZERO belief that WG can fix CV's without ruining something else. They will forever be creating one monster to counter their previously created monster.

German and IJN bbs suffer because they have poor AA defense, it makes it easier to get more dive bombers through your AA bubble, and so increases the chances of being hit multiple times. TBH I will target a lone Yamato or GK, mercilessly, if there are no tierX cruisers within 8km of them.

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2 hours ago, nuttybiscuit said:

And there is the rub, only effective against BB afkers or BB reverse bow tankers, anyone actually playing the game is immune to our GZ1 elliptical drops/ 

But both AP versions are almost worthless in random battles where you need to be able to address all sorts of targets, dds and cruisers included. As long as we cannot switch between AP/HE in game, HE will remain the default for the majority of players, and quite capable of reaching similar avg dmg numbers to AP, with less effort,and less reliance on luck. Even then, AP will ramain in the ammo storage bunkers until the end game./

GZ1 is especially painful, GZ2 at least offers a more reliable and fairer hit chance against awake and active targets, including some cruisers, but frankly neither are worth the energy in random pvp where HE is a better tactical choice, capable of dealing with whatever MM throws at you.

 

GZ1s AP drop pattern is super useful against just about everything. It took me a game to get sighted in on the drop delay before I started hitting cruisers. Battleships that evade take about 40-60% of my bombs which on average do 30k-50k damage. Similar to a torpedo strike, so I don't see that there's anything wrong there. As for GZ2, to say that it's drop is anything other than bad I find horribly optimistic. AP bombs require hitting important parts of the ship to deal damage, exactly the same as AP shells. Thus with the GZ test 2 you run into the problem of not being able to hit the important parts consistently. Sure you can hit the ship more often than not but not hitting the citadel will cut your damage by a lot. Thus you are better of with HE than in GZ2 as you can deal damage to the small boats due to HE contact fuses and HE not caring as much about where it hits a ship. However to say that GZ1 isn't worth using I find rather perplexing as cruisers are difficult to hit which I see as fair due to the majority of cruisers getting deleted by a GZ APstrike if it hit in the right places (aim for the turrets, as you'll over pen everywhere else). And you can delete just about any battleship in the game if your bombers get though. Even against evading targets you can still land some bombs which will do a majority of their hit points in my experience. For example North Carolina can be deleted with 8 bombs, and Monarch with 10. This is assuming you land mid ships with the bombs, which you can't even attempt to do with GZ test due to the left right dispersion. 

2 hours ago, nuttybiscuit said:

Enterprise is OP, undeniably a disservice to the game, which causes inflationary demands on the other CVs, to both the only other premium (GZ) and the tech tree Lexington and Shokaku. The Lex is obviously the biggest loser in all this. Enterprise shuts everyone down, not just Graf Zeppelin.

Enterprise isn't OP, due to the lack of reserve strike aircraft. Couple that with the less than ideal torpedo drop and either no fire AP bombs or less than stellar HE bombs and you give a lower damage out put. Further more none of Enterprise's aircraft can escape a hostile fighter squad. GZ fighters are the best example of this fact. Which means that a good player will understand the limitations of the Enterprise strike group and reserve bombers and use that to his advantage against the Big E. If the average carrier captain is too stupid to understand how to defeat any other carrier with their chosen air group then I think  they should drop to tier 6 until they learn how to do that. Likewise I've destroyed Enterprises with Shokaku, and GZ Test 1 due to knowing the weaknesses of the Enterprise's air group and exploiting it. 

Also why does everyone bash on Lexi, I feel bad for her honestly. As on average I do better with Lexington than I do Shokaku, and while I don't have the damage or win rate of my Enterprise I think that comes down to using the AS Lexington incorrectly and being a much better player when Enterprise came out so there are less 'bad cause learning carriers' games with Enterprise. However Lexi is my preferred carrier at tier 8, as I feel her Strike load-out is as flexible if not more flexible than another ship with another load out. Just remember that torpedo bombers make great fighter bait, and that catapult fighters do count for fighter lock and you shouldn't have too many problems against 90% of players out there. 

 

15 minutes ago, hipcanuck said:

Im not a fan of my Kaga simply because of the Saipan which, unless I sink it, will usually make my game 100% unenjoyable. It would be unfortunate if they create GZ in the same format, where one ship can totally ruin your game....unless you kill it first.

If it's not a 3/0/1 Saipan you can do good work by baiting the fighters over friendly AA. Alternatively if they don't have AS and are running 2/2/0 you can hold your own long enough to get your bombers by. I will admit it's really hard to do well against Saipan but I've got replays that show it's possible. 

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52 minutes ago, Grathew said:

 

 

Enterprise isn't OP, due to the lack of reserve strike aircraft. Couple that with the less than ideal torpedo drop and either no fire AP bombs or less than stellar HE bombs and you give a lower damage out put. Further more none of Enterprise's aircraft can escape a hostile fighter squad. GZ fighters are the best example of this fact. Which means that a good player will understand the limitations of the Enterprise strike group and reserve bombers and use that to his advantage against the Big E. If the average carrier captain is too stupid to understand how to defeat any other carrier with their chosen air group then I think  they should drop to tier 6 until they learn how to do that. Likewise I've destroyed Enterprises with Shokaku, and GZ Test 1 due to knowing the weaknesses of the Enterprise's air group and exploiting it. 

 

Enterpiss isn't OP in theory, but in practice she is OverPowered in the random battle meta, which is why she is leagues ahead in establishing a WinRate other carriers can only dream about. Now I say this, as player who has had plenty of victories against Enterprises while playing my HE Graf, I can deal with an average Ent player (not a good one). In fact this last week, I have been enjoying a non stop run of victories in the GZ, against everything. (Weird) But that is just me, metrics tell a different story.

 

52 minutes ago, Grathew said:

Also why does everyone bash on Lexi, I feel bad for her honestly. As on average I do better with Lexington than I do Shokaku, and while I don't have the damage or win rate of my Enterprise I think that comes down to using the AS Lexington incorrectly and being a much better player when Enterprise came out so there are less 'bad cause learning carriers' games with Enterprise. However Lexi is my preferred carrier at tier 8, as I feel her Strike load-out is as flexible if not more flexible than another ship with another load out. Just remember that torpedo bombers make great fighter bait, and that catapult fighters do count for fighter lock and you shouldn't have too many problems against 90% of players out there. 

I don't mean to bash Lexington, I just have a hard time doing well, (although having under 40 matches is hardly proof of what I can or cannot achieve with her). But it is undeniable that Lexington is doing very badly compared to all three other tier 8 carriers (including the Graf!), on average. That isn't to say an especially good CV player can not get excellent results with Lex. But most players are not especially good players, we are average potatoes, and Lex lacks a potato player easy mode.

I will try out your suggestion on the Strike loadout (had been going AS recently), and using the torpedo bombers as fighter bait ;)

52 minutes ago, Grathew said:

GZ1s AP drop pattern is super useful against just about everything. It took me a game to get sighted in on the drop delay before I started hitting cruisers. Battleships that evade take about 40-60% of my bombs which on average do 30k-50k damage.

Just about everything except, destroyers (t6-t10), and t9+ cruisers. Fine, but what do you do in a TierX match? At least with HE you can harrass destroyers, with AP and anyone awake.

 

52 minutes ago, Grathew said:

For example North Carolina can be deleted with 8 bombs, and Monarch with 10. This is assuming you land mid ships with the bombs, which you can't even attempt to do with GZ test due to the left right dispersion. 

Tier 8, assuming you have established AS and have time to align DBs for their respective bombing runs without their being harrassed, but what do you do in the other 50% of your random battles with tier9s and 10s? (another subject entirely : Why force the mechanics of torpedo bombers on dive bombers?)

Sorry, I am being too negative. I will give GZ1 a few more tries before testing closes down. Doubtless I have been spoilt by two weeks of happy results in the basic release GZ. (Weird..)

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3 hours ago, nuttybiscuit said:

I will try out your suggestion on the Strike loadout (had been going AS recently), and using the torpedo bombers as fighter bait ;)

Strike is hard mode, but it will make you a better player once you get to grips with it. 

 

3 hours ago, nuttybiscuit said:

Just about everything except, destroyers (t6-t10), and t9+ cruisers. Fine, but what do you do in a TierX match? At least with HE you can harrass destroyers, with AP and anyone awake.

I do exactly the same as I do in any other tier 8 carrier, I look for openings and I exploit them. The only difference is that with GZT1 I can exploit smaller holes against larger targets for better results than any other ship in the game. Cause let us face it, torpedo bombers need a large hole in anti air or fighters to get lined up to drop where as bombers only need a small hole. Further more with the 5s take off time you can get the first strike off and cripple a top tier BB early which usually helps the team in a long run, rather than going looking to stop a destroyer in a cap which may or may not pan out. Either way I play it like I play strike Lexington, look for big targets limiting their options to evade and punish them with relative impunity. 

4 hours ago, nuttybiscuit said:

Tier 8, assuming you have established AS and have time to align DBs for their respective bombing runs without their being harrassed, but what do you do in the other 50% of your random battles with tier9s and 10s? (another subject entirely : Why force the mechanics of torpedo bombers on dive bombers?)

Sorry, I am being too negative. I will give GZ1 a few more tries before testing closes down. Doubtless I have been spoilt by two weeks of happy results in the basic release GZ. (Weird..)

Both of those ships can be found in tier 10 games as well. Secondly if you are spending the same amount of time with a dive strike as a torpedo strike you aren't using the dive bombers correctly. Third I see most tier 9 and 10 battleships and half of the cruisers as free damage. Assuming no defensive fire you can just about delete any cruiser with two squads (one will likely die but the other one will make it though). So what do I do with tier 10s? The exact same stuff as I do at tier 8 or any tier in my carrier, look for holes in AA coverage and hit targets. I don't see a difference between a tier 10 and a tier 8 game, other than I can do more damage in the former.

(As for your comment about torpedo bomber mechanics onto dive bombers I posted about WG wanting to replace torpedo bombers with AP bombers. Which I know you read cause you were the first response.)

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7 minutes ago, Grathew said:

Strike is hard mode, but it will make you a better player once you get to grips with it. 

Yes master Grathew.

Do I still have to balance a stone on my forehead while sweeping the courtyard?

Ok ok, I'll get back to work and try and apply myself some more..

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19 hours ago, nuttybiscuit said:

Yes master Grathew.

Do I still have to balance a stone on my forehead while sweeping the courtyard?

Ok ok, I'll get back to work and try and apply myself some more..

I don't think the courtyard needs sweeping, nor do I have a good stone for head balancing but if you feel it's necessary.... 

 

Snark aside, knowing how to play carrier's with out fighters often gives me a bit of an advantage. As I can effectively throw away fighters to kill off a strike package or stall a fighter in order to get through to the target. So now I don't necessary worry about air-supremacy to deal damage. I find it nice when I can get it but I don't find it as crippling as I did before I played a ton of strike Lexington. I know a lot of people worry about getting aircraft shot down but I see a good number of people worrying about loosing any aircraft and thus playing timidly. To be a bit blunt I find it overly depressing, carriers can take a ton of risk early on to set the tone of the game. I often see that a timid carrier will lead to a timid team which will lead to a loss. So play strike Lexington, learn to evade and work past hostile fighters, and never worry about air supremacy again. 

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Just now, Grathew said:

I don't think the courtyard needs sweeping, nor do I have a good stone for head balancing but if you feel it's necessary.... 

 

Snark aside, knowing how to play carrier's with out fighters often gives me a bit of an advantage. As I can effectively throw away fighters to kill off a strike package or stall a fighter in order to get through to the target. So now I don't necessary worry about air-supremacy to deal damage. I find it nice when I can get it but I don't find it as crippling as I did before I played a ton of strike Lexington. I know a lot of people worry about getting aircraft shot down but I see a good number of people worrying about loosing any aircraft and thus playing timidly. To be a bit blunt I find it overly depressing, carriers can take a ton of risk early on to set the tone of the game. I often see that a timid carrier will lead to a timid team which will lead to a loss. So play strike Lexington, learn to evade and work past hostile fighters, and never worry about air supremacy again. 

Truth be told, the first match I went into after your comment, in my Lexington, with a strike loadout, I won. Maybe it was the :etc_swear: it :etc_red_button:! that made something click;)

I also finished my GZ1 mission today, amazingly winning most of the matches with lots of t10 MM battles. Overall AP dmg was comparable to a HE loadout, but I felt I had poorer control of the battlespace, not being able to seriously hunt dds. The insta delete effect of a successful run on battleships was satisfying, it has to be admitted. As you recommended, I played aggressively from the start with GZ1 too, and as you say, "Setting the tone." So +1 for good advice :Smile_honoring:

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3 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

Truth be told, the first match I went into after your comment, in my Lexington, with a strike loadout, I won. Maybe it was the :etc_swear: it :etc_red_button:! that made something click;)

I also finished my GZ1 mission today, amazingly winning most of the matches with lots of t10 MM battles. Overall AP dmg was comparable to a HE loadout, but I felt I had poorer control of the battlespace, not being able to seriously hunt dds. The insta delete effect of a successful run on battleships was satisfying, it has to be admitted. As you recommended, I played aggressively from the start with GZ1 too, and as you say, "Setting the tone." So +1 for good advice :Smile_honoring:

If you plan on keeping your Lexington strike for a while I'd say swap out to the faster servicing time upgrade instead of the fighter buff as it won't do you any good, plus the faster rearm is useful for raking in the damage. Also watch out for over extending singular squads as then you'll loose due to attrition, but clumping up to tightly can lead to devastating strafes. It's not really something one can explain in text as it's mostly wizardry but think about it. Lastly attacking in two waves (usually the first with the TB and 1 DB to force DC usage then the other two DB come in to burn them to the ground after the DC finishes) nets one metric ton of damage. 

 

On to GZ1 is a high skill floor ship, and I kinda like that more than a low skill floor ship. However you have to be comfortable with little to no fighter coverage or control over the airspace, the only two ships that I feel can teach that are Lexington and Ranger when they run strike. As for GZ2 I still have yet to take it into a real battle, but a training room test or two lead me to just look at it and get a meh feeling about it. AP bombs and AP shells work best when aimed precisely and fall where aimed. with the circle you don't have the control so I don't think it will be as effective. Not to mention the 5s take off time which would be a massive buff to any carrier as it lets you be way more aggressive as you don't have to wait to clump up your bombers. So then a massed strike is way simpler and deleting battleships and cruisers. Which should make putting your team at an early advantage rather easy, and putting your team a head early is never a bad thing as the worst they can do is throw it away, which is better than them putting you at an early disadvantage. 

 

Which leads me to think that a 2/0/1/2 load out for GZ would be nice, with 2 fighters, 1 AP bomber and 2 HE bombers or the choice to flip it for 2AP and 1 HE. Let the AP bombs take up the role of high alpha that is usually fulfilled by torpedoes. 

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12 hours ago, Grathew said:

.

Which leads me to think that a 2/0/1/2 load out for GZ would be nice, with 2 fighters, 1 AP bomber and 2 HE bombers or the choice to flip it for 2AP and 1 HE. Let the AP bombs take up the role of high alpha that is usually fulfilled by torpedoes. 

Why not 2/0/2/2 as I see it now even with 2 AP and 2 HE we will still do less damage than a Enterprise if they buff the fighters I say that would be a very balance ship. Right now I feel were going to get the shaft if released this way. The AP is great on test 1 but the one hits are making people cry and to be honest those huge hits don't happen as often as people think and only work against slow non dodging targets but as soon as someone is one shott'd they scream. Mad player base / Battleship captains even if not warranted is still bad for the game. We might end up getting a Graff that is a one trick pony which is no fun in the long run.

Whatever the case is we only need 2 AP squads, that way people don't cry about one shots and get another damage source HE or Torps to do the rest.

Second I Just fought a whole night of AS Shok with 3 fighter squads in my TEST 1. I hated it nothing you can do. we need a Air spec option with 3 fighter squads no other ship besides the Shok has it at T8 the Graf should have a 3 fighter layout as well as a second choice. Maybe 3/0/0/3 IDK but something anything. What if the 3 fighter squads were still T7 or what if they had 3 planes of T9 like Saipan.

 

Edited by OppressorUnion

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I don't think Graf Needs an extra fighter squad, but yah the 2/0/2/2 would be my perfect load out. Not sure if we will get it though. 

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