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TwizzstedLlama

What is the point of secondaries?

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I keep hearing from people, whenever I ask how to effeticly utilize secondary guns on any ship, that secondaries only become useful in tiers 8 and above. So on ships that aren't tier 8 and above, what is the point of secondary guns?

Thier range is piss poor, meaning that the only time they ever fire is if someone is ramming you, or if a DD/CL has already been given the chance to nuke you with a Torp salvo, so in any instance they are going to fire, you're alreday screwed.

And even when they do start firing, their accuracy is such that you'll be lucky to hit anything before that inevidible Torpedo nuke.

 

Please let me know what the point of having secondaries exist on low tier ships is. I'm legit curious.

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There to set fires and good secondaries begin at Tier 7, there are a few outliers that have good secondaries at Tier 6 (Warspite) and Tier 3 (Konig Albert).

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To ward off nearly dead ships through at that point they would go in for the ram or have metal fishes loaded to take you down with them. I had a DD fail their full load of toros on my Dunkerque so they went in for the ram only to get pulverized by my secondaries since I cut their health short with my main guns in the initial stages.

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Depends, if you do nothing to the ship to up the rage, not much. But if you have AFT, the secondary moder. that ups range or both, they can become useful. Most BB's, the main secondary user, can have ranges extended out to 5.5-6 km, German BB's generally further. While IJN can still stealth torp, most other DD's have to enter secondary range and they can rip a DD apart. clicking on a ship will focus it and improve accuracy a little (a lot with manual secondary skill). That and some cruisers as well, that may or may not have torps, that can be eaten up by the firepower unleashed as well. BB's, mainly start some fires burning when you get close. Tier 8 is when Germany get insane secondaries (now tops out I think over 11 km), but theirs through even 5 and 6 can be the most useful, the other lines too can make use of them in those scenario's, not so much built around it the way the German BB's were in game.

 

That, and especially at lower tiers, many tip their hand they are about to launch torps so time it right you can dodge and now they are eating extra rounds that can take out their engine. Plus it used to be way more close range battles at the tiers below 8, especially 4 and 5 where everyone had secondary guns going off but haven't played much that low in a while, may have shifted to the top tier camp fest that is driving me insane.

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Secondaries are there to help you finish lightly armored targets. The HE will generally pen so you don't have to worry aboit switching ammo types. e.g. Bayern secondaries against a Cleveland, the main guns will probably over penetrate, but the secondaries can really do some work.

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As mentioned above, secondaries can be a good deterrent. in late game you may find yourself being ambushed/attacked by 2 ships where they'll often get their big boy pants on and close distance. In that scenario I'll usually set my secondaries on the lesser threat (left mouse button for me ... you'll see the "A" above that ship) and keep my main guns pointed at the main threat.

 

The manual selection, even with out manual secondaries Captain skill will increase accuracy a bit and it's then possible to bag 2 kills instead of just the 1.

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If for instance you are focused with your main guns on a target to port and your secondaries start shooting at a ship that just popped out around an island to your starboard side then they've acted as an early warning system. I can't count how many times I've been alerted to a new threat by the secondaries going off.

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And even when i specify that i'd like to know about early tier ships, i still have people answering me about late tier ships. Or people give me the obvious answer of "secondaries are used at close range" like they didn't read the OP at all.

Literally the only targets i find that ever come into secondary range are ships that want to dump torpedos (and because i'm in a BB, it's trivially easy at that range to land a good hit) or make a last-ditch effort to ram. Every other ship is going to hang way the hell back for that exact reason. And again, once my secondaries do manage to open up, it's already too late; i've eaten a full slavo of torps. If i had manuvered to avoid the torps confrontation to begin with, the enemy would no longer be in secondary range.

 

So i ask again, what is the actual practical purpose of low-tier sceondaries. I'm really suprised this is a difficult question to get an good answer to.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Rolkatsuki said:

To ward off nearly dead ships through at that point they would go in for the ram or have metal fishes loaded to take you down with them. I had a DD fail their full load of toros on my Dunkerque so they went in for the ram only to get pulverized by my secondaries since I cut their health short with my main guns in the initial stages.

 

Ships that are in a position to Ram or dump "metal fishies" can do so well before the shotgun range of some secondaries can even fire off thier first salvo. Lucky you to find a DD that mis-aimed thier torps, but to the many other DDs out there can can manage to hit as easy a target as a BB in close range, secondaries are not going to help you.

 

7 hours ago, TornadoADV said:

There to set fires and good secondaries begin at Tier 7, there are a few outliers that have good secondaries at Tier 6 (Warspite) and Tier 3 (Konig Albert).

 

So now we set the bar of "useful secondaries" to 7? That still leaves out 6 whole tiers of ships. What is the point of secondaries on those tiers then?

Make a case for St. Louis, Wyoming, or Kawachi, for example, that doesn't rely on Luck or Bot-level stupidity on the enemy's part.

And even for Albert and Nassau, at 4km range (extended to 5 with Captain and flags), you're still well inside of enemy torp range, and your guns are still as innacurate as muskets in bad

 weather, so the only enemies you're going to have sucess damaging with your secondaries without getting killed yourself are enemies that are unaware of your existance.

 

 

2 hours ago, CrazyHorse_Denver said:

If for instance you are focused with your main guns on a target to port and your secondaries start shooting at a ship that just popped out around an island to your starboard side then they've acted as an early warning system. I can't count how many times I've been alerted to a new threat by the secondaries going off.

 

If i'm tunnelvisioning an enemy across the map, and i notice my Shotgun range secondaries going off, in all likelyhood it's a DD that has prepared a torp salvo that is too close in proximity for me to have a change of avoiding it. Where is this BB you have acess to that has the manuverability to avoid a "new threat" your shotgun-secondaries have found?

 

 

3 hours ago, nothere01 said:

historical accuracy

 

This is such a non-answer i don't understand why people keep saying it. You can claim historical innacuracy over the fact they have such pitiful ranges (Nassau's secondaries, for example have ranges well within 9-15 km). You can claim Historical Innacuracy over the fact that DDs and Trop CLs can simply drift into torp range and dump, and proptly bail before secondaries even attampt to fire, but you don't. This isn't a historical thing, its a functional or balance-based thing. Please stop bringing it up if it means nothing.

Edited by TwizzstedLlama

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German battleships beg to differ secondaries aren't good below tier 8. Love their secondaries.

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If i'm tunnelvisioning an enemy across the map, and i notice my Shotgun range secondaries going off, in all likelyhood it's a DD that has prepared a torp salvo that is too close in proximity for me to have a change of avoiding it. Where is this BB you have acess to that has the manuverability to avoid a "new threat" your shotgun-secondaries have found?

What if it's not a DD. What if it's a non torp CA that will start off by setting you on fire before pumping AP into you at point blank range while you spend more than a minute to either turn your guns or your ship. But then your position is that if you can't immediately answer a new threat you don't want to know about it.

How you play is up to you but as for myself I'll use EVERY tool at my disposal.

You do know that you have the option of turning off your secondaries if you're convinced they are so useless.

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18 minutes ago, CrazyHorse_Denver said:

What if it's not a DD. What if it's a non torp CA that will start off by setting you on fire before pumping AP into you at point blank range while you spend more than a minute to either turn your guns or your ship. But then your position is that if you can't immediately answer a new threat you don't want to know about it.

 

Coming into CQ with anything that isn't a Torp Boat has always been such an utra-rare occurance for me I generally no longer consider it when thinking about secondaries. It seems no gun boat is going to close in if the mere prospect of a Trop boat existing is present. The few instances where I do come across a non-torp boat, it seems secndaries would have a bit of a use, but like i said, the occurnace rates of that happening are so low as to warrant ignroing it.

And I absolutely would like to know about new threats, i'm just not convinced that Low-range Secondaries are going to give you much room to work with. What can you do if you notice a DD popping from behind an island at 2km and dumps torps immedietly? You sure as hell can't turn fast enough to do anything about it.

 

Quote

How you play is up to you but as for myself I'll use EVERY tool at my disposal.

You do know that you have the option of turning off your secondaries if you're convinced they are so useless.

 

What makes you think i don't try and use the tools laid out before me? What makes you think that i want secondaries to be useless? Why am i asking about thier effective purpose if i don't care about them?

Edited by TwizzstedLlama

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28 minutes ago, TwizzstedLlama said:

 

Coming into CQ with anything that isn't a Torp Boat has always been such an utra-rare occurance for me I generally no longer consider it. It seems no gun boat is going to close in if the mere prospect of a Trop boat existing is present. The few instances where I do come across a non-torp boat, it seems secndaries would have a bit of a use, but like i said, the occurnace rates of that happening are so low as to warrant ignroing it.

And I abolutely would like to know about new threats, i'm just not convinced that Low-range Secondaries are going to give you much room to work with. What can you do if a DD pops form behind an island at 2km and dumps torps immedietly? You sure as hell can't turn fast enough.

 

 

What makes yout think i don't try and use the tools laid out before me? What makes you think that i want secondaries to be useless? Why am i asking about thier effective purpose if i don't care about them?

What makes me think so...

Well people keep giving you reasons for why we think secondaries are useful and you keep dismissing them. Your scenario for dismissing them depends on a DD popping up out of nowhere at 2km and has all his torp tubes loaded and ready to go.

1. It's not always going to be a DD or other torp carrying ship that surprises you.

2. Popping up that close isn't always going to happen either. At 9.5km my Bismarck has plenty of time to out turn torps if my secondaries give me the warning. With the low tier Russian torps range being 4km a Russian ship would have to be(in a lot of cases) under secondary fire for 1km and often for much longer before launching an attack.

3. DDs like all the other ships have weapon reload times. In your scenario to dismiss secondaries you assume that a DD is always loaded and ready to go thus giving you no time to react.

Edited by CrazyHorse_Denver

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26 minutes ago, CrazyHorse_Denver said:

Well people keep giving you reasons for why we think secondaries are useful and you keep dismissing them. Your scenario for dismissing them depends on a DD popping up out of nowhere at 2km and has all his torp tubes loaded and ready to go.

 

Because that's the only scanario i consistantly ecnouter ships at close range. Gunboats and other BBs stay away from close range because torpedos. Torpboats come close because torpedos. So mysteirously, the only targets i find are torpboats. And they're all mysteirously pre-loaded and ready-to-fire, because why would a Torpboat put himself out of position if he doesn't have any advanatge to play on? A torpboat that is in at close range with no torps has done something wrong.

 

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1. It's not always going to be a DD or other torp carrying ship that surprises you.

Correct, but as i have said previously, I rarely encounter non-trop boats at close range.

 

Quote

2. Popping up that close isn't always going to happen either. At 9.5km my Bismarck has plenty of time to out turn torps if my secondaries give me the warning.

 

Notice that the Bismarck is a tier 8 ship, when i specifically asked where TIERS LOWER THAN 8 have a position to use their secondaries.

For someone who's being so agressive to shut me down, you could do well to read the things I actually post.

Give me a tutorial on how to use the Wyoming's 3.5 km secondaries as a useful warning of anything.

 

Quote

3. DDs like all the other ships have weapon reload times. In your scenario to dismiss secondaries you assume that a DD is always loaded and ready to go thus giving you no time to react.

Because why would a DD stick around near a BB if they don't have torps to throw at them? It's trivially easy to escape the range and grabage firepower of low-tier sceondaries provided they don't have torps loaded for whatever reason. 

Unlike you apperantly, i don't have the ability to teleport next to DDs if thier torps are reloading, and few DDs i come across are dumb enough to close in a BB without having something to hit them with.

Edited by TwizzstedLlama

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2 minutes ago, TwizzstedLlama said:

 

 

Because that's the only scanario i consistantly ecnouter ships at close range. Gunboats and other BBs stay away because torpedos. Torpboats come close because torpedos. So mysteirously, the only targets i find are torpboats. And they're all mysteirously pre-loaded and ready-to-fire, because why would a Torpboat put himself out of position if he doesn't have any advanatge to play on? A torpboat that is in at close range with no torps has done something wrong.

 

Correct, but as i have said previously, I rarely encounter non-trop boats at close range.

 

 

Notice that the Bismarck is a tier 8 ship, when i specifically asked where TIERS LOWER THAN 8 have a position to use their secondaries.

For someone who's being so agressive to shut me down, you could do well to read the things I actually post.

Give me a tutorial on how to use the Wyoming's 3.5 km secondaries as a useful warning of anything.

 

Because why would a DD stick around near a BB if they don't have torps to throw at them? It's trivially easy to escape the range and grabage firepower of low-tier sceondaries provided they don't have torps loaded for whatever reason. 

Unlike you apperantly, i don't have the ability to teleport next to DDs if thier torps are reloading,a nd few DDs i come across are dumb enough to close in a BB without having something to hit them with.

For someone who's being so aggressive to deny any use at all for secondaries, you could do well to read the things I actually post.

Yes you are right there are times that your secondaries are not going to be of much help. That doesn't mean they are useless all or even most of the time. So as I said before, play however you like but don't go trying to convince us that something in the game is useless simply because you create a scenario that specifically makes that system useless because the scenario you've created is not the only one we'll encounter in the game.

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17 minutes ago, CrazyHorse_Denver said:

For someone who's being so aggressive to deny any use at all for secondaries, you could do well to read the things I actually post.

Let me know where i'm misreading you and i'll be sure to correct myself. And i'm not denying use of secondaries, i'm asking where they're useful. The "answers" that have been presented to me don't actually properlly answer my question, so of course i dismiss them., i'm not just denying everything.

 

Stop strawmanning me.

Quote

Yes you are right there are times that your secondaries are not going to be of much help. That doesn't mean they are useless all or even most of the time. So as I said before, play however you like but don't go trying to convince us that something in the game is useless simply because you create a scenario that specifically makes that system useless because the scenario you've created is not the only one we'll encounter in the game.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, i'm literally just trying to figure out where and when Low tier sceondaries are useful. I'm not "creating a scnenario", these are the scenarios i come across in virtually every match that i try to play BB. I don't come acorss close range gunboats, but i do come across several torpboats that delete me with torps before my secondaries do anything.

 

Again, for example i ask, Where and when can i expect to use Wyoming's secondaries on an enemy without getting killed? Don't cite tier 8 ships, because it's not relavant to my question.

How am i playing wrong if Wyoming-tier secondaries are apperantly godlike?

 

This is the game guides section, right? Where is the guidance?

Edited by TwizzstedLlama

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1 minute ago, TwizzstedLlama said:

Let me know where i'm misreading you and i'll be sure to correct myself. And i'm not denying use of secondaries, i'm asking where they're useful. The "answers" that have been presented to be don't actually properlly answer my question, so of course i dismiss them., i'm not some denialist.

 

Stop strawmanning me.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, i'm literally just trying to figure out where and when Low tier sceondaries are useful. I'm not "creating a scnenario", these are the scenarios i come across in virtually every match that i try to play BB. I don't come acorss close range gunboats, but i do come across several torpboats that delete me with torps before my secondaries do anything.

 

Again, for example i ask, Where and when can i expect to use Wyoming's secondaries on an enemy without getting killed? Don't cite tier 8 ships, because it's not relavant to my question.

How am i playing wrong if Wyoming-tier secondaries are apperantly secretly godlike?

With 385 battles I can't understand why you're having trouble listening to people with much more experience.

Yes...the Wyoming's secondaries are crap. That's not true of all ship secondaries even at that tier. When I'm driving my Isokaze I look at Wyomings as an easy kill; not so much the German BBs.

Yes...in the scenario that you've created they are useless. That's not the only game scenario you're going to run across; you'll learn that as you get more games under your belt to show you how they can be useful. That's what I've been trying to tell you...they are and will be useful once you get past the Wyoming.

So let's suppose that your thesis is correct and that all low tier secondaries are useless. What would you have us do...get rid of them.

You keep saying teach me...teach me...but you don't seem to want to listen to anyone so I'm done here. You can have the last word to insult someone that was only trying to pass on info acquired after thousands of battles at all tiers.

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I take my Kongo's into point blank range engagements frequently. The secondaries have finished several ships, saving me from putting another salvo into a near dead ship.

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53 minutes ago, CrazyHorse_Denver said:

With 385 battles I can't understand why you're having trouble listening to people with much more experience.

I mean you haven't pointed to anything that i haven't adressed is some way. Let me know what i haven't heard. My ears are open.

Not to sound cocky, but you being more experienced does not automatically make what you're saying meaningful. I'd love to hear some pointers on how to play Low tiers with secondaries in mind if you disagree that they are useless.

 

Quote

Yes...the Wyoming's secondaries are crap. That's not true of all ship secondaries even at that tier. When I'm driving my Isokaze I look at Wyomings as an easy kill; not so much the German BBs.

In this you're just feeding the source of my question. Are German BBs the only ships with viable sceondaries at the low tier? There has to be a functional reason the devs included secondaries at all on the Wyoming, right?

Is the Kawachi also inately useless? the St. Louis? New York? Bellerophon? South Carolina? Is it just Nassau and Kaiser that I can expect functional secondaries? Why are they so low-powered? There has to be a reason, and that's why i'm asking.

 

Quote

Yes...in the scenario that you've created they are useless. That's not the only game scenario you're going to run across; you'll learn that as you get more games under your belt to show you how they can be useful. That's what I've been trying to tell you...they are and will be useful once you get past the Wyoming.

 

And i'm asking for explanations of those situations. I'm aksing how to make those situations a reality, how to imporve my BB game. Me asking "what is the point of this mechanic" and recieving "dont try to convince me of things" is operating in two completely different spheres and doesnt help.

 

Yes, i get it, its not the only scanario that exists, but it's the only one i seem to encounter. I am not choosing to only encounter Toropboats at close range. I would love to have a close-range battle with no fear of torpedos. Tell me how i should play to avoid those situations, and start playing situations where secondaries are more useful.

 

Quote

So let's suppose that your thesis is correct and that all low tier secondaries are useless. What would you have us do...get rid of them.

You keep saying teach me...teach me...but you don't seem to want to listen to anyone so I'm done here. You can have the last word to insult someone that was only trying to pass on info acquired after thousands of battles at all tiers.

 

"supposing" that my "thesis" is correct would imply that it isn't, despite me not hearing a good argument for that. You literally just said that ships like the Wyoming have crap secondaries. In cases like Wyoming, what is the purpose of the secondaries then? People are saying that i'm wrong about useless lowtier sceondaries but then don't offer a valid or relavant reason why.

And i have been listening.

It has been said that Secondaries are useful at high tiers, which i aknowlege, but it doesn't fall into the scope of my question.

It has been said that German BBs are above average in secondary power at low tier, which i accept (and adore), but it doesn't explain all the other ships' cases.

It has been said that sceondaries can be useful against non-torpedo ships at close range, but i explain that this is not a common occurance for me, and so isn't relavant to bring up unless you explain how i can set battles up to play like that.

It has been said that Secnondaries are, in part, inlcuded for historical accuracy, which i aknowlege, but don't find relavant to answering my question, due to it's inconsistant application in the game.

It has been said that i lack the experience to know how exactly where and when to use them viably, and ignoring the fact that "git good" is not a valid argument, no one ever seems to supply pointers to chnage my game so that i might gian more experience. What should i be doing that i'm not?

 

Let me know what i'm not hearing. SImply telling me that "i'm not listening" without saying what i'm not hearing isnt helpful.

 

Edited by TwizzstedLlama

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I'll tackle a couple of these since I have spare time on my hands.

1.  Why are the secondaries so inconsistent between the nations.

A.  There are a few reasons; historical accuracy, Wargaming's national flavor, history of the game.

Historical accuracy is a real thing in this game when it comes to the look of a ship, the design of its armor model, and the placement of primary, secondary, and AA guns.  Look at the T3 German BB Nassau in game and compare it to the real life version.  Both have twelve 283mm main battery guns.  Both have twelve 150mm secondary guns.  Both have sixteen 88mm secondary guns.  As we can see the ship in game has the same number of guns as it did in real life.  WG didn't create some arbitrary number and stick them on there.  So that is one discrepancy that can be explained away.  I will add this one caveat, not all ships in this game are real and not all ships in this game are exact copies of their real counterparts.

Wargamming's national flavor and history of the game.  I will tackle these two in one paragraph.  When this game first came out there were only two nations, USA and Japan.  Japanese battleships were all about range and accuracy.  they featured long range guns and an "all around" armor scheme.  They also had decent secondaries to deal with those US destroyers that needed to get closer to them.  The USA battleships were mid ranged fighters and featured an "all or nothing" armor scheme.  Their secondaries were not as good but they had superior AA.  Well in comes the German battleships, but what role could they fill?  They ended up being mid to close range brawlers with an "all or nothing" armor scheme coupled with the turtleback citadel protection.  Since WG didn't want another mid ranged fighter, since that was the USN role, they decided to make the Germans get even closer to the enemy.  To do that they increased the range of their secondary guns.  We have lived with that decision for over a year now.

How you compare effective secondaries determines how good they are.  If you compare them to the american secondaries then everyone has good secondaries.  If you compare them to the German secondaries then everyone has crappy secondaries.

I feel that the IJN and RN battleships have good secondaries and if you felt like speccing into them they could be used effectively.  The Germans have excellent secondaries and you should definitely invest in them.  On most of the USN ships you can forget the secondaries exist.  They were acceptable for their time but not anymore.

 

2.  How do you effectively use those secondaries?

A.  You push forward and make the enemy get in range of them.

I am going to try and leave this as nation agnostic as possible.  These ideas should work for just about any tier and and nation.  There are two general ideas here; I just want my secondaries to shoot things close by, and I want my secondaries to melt faces.

If you just want your secondaries to be decent you don't really need to do a whole lot.  I would suggest BFT as it increases both secondary reload and AA power damage.  If you want to go a little farther you can get AFT which increases range on both secondaries and AA.  You can also invest in the Auxiliary Armaments modification so both your AA and secondaries last longer in battles.  With these few investments your secondary battery hits should equal in number to your main battery hits.  Remember in T3-5 your engagement range will be about 15km and lower for nearly all ships and your EFFECTIVE engagement range will be around 10km or less.  Low tier battleships are far to inaccurate to do a whole lot near their max range.  An effective engagement range of 10km and a secondary range of 4.4-5.6km means about 50% of your effective engagement range is also covered by your secondary range.

If you want face melting secondaries you are going to need to invest significant resources into them.  Some of those resources do not become available until T5 or higher.  Captain skills you need are AFT(Advanced Fire Training) and Manly Secondaries(Manual Secondaries).  BFT is also a very good option and I think Adrenaline Rush might be a decent option, but I would let the experts weigh in on that.  This is another part of the reason people say that secondaries are only good at high tiers.  It takes 10-14 captain points minimum and modifications you can only get at T5 and T9.  Most people running 14+ point captains at T4 are seal clubbers in premium ships.  The average player might have a 6 point captain at best.

So lets say you are a dedicated T4 player and want to experience what those awesome secondaries are all about.  How do you not get torped to death?  How do you not get gangbanged by a bunch of cruisers?  Know your enemy and play with your team.  Most DD at the start of the game head to one general spot and fire all their torps at the enemy DD.  You know what they won't expect?  A secondary spewing battleship driving like a drunk pirate, firing HE shells at their decks.  Why all those things?  A constantly moving target is harder to hit, even at 4km.  I have dodged and seen people dodge those crazy fast Russian torps at 4km.  Why fire HE in a battleship?  To knock out modules and and start fires.  In the first few salvos of the match your DD and their DD will be shooting at each other.  They will probably knock a few of their modules out and burn their damage control.  Then when you come in a little bit later and lay those massive battleship HE rounds on them they have nothing to repair their broken stuff with.  I have taken out torp tubes and guns many times and nearly always knock out steering or propulsion on DD.  They are sitting ducks for you and your team mates at that point.  In this scenario you need your DD to draw early enemy torps and spot ships for you.  You friendly cruisers could also be by your side laying fire down on the enemy.  It will be a thick melee fight and the side that has the best chance of winning is your team because you are there with a large health pool and large guns (and small guns!).

How do you fight a pack of cruisers?  These are a little tougher to pin down due to their speed and agility.  Unlike DD they do not want to get close to you and most have the speed to stay away from you.  When you are at or near your max engagement range you should fire HE at them.  Break modules, start fires, make them burn that damage control.  When you get to 10km or less choose the appropriate ammo type for the ship you are shooting.  I shoot HE at French and British, and AP on the rest.  You still get citadels with HE rounds and you can keep their modules broken longer or on fire more.  At this point it will be up to the enemy whether or not your secondaries light up.  If they close range and charge you, treat them like a DD and drive like a drunken pirate.  If they run away, well just keep shooting at them and cap your objective.

 

To get your secondaries to shine YOU have to put yourself in a place to use them.  They will suck if you stay at range and never close the gap, they will not be very good if you close the gap but don't invest resources into them.  They will be glorious if you push into the enemy and invest resources into their use.  You aren't the tip of the spear, you are the wrecking ball that comes in behind it.

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