Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
Quaffer

Them's Fightin' Words, redux

28 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

3,673
Supertester, Alpha Tester
6,024 posts

Posters who make demands in their posts may think they are demonstrating the strength of their convictions. e.g.

We demand ...

WG must ...

Eliminate it NOW...

Banish ...

... or else ...

To me it just looks like they don't know how to make their case.  Most people respond to belligerent demands by getting their hackles up.  The knee jerk response is to reject the argument out of course because "No one tells me what I can have/do...".

On the flip side, when someone opens a dialog, people are more likely to read the argument without rejecting it out of hand. They may disagree but at least they will finish reading the post. As an example I'll grind one of my favorite axes that no one seems to care about but yours truly:

I would like WarGaming to restore the ability of battleships and cruisers to set way points for their scout planes.  I found it very helpful in Alpha and it gave me something to do while waiting for my guns to reload when I was using a battleship.  The early identification of the enemy movements helped form strategies... I welcome your thoughts on this idea.

See, you may think the idea is idiotic, but I have put nothing there to offend and I opened it up to discussion. Posters may reply that they do not want the hassle of setting way points on the map, because they don't want to open the strategic map, or because they fear they will lose the 'let's peek over the island mode', but they will read the post and think about it without rejecting it out of hand, because my language did not imply that I should be in control of the decision making process, or folks that disagreed had better watch out!

If you want to get people to come around to your point of view, a good start is to not make them angry.


Now I shall drop the other foot. Here are a few comments on style.

If you want people to read your post:

Capitalize the first words in a sentence, proper nouns, and acronyms. Leave the rest lower case.

Use punctuation and good grammar.

Don't use texting short cuts.

Use spell check.

If you mess something up, edit it.


Why?  There's one reason for all these five points, and it has nothing to do with my being a former newsletter editor.  Do it because it makes it easier to read.  It may take more work to type but its worth it.  If something is hard to read it won't get read. Nothing forces a reader to read a post. The easier it is to read, the better your chances are of making your point.

If you start a new thread put a little thought into the title.  If you want to change it you can edit it with the "Use Full Editor" button. The thread title should tell the reader something of what's inside.  False advertising makes people grumpy.

Well I think I've spent enough of my time and your goodwill on my soap box.

In closing; I thank you for your kind attention.

 


P.S.

Those who are long in the tooth may remember this thread from a former incarnation.  I brought it back because I've been noticing quite a few threads that are making demands.

I did not necro the last one because there were some troll posts on it that I do not want refreshed.  I have nothing against a good troll as long as they are creative and their grammar is up to at least third grade standards, but the language was truly execrable.  I have a hard time believing the posts weren't censored by our moderators.  Well they can't catch everything.

Respectfully yours,

Quaffer

  • Cool 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,819
Members
5,574 posts
7,121 battles

VNheSRp.png.5a9d94606f37df38bb201f7894de941f.png

 

 

 

Oh the memories of that thread.

 

Prime example..

Edited by Wulfgarn
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
148
[CUTIE]
Beta Testers
1,721 posts
2,549 battles

Yep. If there is one pic to describe it with, it is this one that got the honour of being the 2nd to last post, excluding Pigeon of War.

IMG_1819.JPG.0a1f7b250982a1cb131b22ed2cb5332c.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
843
[SSG]
Alpha Tester
3,370 posts
7,948 battles

Don't get me wrong, I generally agree with the post, I have seen a good many of those threads of which you speak. And I openly admit that, it doesn't even have to be belligerent just the instant you say something like your trying to control me or tell me what to do, I'll not do it to spite you.

 

That said, I have used when talking about Wargaming, namely CV's words like Needs to, Has to, must. I have also agreed with "We demand" type threads in some cases - but there is a point where Wargaming is a business, we are the customers, and there is a point where sometimes, the line to be more civil and all gets crossed because it reaches a point we've lost patience. Much as our views may be different, everyone generally wants the same thing, a balanced game, decent premiums, etc. And there is a point, especially given the success this company had at one point, we are generally going to demand they do better, and that they stop certain things that anger the community in a whole.

 

And there is a point, we have been going the more discussion route. But let's take CV's, a year from they first appeared just to get the aircraft sorted out. They haven't had the changes they really needed since Alpha/Beta, issues have persisted that long. They released Saipan and GZ as they did, both of which backfired, one being OP and one being just a spectacular failure. We ask nicely for buffs to USN and they just give the planes more ammo further breaking the fact their fighters walk over IJN's. They constantly buff AA instead of deal with the real issue, manual drops. They add AP bombs that devastate BB's and may well make that group cry for AA buffs again when all they had to do was change DB accuracy. They buffed rudder shift rates and turn time. CV's are the only class with limited ammo that is affected by AA (aircraft are treated and registered as ammunition even if they refill ordnance) and the only class shut down by being set on fire and the skill they make you take to counter that is just North of worthless and not by much if it really is at all. There are point where we tried discussion, rational even discussion, but Wargaming has drawn a line on some of these or refuses to acknowledge issues or that they made a mistake. And so we come to a point past where we have "would like", "think" etc. and to a point when it comes to CV's people on both sides just want them balanced because it has been too long. And just because you start that way doesn't mean you don't know how to make a case or that your not open to discussion on the idea. It may simply be how they choose to phrase their beliefs and line up with how strongly they feel on the subject.

 

Yes, the all caps ragers who just say "GET RID OF IT IT SUCKS AND I HATE IT", do fall under the category you list of likely unable to make their case. Some say Wargaming must change something, eliminate something, they have the means to make a case. I can not speak for anyone but myself, but even if I use some of these same lines you say and all, I'm open to discussion. Some things you show me enough or explain it better, I can change my position, like in the thread I got on UK CV's and debate over GZ's plane count where I've come to realize it can hold a great many more. Some things, definitely harder, no one has made an argument for keeping manual drop that's changed my mind that it needs to go, and that the game is better and easier to balance with out it and that there's no "skill" loss because auto drops are not as simple as set and forget if you play right and want to do well, except maybe DB's. Admittedly, there are a few things no one will change my mind on, however, those are things like the Bf-109E, or what it's called in it's carrier modification, T, a 1938 vintage aircraft, being a tier 8 plane, of which my opinion is "no way in hell". There is no way your convincing me it belongs in the same tier as the Corsair and A7M, it's unlikely you can convince me it even belongs against the Hellcat and A6M5c.

 

But then again, I have to circle back to "Waraming is a business". We the players read these posts, and maybe get our hackles up especially if we see it's about a class we play, and especially if we see the poster hasn't touched it or has limited experience. But we are individual human beings. As a business, Wargaming has to look at it differently. They can't just double down the instant they see "we demand this" on not giving it to us, not unless they shutter the place. If a Domino's store is constantly sending people the wrong food, or taking forever, customers are going to first demand you fix the problem because they may like and want your product/service, but they want it right and all, before they say enough and try going elsewhere. You can't make business personal. I worked at a Domino's, I worked at a start-up Pizza place, I now work at a stadium, I actually did well in Business classes, and the reason is that yes, in the back of my head, I may have other thoughts, irritated, frustrated, whatever. But I understand well the fact that yeah, someone is yelling at me because 5 other people pointed them to where I am but they should be on the other side of the building, because a pizza got there and was wrong, or it was cold when it got there, but it's not necessarily at me and it's because maybe, or probably, something is wrong. It's one thing to ignore the guys that type all caps and have maybe 4 sentences, if that. Odds are that it's nonconstructive and offers little to nothing into why it's an issue and how to fix it. Someone that still is a bit more demanding, but write out a coherent (or at least mostly coherent), clearly thought out wall of text, even better if using numbers and sources and all, first instinct may be as a person get your hackles up, but business mode needs to kick in and get you off that line of thinking and looking to see what they say.

 

And that just goes without saying that some people just write with that kind of tone or wording on subjects or generally. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,480
[PSP]
Members
6,038 posts
8,580 battles

In the military and civilian emergency services I oftentimes had to be brusque because a situation required immediate action. However, in most circumstances, I generally find polite phrasing goes a long way. The old adage "you can attract more flies with honey than vinegar" oftentimes works wonders. Even in routine matters like ordering lunch I tend to say things like "could I get," rather than "give me" or "I want." Demands rarely accomplish much unless the person demanding is doing so from a position of power; requests with explanations as to why something might be better if changed usually accomplish more.

 

Speaking of CVs, WG does listen to it's playerbase. Today I saw a test version of a carrier with a non-standard loadout that was being evaluated.

Edited by Snargfargle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
843
[SSG]
Alpha Tester
3,370 posts
7,948 battles
28 minutes ago, Quaffer said:

Elegantly phrased, Wandering Ghost.

Thank you I try.

 

1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

Speaking of CVs, WG does listen to it's playerbase. Today I saw a test version of a carrier with a non-standard loadout that was being evaluated.

 

Here's the thing, unless you can provide pictures, I take it with a grain of salt as that doesn't generally seem like something they would test on live server, the one exception being GZ for reasons, because that can cause some major confusion and issues unlike a brand new ship. As well as I'll believe it when I see it. But that is beside the point.

 

CV's were introduced 2 years and 7-8 months ago. Most other classes have gotten whatever changes they wanted/needed over the course of time. Especially changes that Nerfed CV's against them. You've gotten line splits, full new lines, etc. It took a year to get better known and appropriate for the CV aircraft to the right ships, and the ones without at least got better aircraft than they historically had. Modders fixed that issue in a couple weeks. USN was king of the skies, they removed the extra TB group from high tiers and the fighters from Lex, leaving us still with USN having the superior fighters still and IJN unable to generally contest the air without strafe. USN, since the removal of that torp group and in some cases before that, has always had issues with damage, that have gotten worse as AA has been buffed meaning their main strike component is screwed and their method, staking fires, is near unusable. We asked them to improve the strike ability, some wanted more TB's, some of us were more rational just asking for slightly more accurate DB's, an easy change it should be, instead they buffed fighter ammo further breaking that power balance and Saipan. Manual drops has been an issue since Alpha and their only response has been make ships turn better and buff AA, mostly, buff AA which has cause problems in other areas. That and Strafe have caused a serious skill gap issue and CV accessibility issue that it took two years to get it removed at tiers 4 and 5, because the clubbing was getting too much against everyone, which then caused issue because tier 5 still sees tier 6. They have never truly addressed the power balance issue between tiers, they made it worse between 5 and 6, and their solution for anything above 7 is "one carrier only". Giving top tier tier 7 a possible huge advantage. Saipan was and is still an issue made worse by ammo buffs and exit strafes, namely that it loses no fighters. Kaga is balanced except that little issue of manual drops, E, I'd have to play one to judge torps but AP bombs cause some issues. And we have the mess that was GZ that 3 TB groups were too powerful, they should have known that from Taiho, so 3 DB groups but they only give them 5 planes that aren't very good because they have tier 7ish HP because they are C model Stuka's, and they see tier 10, like E, with tier 7 planes, in perspective, they have 30hp fewer than the IJN tier 8 DB that had less armour protection historically and takes fairly heavy losses in game but, like it's real world counterpart is faster than the stuka. On top of fighters, again, geared more to a lower tier ingame stats wise and absolutely historically. 9 damage less against the N1K's 4x 20 mm cannons and a better turning airframe, with the same armament as the A6M1? Oh by the way, AS gets you on par with a stock USN CV that sure, is only 2 more DPS but ends up as 12 overall, has more hitpoints, more ammo and is slightly slower. Oh right, IJN plane is also slightly slower, more damage, almost even ammo and more hitpoints. Which several of us said just based on THAT, knowing that historically these were not tier 8 aircraft, this would likely end bad. Whoever does their aircraft research should have heard they wanted to put a 1938 Bf-109E modification and 1938 Stuka variant at tier 8, and reenacted the Spiderman scene where JJJ starts laughing. Let alone inline liquid cooled engines, not as durable as radials. Doing the math I think I calculated that GZ's max hanger space they could use based on new info was 100+ planes, and possibly a deck park for more, meaning you could give it tier 6 and 7 planes, maybe add a unique upgrade to it and the additional slot E got for bomber HP, and give it 90-100+ tier 6 or 7 planes, or 6 fighters and 7 bombers (as the Stuka C model is at least comparable enough in design and all to the D3A and SBD) maybe with slightly larger groups than USN has to compensate and give them better hit rates with DB's and start fires and DD hunt with a smaller bomb but more of them. Last year, we were promised great surprises - we got nerfs, further breaking of the fighter meta, and oh, removal of jets, not everyone was a fan and historical aircraft. This year, we were promised a CV rework, it was inferred heavily we would see UK CV's, as well as E, Kaga, and against the wishes of a few GZ as a premium, all of which post rework. So all 3 premiums have been released, the rework is nowhere in sight, and if UK CV's are in fact the second line they too are no where in sight, Kaga spurned outrage cause manual drops are more devastating than Hiryu's, E has run into issues between TB's drop pattern and how it works according to some, and it's AP bombs apparently nuking BB's to an extent, I know trying to maneuver my Scharn I've been one shot killed by one, and GZ was pulled from sale in 24 hours with how bad it was and the outrage it sparked to a point CC's refused to even give it a proper review, said to not by it, and seems they and ST's were of a mind saying "do not release it like this". 

 

Or to put it more simply, what change we have gotten really since Beta, has been slow, required what felt like a fight to get it done or any movement, and oh yeah, some of what they did do wasn't the changes we wanted or needed.

 

Swapping out the ingame model for the wildcat to replace a bi-plane should not have been that hard, and modders did it faster. Beyond the finer balance detail's of how much is too much, IJN should have had DPS raised and USN lowered to flip and change chance to down a plane per second that IJN's fewer planes with less ammo had a higher initial chance with USN having ammo to endure longer also losing less DPS if it loses a plane, which should be easier to change the numbers just how much is needed would be the weeks of testing, DB's accuracy, the same thing this should just take a couple number changes and 1-2 other things to fix especially when you have DB's in game to base the changes around, just disable manual drop and reduce the DPS increase of strafe to lets say .1-.5 max or none but just lowers fighter DPS temporarily for ones caught in it's path and makes bombers less accurate as it used to be because hey, other than fighters were boring before manual drop it was a matter AA just needed to be buffed mainly at higher tiers with jets. Most of the changes that should have been made should have been made a long time ago, should not have required us to fight, beg, and plead this much, and should not be that hard to make.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
843
[SSG]
Alpha Tester
3,370 posts
7,948 battles
6 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

 

 

gztest.jpg

 

Assuming that is GZ test, meaning Graf Zeppelin, the one exception meaning they aren't really testing anything but how to fix that mess that should have never went live anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,694
[YORHA]
Members
3,244 posts
6 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

 

 

gztest.jpg

 

I have seen GZTest1 and GZTest 2 variants.

 

But here is the dumb question.  Is there something in that picture that confirms a non standard load-out, or it that an assumption based on the history of the project?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
470 posts
6,352 battles

I prefer to write and respond to threads in the original Klingon:

Klingon: Duj sis SaS

English: This ship sucks

Klingon: tlhoy qul 'eb

English: Too much chance of fire

https://i.imgflip.com/1huzd2.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,480
[PSP]
Members
6,038 posts
8,580 battles
1 hour ago, JCC45 said:

 

I have seen GZTest1 and GZTest 2 variants.

 

But here is the dumb question.  Is there something in that picture that confirms a non standard load-out, or it that an assumption based on the history of the project?

Several people in the game mentioned that his loadout was different from the issued GZ. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,694
[YORHA]
Members
3,244 posts
12 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

Several people in the game mentioned that his loadout was different from the issued GZ. 

 Aha.  Good.  I thought I was missing something on the screen.

 

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,877 posts
5,187 battles

@Quaffer -

Very good points.  Many people don't realize the power of discussion vs. demands.  Many people also do not realize that a grammatically correct post actually presents a better position than one with spelling errors or incorrect use of words like they're, there, and their.  I blame the commonality of internet chat and texting for the latter.  It has bred a culture where grammar and correct sentence structure is secondary to being able to simply and quickly convey a thought or point of view.  The spelling aspect there is almost no excuse for.  If you misspell a word, it has a little red line under it.  Right click, select correct spelling, continue.  My typing is horrible so even if I know what I want to type, a lot of times it is incorrect.  Rather than try to redo it, this simple tool is almost seamless in allowing me to continue without backspacing every 4th word I type. 

Reading comprehension also seems to be lacking.  In an age where most people gather information from either just reading a headline, or from some clever meme, the actual act of reading through a subject before forming an opinion is almost a dead concept.  I post a few topics where I will present an idea, or train of thought, that is left open for discussion.  It always amazes me how many people jump in with attacks as if my topic was somehow a definite position or stance.  Clearly they didn't take the time to read the post, or even any of the comments that had followed.   The topic's title was enough to trigger them and they obviously couldn't be bothered to look any further into it before posting a counter attack to the perceived threat or to take an opportunity to display their superiority on the subject.

The old adage that, "You catch more flies with sugar." comes to mind.   In my humble opinion, it is generally better to present an idea and see what sort of support or opposition exists before you decide to draw a line in the sand.  If you simply start by drawing a line, you may find yourself of the wrong side of popular opinion and in a position you cannot either easily defend, or retract.   If the matter is one that you feel so strongly about that you are willing to defend your principals "no matter what.", then fine.   Though most of the demand or final straw topics I read are rarely defended in that manner.  I am not sure how many people threatened to quit the game after the fire bloom buff to counter invisi fire, but I know a lot of them are still here. 

 

Edited by CaptGodzillaPig
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,673
Supertester, Alpha Tester
6,024 posts

Thanks GP.

I enjoyed your post and appreciated your return to the topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,877 posts
5,187 battles
29 minutes ago, Quaffer said:

Thanks GP.

I enjoyed your post and appreciated your return to the topic.

I enjoyed your observations as well.  Though looking back I think I may have misquoted the old adage.  It might be, "You catch more flies with sugar than vinegar.".   I suppose I could google it and be sure, but I prefer to exercise my brain...as foggy as it may be sometimes these days.   :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,877 posts
5,187 battles
2 hours ago, Siegewolf said:

I prefer to write and respond to threads in the original Klingon:

Klingon: Duj sis SaS

English: This ship sucks

Klingon: tlhoy qul 'eb

English: Too much chance of fire

https://i.imgflip.com/1huzd2.jpg

Dude..  A few years ago you could have scored a cushy state employee job as a Klingon interpreter here in Oregon.  This actually made national news as a huge embarrassment for the State, but this was the deal.  Oregon was in the middle of a budget crisis where schools were being closed early and state offices were being shut down due to lack of budget.  It was a crap show to say the least.  In the middle of all of this, they actually posted a job opening on the state website for a Kilngon interpreter, to work with the state mental hospitals, to...and I don't kid here..deal with like 2 people that would only speak in Klingon.  Job paid like 75k/yr with full state benefits and retirement.  The job posting made national news as the state of OR was willing to take on a hire for 75k/yr to talk to some loonies in Klingon, but was shutting down schools and cutting police protection because it didn't have enough money to pay them.  This stupid state.  I hate Portland hippies. 

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,480
[PSP]
Members
6,038 posts
8,580 battles
1 hour ago, CaptGodzillaPig said:

@Quaffer -

Reading comprehension also seems to be lacking.  In an age where most people gather information from either just reading a headline, or from some clever meme, the actual act of reading through a subject before forming an opinion is almost a dead concept. 

 

So true. I used to teach biology in college and far too often had students who only wanted to memorize a few "facts" and then regurgitate them on tests rather than develop an understanding of the underlying principles that the facts supported.

 

That said (and you touched on the point as well), walls of text sans proper grammar, punctuation and formatting detract greatly from what a poster is trying to say, even if his viewpoint is a salient one and the information he is trying to present relevant.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,877 posts
5,187 battles
20 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

 

So true. I used to teach biology in college and far too often had students who only wanted to memorize a few "facts" and then regurgitate them on tests rather than develop an understanding of the underlying principles that the facts supported.

 

That said (and you touched on the point as well), walls of text sans proper grammar, punctuation and formatting detract greatly from what a poster is trying to say, even if his viewpoint is a salient one and the information he is trying to present relevant.

Your last point is one I did touch on, but didn't expand.  Thank you for adding a slightly larger view.  A person that attempts to make a point using mainly emoji's, hastily keyboard banging out of random gibberish, and/or text acronyms,  is probably a point that I am going to simply overlook.  I guess my thought is that If you don't care enough about your stance to present it in a proper manner, or even make an attempt to present it in a proper manner, then your conviction or dedication to that point is probably not strong enough that it should warrant me giving it any serious thought or consideration. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,877 posts
5,187 battles
29 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

 

So true. I used to teach biology in college and far too often had students who only wanted to memorize a few "facts" and then regurgitate them on tests rather than develop an understanding of the underlying principles that the facts supported.

 

That said (and you touched on the point as well), walls of text sans proper grammar, punctuation and formatting detract greatly from what a poster is trying to say, even if his viewpoint is a salient one and the information he is trying to present relevant.

And hey.  Big thumbs up to you "mister high school science teacher guy"  (old beer commercial reference).  My grandfather was a high school Chem teacher and one of our good family friends was a Biology teacher at the same school.  I had Mr Robertson as my teacher for Bio.  Really weird being in a class with a guy you have known since you first memories as a kid.  lol. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,480
[PSP]
Members
6,038 posts
8,580 battles
1 hour ago, CaptGodzillaPig said:

I had Mr Robertson as my teacher for Bio.  Really weird being in a class with a guy you have known since you first memories as a kid.  lol. 

 

Having taught thousands of students, oftentimes 200 plus at a time in a single lecture, there is no way that I could remember many of them. However, many of them seem to remember me. This occasionally leads to an amusing occurrence. Once, when I was writing a large check for some vehicle work at a dealership thousands of miles from where I taught, I asked the girl if she need to see some ID. She said "No, you were my biology professor in college." 

Edited by Snargfargle
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,673
Supertester, Alpha Tester
6,024 posts

Bump. Because my grammar nazi is dying to get out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
192
[AR15]
Members
393 posts
2,779 battles
On 9/15/2017 at 2:35 PM, CaptGodzillaPig said:

Dude..  A few years ago you could have scored a cushy state employee job as a Klingon interpreter here in Oregon.  This actually made national news as a huge embarrassment for the State, but this was the deal.  Oregon was in the middle of a budget crisis where schools were being closed early and state offices were being shut down due to lack of budget.  It was a crap show to say the least.  In the middle of all of this, they actually posted a job opening on the state website for a Kilngon interpreter, to work with the state mental hospitals, to...and I don't kid here..deal with like 2 people that would only speak in Klingon.  Job paid like 75k/yr with full state benefits and retirement.  The job posting made national news as the state of OR was willing to take on a hire for 75k/yr to talk to some loonies in Klingon, but was shutting down schools and cutting police protection because it didn't have enough money to pay them.  This stupid state.  I hate Portland hippies. 

Thank you for this, it made my day. lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,877 posts
5,187 battles
2 hours ago, JToney3449 said:

Thank you for this, it made my day. lol

Glad I could help...And this was a timely post as Oregon is back in the national spotlight.  Look around for Oregonians having to pump their own gas.  If you are on any social media at all you have had to see something about this by now.  lol.  Yay Oregon.  Stay weird you flippin' hippies. 

Edited by CaptGodzillaPig

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×