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USSRichardNixon

The Most Paper Ship Ranked?

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Can we organize the "fake" ships in the game from the most hypothetical paper or pure fabrication (HMS Monarch) design to those actually laid-down (Amagi?)?

 

Edited by USSRichardNixon

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Monarch isn't pure fabrication...

 

But it would be a neat idea to see the list created, so that I totally support!

Edited by Sock5

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Montana wasn't laid down, but it was pretty damn close. I'll give it a shot with some examples in game.

 

Started construction but not finished

- F. der Grosse (H-39)

- Lion

- Z-46

- Ibuki

- Amagi

 

Finalized detail design, but canceled

- Montana

- Neptune

- Moskva

 

Preliminary design, not finalized

- Kii

- Izumo

- Yorck

- Conqueror (L2 with 457 mm guns)

- Saint Louis (propulsion and armor were not finalized)

 

"Fake" ships

- Grosser Kurfurst

- Hindenburg

- Roon

- Zao

- Hakuryu

- Conqueror (with 419 mm guns)

- Henri IV

 

This is just ships in game I can think of off the top of my head.

Edited by DeliciousFart
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4 minutes ago, DeliciousFart said:

Montana wasn't laid down, but it was pretty damn close. I'll give it a shot with some examples in game.

 

Started construction but not finished

- F. der Grosse (H-39)

- Lion

- Z-46

- Ibuki

 

Finalized detail design, but canceled

- Montana

- Neptune

- Moskva

- Amagi

 

Preliminary design, not finalized

- Kii

- Izumo

- Yorck

- Conqueror (L2 with 457 mm guns)

 

"Fake" ships

- Grosser Kurfurst

- Zao

- Hakuryu

- Conqueror (with 419 mm guns)

 

This is just ships in game I can think of off the top of my head.

the construction of amagi started ... 

 

 

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Kurrywurst could fit preliminary, except for the triple mount turrets WG gave her.  It's just a mix of H-41 and H-42, turrets are from an early project to design triple mount 16" guns for the USSR.

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FYI Monarch isn't really a pure fabrication and a Montana was never laid down! :)

 

I'll bet you're thinking of the other two Iowas that were never completed.  Illinois and Kentucky were notionally supposed to be Montana hulls but they were never laid down as such and ended up being completed far enough as Iowa hulls to be floated out of the drydocks to make space for more urgent construction (i.e.: escorts and aircraft carriers).

 

The Monarch is one of many design studies that were worked up for what eventually became the KGVs and the Lions. In fact the 9 x 15" version was preferred byt the Admiralty, however the London Treaty nixed that design in favour of the 14" gun, hence the bizarre configuration and somewhat heavy armour for the KGV.  Of all the powers in the game, I would say that the UK probably has the most realistic "paper" ships simply because the Director of Naval Construction in the RN was well staffed and worked constantly on capital ship design straight through both wars.  Their designs tended to be very conservative when they got to the shipbuilders (i.e.: they never assumed that they would rely on breakthroughs in more compact machinery or lighter weight weapons to make up for an overweight hull) and with the exception of interwar treaty cruisers (which were extremely displacement constrained) pretty much every blueprint they sent to the builders would come in under displacement.

 

I'd order them something like this I suppose. Keep in mind the use of the word 'realism' is relative here.

 

More or less imaginary (i.e.: beyond any reasonable industrial or design capacity of the country in question during the period from 1900-1950 and/or with no meaningful tactical or strategic purpose that would result in their actual procurement):

  • Moskva
  • Khabarovsk
  • Grozovoi
  • Grosser Kurfuerst
  • F. der Grosse

Buildable, but not very realistic (i.e.: the ship would have ultimately been weaker than it is depicted due to the fact that the design never had to be finalized with real machinery and or weapons systems in mind):

  • Hindenburg/Roon
  • Udaloi
  • Hakuryu
  • Taiho (yes I know it was real, but it was intended to be an aircraft transport and repair ship, not a frontline strike carrier -- it was certainly not comparable to the Midway in 1945)  I meant Shinano.  Taiho was used as an office building and submarine target.  They're easy confuse since they have similar war records! :)
  • Henri IV
  • Conqueror
  • Minotaur

Completely out of place (both of these ships are essentially mid-Cold War upgrades of much less capable designs):

  • Belfast
  • Kutuzov

Only slightly unrealistic:

  • Z-52/Z-46
  • Orlan
  • Montana
  • Zao
  • Neptune (the DP 6" guns weren't going to be ready in 1944)

Realistic, but not real (i.e.: there was a real design that was finished by a country that had the actual capability to build it):

  • Monarch
  • Charles Martel
  • St. Louis
  • Friant
  • Yorck
  • Gaede
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5 minutes ago, K538 said:

Taiho (yes I know it was real, but it was intended to be an aircraft transport and repair ship, not a frontline strike carrier -- it was certainly not comparable to the Midway in 1945)

 

incoming annoyed people in 3...2...1...

 

(also, thinking you may be getting her confused with Shinano)

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5 minutes ago, Tedster_ said:

 

incoming annoyed people in 3...2...1...

 

(also, thinking you may be getting her confused with Shinano)

 

I am and I stand corrected.  That'll teach me to half [edited]a semi serious post from memory! :)  That said, Taiho was still quite a bit less effective than depicted in-game as compared to US carriers.

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32 minutes ago, DeliciousFart said:

Montana wasn't laid down, but it was pretty damn close. I'll give it a shot with some examples in game.

 

Started construction but not finished

- F. der Grosse (H-39)

- Lion

- Z-46

- Ibuki

- Amagi

 

Finalized detail design, but canceled

- Montana

- Neptune

- Moskva

 

Preliminary design, not finalized

- Kii

- Izumo

- Yorck

- Conqueror (L2 with 457 mm guns)

- Saint Louis

 

"Fake" ships

- Grosser Kurfurst

- Zao

- Hakuryu

- Conqueror (with 419 mm guns)

- Henri IV

 

This is just ships in game I can think of off the top of my head.

Why do you list Lion as started, but conq 457 as design not finalized and conq 419 as fake? 

 

You imply that Lion 419 was planned.

 

I mean if you go to armament, there are way more that should be on the list. Not sure why you singled out conq in this way other than that you don't like the 419 guns.

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19 minutes ago, K538 said:

FYI Monarch isn't really a pure fabrication and a Montana was never laid down! :)

 

I'll bet you're thinking of the other two Iowas that were never completed.  Illinois and Kentucky were notionally supposed to be Montana hulls but they were never laid down as such and ended up being completed far enough as Iowa hulls to be floated out of the drydocks to make space for more urgent construction (i.e.: escorts and aircraft carriers).

 

The Monarch is one of many design studies that were worked up for what eventually became the KGVs and the Lions. In fact the 9 x 15" version was preferred byt the Admiralty, however the London Treaty nixed that design in favour of the 14" gun, hence the bizarre configuration and somewhat heavy armour for the KGV.  Of all the powers in the game, I would say that the UK probably has the most realistic "paper" ships simply because the Director of Naval Construction in the RN was well staffed and worked constantly on capital ship design straight through both wars.  Their designs tended to be very conservative when they got to the shipbuilders (i.e.: they never assumed that they would rely on breakthroughs in more compact machinery or lighter weight weapons to make up for an overweight hull) and with the exception of interwar treaty cruisers (which were extremely displacement constrained) pretty much every blueprint they sent to the builders would come in under displacement.

 

I'd order them something like this I suppose. Keep in mind the use of the word 'realism' is relative here.

 

More or less imaginary (i.e.: beyond any reasonable industrial or design capacity of the country in question during the period from 1900-1950 and/or with no meaningful tactical or strategic purpose that would result in their actual procurement):

  • Moskva
  • Khabarovsk
  • Grozovoi
  • Grosser Kurfuerst
  • F. der Grosse

Buildable, but not very realistic (i.e.: the ship would have ultimately been weaker than it is depicted due to the fact that the design never had to be finalized with real machinery and or weapons systems in mind):

  • Hindenburg/Roon
  • Udaloi
  • Hakuryu
  • Taiho (yes I know it was real, but it was intended to be an aircraft transport and repair ship, not a frontline strike carrier -- it was certainly not comparable to the Midway in 1945)  I meant Shinano.  Taiho was used as an office building and submarine target.  They're easy confuse since they have similar war records! :)
  • Henri IV
  • Conqueror
  • Minotaur

Completely out of place (both of these ships are essentially mid-Cold War upgrades of much less capable designs):

  • Belfast
  • Kutuzov

Only slightly unrealistic:

  • Z-52/Z-46
  • Orlan
  • Montana
  • Zao
  • Neptune (the DP 6" guns weren't going to be ready in 1944)

Realistic, but not real (i.e.: there was a real design that was finished by a country that had the actual capability to build it):

  • Monarch
  • Charles Martel
  • St. Louis
  • Friant
  • Yorck
  • Gaede

Was FDG laid down? H-39?

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1 minute ago, USSRichardNixon said:

Was FDG laid down? H-39?

I believe the first two of the H-39s were officially laid down, but never completed.

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29 minutes ago, Sirus_Patton said:

Kurrywurst could fit preliminary, except for the triple mount turrets WG gave her.  It's just a mix of H-41 and H-42, turrets are from an early project to design triple mount 16" guns for the USSR.

The H-41 is a finalized design, and not seen in game. The FDG top hull is basically the H-39 with late-war German radar (like the ones on Tirpitz) fitted on, and H-41 gun as an upgrade option. The hull itself is still H-39.

 

H-42 to H-44 are not even formal designs, since the Office of Naval Construction (the people who actually perform detailed design work on ships) weren't involved. They were more of an industrial study, and their details were very rough and sometimes contradictory. They're pretty much like the Tillman Maximum battleships of the USN. None of the H designs used triple turrets, and the GK is pretty much a kitbash of various German design concepts fused together. Hindenburg is similar.

 

6 minutes ago, Prkl8r said:

Why do you list Lion as started, but conq 457 as design not finalized and conq 419 as fake? 

 

You imply that Lion 419 was planned.

 

I mean if you go to armament, there are way more that should be on the list. Not sure why you singled out conq in this way other than that you don't like the 419 guns.

Because Lion 1939 design was actually laid down, though construction was suspended shortly after due to shifting priorities and industrial bottlenecks (namely turrets). On the other hand, the 419 mm guns are purely paper study, and none of the Lion designs would ever even considered the 419 mms. Also, the L2 design that the Conqueror is supposedly based on had 4x2 457 mm guns, with the 419 mm guns not even being a part of the preliminary design.

Edited by DeliciousFart

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5 minutes ago, Sirus_Patton said:

I believe the first two of the H-39s were officially laid down, but never completed.

That is my understanding as well. They were begun, and then scrapped on the slips for U boat materials.

 

Pity.

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Just now, USSRichardNixon said:

Is FDG in game same as H39?

FDG is H-39, though it can upgrade to the 420mm guns planned for H-41.

 

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Thread disappointed.

 

You guys forgot Myogi, Ichizuchi, Phoenix, and Nicholas.

Edited by AraAragami

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I bet no one knew this but the t4 american ship Phenix is fake ship too, only paper design but never actually build. i think that's the lowest tier fake ship in game. 

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3 minutes ago, userz123 said:

I bet no one knew this but the t4 american ship Phenix is fake ship too, only paper design but never actually build. i think that's the lowest tier fake ship in game. 

Orlan, the tier 1 Soviet cruiser, is a paper design.

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10 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Orlan, the tier 1 Soviet cruiser, is a paper design.

true that. 

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59 minutes ago, K538 said:

 

Realistic, but not real (i.e.: there was a real design that was finished by a country that had the actual capability to build it):

  • Monarch
  • Charles Martel
  • St. Louis
  • Friant
  • Yorck
  • Gaede

 

Don't forget Nicholas and Phoenix.

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1 hour ago, USSRichardNixon said:

Was FDG laid down? H-39?

 

A few thousand tonnes of steel was ordered for them and a keel was laid but there was only ever about 60-80 days of construction, but I suppose so.  My point though was that the ship in-game is some other mutant variant of a Hitler supership or a paper idea just for game balance rather than a video game reproduction of what those keels would have become (e.g.: the H39 was strictly a 406mm design, there's no 420mm main battery that the Germans considered even in it's later paper revisions after construction was halted).

 

I consider the German BBs after Bismarck/Tirpitz to be fantasy for game purposes and not really based on anything historical, but that's my personal opinion.  The WG wiki says that it's an H39 but it doesn't actually match anything the Germans ever designed when fully upgraded.

 

In this regard I should probably include the top upgrade of the Lions as well, though I think the rest of the design is more faithful to something that was actually being built.

 

That's just my opinion though, YMMV.

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4 hours ago, DeliciousFart said:

Montana wasn't laid down, but it was pretty damn close. I'll give it a shot with some examples in game.

 

Started construction but not finished

- F. der Grosse (H-39)

- Lion

- Z-46

- Ibuki

- Amagi

 

Finalized detail design, but canceled

- Montana

- Neptune

- Moskva

 

Preliminary design, not finalized

- Kii

- Izumo

- Yorck

- Conqueror (L2 with 457 mm guns)

- Saint Louis (propulsion and armor were not finalized)

 

"Fake" ships

- Grosser Kurfurst

- Hindenburg

- Roon

- Zao

- Hakuryu

- Conqueror (with 419 mm guns)

- Henri IV

 

This is just ships in game I can think of off the top of my head.

- Hakuryu belongs in the second to last category. She was a preliminary, unfinalized version of an upgraded Taiho design.

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Uh, I just realized that DeliciousFart labled Zao as a fantasy ship.  It's technically a fully designed ship, but "Heavy Cruiser Design Study Type A 1941" is a really terrible name for a ship.

 

Type A Cruiser:
This ship was designed in early 1941 for the Dai-Roku-Ji Kaigun Gunbi Hojū Keikaku (Sixth Naval Armaments Supplement Program), also known as Maru 6 Keikaku (Circle Six Program) but the plan was quickly shelved and replaced with the 1941 wartime construction program in september 1941.
the 1941 Type A cruiser was planned as an eight-ship class, 218 meters long, armed with twelve 8-inch (203mm) guns in triple turrets and twelve 3.9-inch (100mm) guns in twin turrets (the same model that would eventually see service with the Akizuki class destroyers) and a 5.5-inch(140mm) planned armour belt would have been a match even for the Des Moines heavy cruisers (at least in terms of dimensions and firepower).
 

Source: Shipbucket

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