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CaptGodzillaPig

British BB.. Maybe WG isn't totally off their rocker..

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Hear me out..

In the early days there were 2 BB lines.  US and IJN, and Yammy was the undisputed king of the seas.  Tirp and Warspite were there also, but for the moment let's just call them the fringe players.  Data point flyers if you will.   Texas was released as a Prem and just crushed it from day one.  Boss AA, 5 turrets of "freedom", bitchin' 'Murica Camo.  Annnd could actually hold her own in up tier MM at T7 if done right.  ARP ships were everywhere, and Kongo really was a little beast in her own right.  Nagato could just light the map with her range..and add the spotter, and you could smack people salvo after salvo before they could ever get close enough to you to even get a shot off.    The game at the BB level was a pure chess match between the US tank (and AA) and the IJN laser guns and range. 

Then WG dropped the KM line and totally blew everything up.  This wasn't a pebble ripple nref/buff,. this was a nuclear bomb.  No one had an answer for the new kid on the block with bad [edited]armor, guns that hit like a hammer, and the secondaries..oh those seconds.  It deleted Texas/Arizona as a playable ship.  Instantly changed Yammy to a role of cowering behind islands.  Absolutely made a mockery of the US line cits.  Ate every DD that dared to come close.  Cruisers changed their entire to meta to fire starting damage farmers.  Simply, it blew the game up.  And oooh the crying.

But, we all learned to adapt.  Some of us, like myself, jumped from the IJN line and got on the KM wagon.  And we rode it to glory..Others learned to adapt their style in the ship of their liking to counter.  Stealth fire..  Torps walls.  Fire breathing cruisers..  It all sort of evened out.  WG tried to "balance: things that seemed wrong, or were wrong (like stealth fire), but with each little tweak they just seemed to miss the mark and might have solved one issue, but created 4 more. 

So,  blow the game up again.  Drop a fire breathing dragon, in a BB hull, with the ability to literally triple it's HP in a game (if done right) that is the perfect counter to the tank GK that USED TO be able to roam around without much worry.  Suddenly you can't just go bang heads with these guys, because even if you do, you are going to lose the HP battle of attrition.  Not only is it the perfect equalizer to the KM line,  it does to them what the GK did to the Yam.  It makes the GK take pause.  Or if you are smart, avoid the heads up battle.

So, why does all of that make me think WG isn't off their rocker?  It took me a few Pub Test games to figure this out.  The new HMS line is a lot of things, but the one thing it isn't, is immune to torps.  In fact she is pretty easily dispatched by a crafty DD driver.  It took me a few games to catch on, and you probably would only see this in test where guys are running and gunning for fun and just not worrying about anything else, but the old formula..  BB>CA>DD>BB came to mind...  This might be exactly what they had in mind.  The HMS BB's aren't supposed to be countered by the other BB's.  They got dropped in to counter the current OP BB meta. Blow it up the way the KM line did.  The counter to THEM is the stealth torp DD, which WG has sort of been leaning towards for a bit in that line. This could be, and this is just a long shot, a step to pushing back to the original balance formula without having to make massive Nerf/Buff changes. 

Just my theory for the day...

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Interesting theory up until I nuked that Isokaze in one HE salvo from Bellerophon.

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2 minutes ago, AraAragami said:

Interesting theory up until I nuked that Isokaze in one HE salvo from Bellerophon.

Obviously DD's are not immune to fire from HM ships.  I do believe I mentioned "stealth" dd.  lol.  My GK has stolen a lot of lunch money from Shimas...  But I won't say that they aren't still the bane of my existence.  Good for you for killing "A" DD.   I have to admit my theory is biased to higher tier play.  At the lower end everything is pretty much a free for all. 

Edited by CaptGodzillaPig

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Breaking up the BB meta by releasing ships that are far superior to ships that have been in the game the longest is not going to change the meta, it is just breaking the questionable balance that did exist at high tiers.

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It's not the torp issue that makes them balanced. It's that despite the annoyance of HE spamming BBs, they don't have carry potential and can't win games. At first I thought they might be over the top OP, but then when I actually played them I realized they are not very good even though they have gaudy damaged numbers. I posted this to another thread, using solo numbers of obviate the effect of divisions and using long-term numbers to hint at how they might perform over time:
++++++++++++++++

What it really shows is that UK BBs have poor carry potential even though they do great damage. To carry you have to be able to kill ships that need killing, and UK BBs simply lack the ability to put ships down when they need to be put down. Here are the T7 BBs, solo, min 100 battles, ALL (not two weeks), NA server:
 

Nelson 53.13% 62,923
KGV 51.80% 64,112
Scharn 51.78% 51,360
Hood 51.13% 49,897
Gneis 50.20% 47,102
Nagato 49.57% 47,771
Colorado 48.38% 41,249

 

The KGV really jumps out for damage -- the Nelson in overall performance is a much better ship, with excellent damage and good win rates -- the heal is its hidden advantage. The KGV just barely edges out Scharnhorst in win rate even though Scharn has thousands of games by players of many different skill levels, being a very popular ship. It's very likely that as more potatoes rise to KGV these win rates will deteriorate to Colorado-like levels (insert obligatory buff the Colorado! call... or is this an evil plot by WG to say "We don't need to buff Colorado, look, KGV is nearly as bad").


Here is the data for T8 (solo, min 100 battles, ALL (not two weeks), NA server):

 

Alabama 52.02% 54,927
Monarch 51.24% 64,591
Amagi 51.08% 57,613
Bismarck 50.99% 57,019
Tirpitz 49.23% 49,351
N Carolina 48.84% 48,873

 

Same situation. Monarch stands out, but Alabama can carry because it has real AP and can put ships down (I omitted Alabama ST which has <400 games and is played by experienced players), while Monarch has UK Almost PiercingTM. Note that anyone can purchase Alabama, so like Scharn she is owned by people of wide skill levels. Whereas to get to Monarch this early implies you have tons of free XP which implies tons of experience. Yet she is just barely ahead of Amagi even though Amagi is widely played by players of all skill levels. When Monarch deteriorates....

Here is T4 where the Orion is widely considered OP (solo, min 100 battles, ALL (not two weeks), NA server):
 

Nikolai 59.28% 47,541
Ark B 53.56% 36,213
Ishi 51.44% 29,678
Orion 51.32% 43,873
Kaiser 51.06% 36,893
Wyoming 49.52% 27,464
Myogi 48.08% 23,336

 

Orion is behind only Nik in damage, but look -- even Ishi has better carry potential, because of its speed, I expect, and the recent buffs whose effect is not shown in the long-term damage numbers. Orion's win rate numbers will fall, too, as more potatoes work their way up the line. 

The UK BBs pile up gaudy damage numbers, but they are a dramatic illustration of how it's not the amount of damage you do, but the kind and target of damage, that is more important. 
+++++++++++++

Now the question is how well WG understood the balance issue. I have no idea since the devs don't communicate well with the player base. But on the whole they have done a good job balancing most ship lines.

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Just now, Taichunger said:

It's not the torp issue that makes them balanced. It's that despite the annoyance of HE spamming BBs, they don't have carry potential and can't win games. At first I thought they might be over the top OP, but then when I actually played them I realized they are not very good even though they have gaudy damaged numbers. I posted this to another thread, using solo numbers of obviate the effect of divisions and using long-term numbers to hint at how they might perform over time:
++++++++++++++++

What it really shows is that UK BBs have poor carry potential even though they do great damage. To carry you have to be able to kill ships that need killing, and UK BBs simply lack the ability to put ships down when they need to be put down. Here are the T7 BBs, solo, min 100 battles, ALL (not two weeks), NA server:
 

Nelson 53.13% 62,923
KGV 51.80% 64,112
Scharn 51.78% 51,360
Hood 51.13% 49,897
Gneis 50.20% 47,102
Nagato 49.57% 47,771
Colorado 48.38% 41,249

 

The KGV really jumps out for damage -- the Nelson in overall performance is a much better ship, with excellent damage and good win rates -- the heal is its hidden advantage. The KGV just barely edges out Scharnhorst in win rate even though Scharn has thousands of games by players of many different skill levels, being a very popular ship. It's very likely that as more potatoes rise to KGV these win rates will deteriorate to Colorado-like levels (insert obligatory buff the Colorado! call... or is this an evil plot by WG to say "We don't need to buff Colorado, look, KGV is nearly as bad").


Here is the data for T8 (solo, min 100 battles, ALL (not two weeks), NA server):

 

Alabama 52.02% 54,927
Monarch 51.24% 64,591
Amagi 51.08% 57,613
Bismarck 50.99% 57,019
Tirpitz 49.23% 49,351
N Carolina 48.84% 48,873

 

Same situation. Monarch stands out, but Alabama can carry because it has real AP and can put ships down (I omitted Alabama ST which has <400 games and is played by experienced players), while Monarch has UK Almost PiercingTM. Note that anyone can purchase Alabama, so like Scharn she is owned by people of wide skill levels. Whereas to get to Monarch this early implies you have tons of free XP which implies tons of experience. Yet she is just barely ahead of Amagi even though Amagi is widely played by players of all skill levels. When Monarch deteriorates....

Here is T4 where the Orion is widely considered OP (solo, min 100 battles, ALL (not two weeks), NA server):
 

Nikolai 59.28% 47,541
Ark B 53.56% 36,213
Ishi 51.44% 29,678
Orion 51.32% 43,873
Kaiser 51.06% 36,893
Wyoming 49.52% 27,464
Myogi 48.08% 23,336

 

Orion is behind only Nik in damage, but look -- even Ishi has better carry potential, because of its speed, I expect, and the recent buffs whose effect is not shown in the long-term damage numbers. Orion's win rate numbers will fall, too, as more potatoes work their way up the line. 

The UK BBs pile up gaudy damage numbers, but they are a dramatic illustration of how it's not the amount of damage you do, but the kind and target of damage, that is more important. 
+++++++++++++

Now the question is how well WG understood the balance issue. I have no idea since the devs don't communicate well with the player base. But on the whole they have done a good job balancing most ship lines.

I haven't played them on the live server, but I did play them in test, and I totally agree with this.  In fact I didn't play them on the live server UNTIL I test drove them first.  Like most lines decide to run with my earned XP.   I won't be running any HM BB lines on the live server.  I'll stick with the KM.  Speaking of that.. I fell in love with the KM DD and just got to Maas.  gotta go play her now.  just got out of my gaede. 

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5 minutes ago, SmokinCAT said:

Breaking up the BB meta by releasing ships that are far superior to ships that have been in the game the longest is not going to change the meta, it is just breaking the questionable balance that did exist at high tiers.

Isn't breaking the balance, and changing the game play, the same thing?  If the balance is off set to one side by a large margin, and you change that..  well you see where that is going. 

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Its funny, except for T4 I see ships that are far above the older tech tree counterparts, and T4 she is only beaten by 3 premiums.

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1 minute ago, CaptGodzillaPig said:

Isn't breaking the balance, and changing the game play, the same thing?  If the balance is off set to one side by a large margin, and you change that..  well you see where that is going. 

No, because it should not cause ships that have been in the game from the beginning to be obsolete or unplayable in their roles.

 

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2 minutes ago, CaptGodzillaPig said:

Isn't breaking the balance, and changing the game play, the same thing?  If the balance is off set to one side by a large margin, and you change that..  well you see where that is going. 

Play against the high tier ships and you will realize just how broken they are, there is nothing about be hit for 20K HE salvos from long range that helps change the bow on camping meta.

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1 minute ago, SmokinCAT said:

Play against the high tier ships and you will realize just how broken they are, there is nothing about be hit for 20K HE salvos from long range that helps change the bow on camping meta.

My main ship for a long time has been GK.  I have maybe a "few" games in Yammy before that.  My first line I ran was US DD line to Fletch.  I have been head to head with the Conq in my GK just after her release and yeah she is a different breed.  Just have to adapt.

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7 minutes ago, SmokinCAT said:

No, because it should not cause ships that have been in the game from the beginning to be obsolete or unplayable in their roles.

 

This isn't the first time that this has happened.  I agree, I was totally pissed when the Sharn and Genny rolled out and made Tex unplayable.  I loved that ship.  But when I was a kid I loved playing video games on my old Atari 2600.  Times change.  Point is.  Adapt or don't.  If you want to cling to what was, you are probably going to be disappointed with the future.  A game has to improve and evolve if it is going to survive. 

Edited by CaptGodzillaPig
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4 minutes ago, CaptGodzillaPig said:

This isn't the first time that this has happened.  I agree, I was totally pissed when the Sharn and Genny rolled out and made Tex unplayable.  I loved that ship.  But when I was a kid I loved playing video games on my old Atari 2600.  Times change.  Point is.  Adapt or don't.  If you want to cling to what was, you are probably going to be disappointed with the future.  A game has to improve and evolve if it is going to survive. 

No, what should have been done was a balanced line released, not one where they need a new gimmick for every new line that comes out.

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2 minutes ago, SmokinCAT said:

No, what should have been done was a balanced line released, not one where they need a new gimmick for every new line that comes out.

Balanced in what way?  Balanced against the other BB lines?  Sure, I could go with that.  BUT,  game was/is unbalanced.  It heavily favors BB play as it is.  Why drop another BB in the middle that to just pile on?  Blow it up.  Force a change in play.  Another BB that just fell in line with the rest of the BB's wouldn't do that.  A BB that forced the other BB's to change the way they played would.  More importantly it would put a focus on another line of ship to be the equalizer.  If a scale is already unbalanced, and you just add another weight to the unbalanced side.  That isn't balance.  lol  You need a  COUNTER balance. 

Edited by CaptGodzillaPig

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47 minutes ago, SmokinCAT said:

Play against the high tier ships and you will realize just how broken they are, there is nothing about be hit for 20K HE salvos from long range that helps change the bow on camping meta.

 

I have. They are only really strong against other bbs. Anytime my t10 cruisers run into a conq/lion I lick my lips bc of all the damage I'm about to farm 

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29 minutes ago, CaptGodzillaPig said:

Balanced in what way?  Balanced against the other BB lines?  Sure, I could go with that.  BUT,  game was/is unbalanced.  It heavily favors BB play as it is.  Why drop another BB in the middle that to just pile on?  Blow it up.  Force a change in play.  Another BB that just fell in line with the rest of the BB's wouldn't do that.  A BB that forced the other BB's to change the way they played would.  More importantly it would put a focus on another line of ship to be the equalizer.  If a scale is already unbalanced, and you just add another weight to the unbalanced side.  That isn't balance.  lol  You need a  COUNTER balance. 

Except there is no counter from other Bbs to the conquerer, that is the problem, and causing someone to burn to death because they had a double fire and repaired and instantly received another multiple fire salvo is not changing anything for the better. 

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@CaptGodzillaPig Great theory.and very interesting read (Almost movie material)

There will come a day when future BB lines come into play, and RN BB's players will be complaining that the new lines are too OP, and I can understand why Yamato, GK and Monty players show their concerns, but, it is surely the way the game has to evolve to stay alive.

Buffs and Nerfs will happen in future days to balance the lines, RB BB's are new and I bet, a lot of fun, I know I will be grinding for that line of ships once I get my "invite a friend" freeTexas and free 80k FXP completed.

Edited by 13Assassins
Happy Anniversary WOWS.

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No they are not balanced. Torps only account for like 15% of damage done to battleships, vs. like 80% combined from AP/HE/fire (As per sub_octavians post about damage source). 

 

BBs really aren't that vulnerable to torps because DDs simply struggle to hunt battleships through all the aircraft/radar/enemy ships. As weaknesses go, being "countered" by a type of ship that's in turn countered by everything else in the game is a really damn good one to have.

 

UK BBs are no different in this regard, in fact they have a better quality of life, since the superior concealment allows them to keep near allies more easily than a GK or yamato that's going to get lit up in situations where a Conq can go dark.

 

Sorry but it's really delusional to call them balanced. Conq would be balanced even with the guns from the GK.

 

 

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Just now, vonluckner said:

No they are not balanced. Torps only account for like 15% of damage done to battleships, vs. like 80% combined from AP/HE/fire (As per sub_octavians post about damage source). 

 

BBs really aren't that vulnerable to torps because DDs simply struggle to hunt battleships through all the aircraft/radar/enemy ships. As weaknesses go, being "countered" by a type of ship that's in turn countered by everything else in the game is a really damn good one to have.

 

UK BBs are no different in this regard, in fact they have a better quality of life, since the superior concealment allows them to keep near allies more easily than a GK or yamato that's going to get lit up in situations where a Conq can go dark.

 

Sorry but it's really delusional to call them balanced. Conq would be balanced even with the guns from the GK.

 

 

Skewed stat.  Damage and kill secures are different.  Case in point with the HM lines massive repair.  I can run a full healthh conq down to nothing, but then it repairs and I lose the HP battle.  Shima torp walls the sucker and it is done. 

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16 hours ago, SmokinCAT said:

Its funny, except for T4 I see ships that are far above the older tech tree counterparts, and T4 she is only beaten by 3 premiums.

 

For now.... but those win rates will fall over time. 

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9 minutes ago, CaptGodzillaPig said:

Skewed stat.  Damage and kill secures are different.  Case in point with the HM lines massive repair.  I can run a full healthh conq down to nothing, but then it repairs and I lose the HP battle.  Shima torp walls the sucker and it is done. 

 

 

Good luck I'm behind two Gearings a radar cruiser and 5 float planes.

 

"B-but what if you eat crapto a perfect shims wall!!!" Isn't a real argument for UK BB balance. That's a lethal threat to any battleship. 

 

Despite that fact, DDs are currently not a serious check on BBs. The numbers aren't skewed from repairing back damage, they're skewed because DDs are underrepresented. They are countered too hard by too many things, and even in 4-5 DD per team games you can bet half will die just to one another without any outside intervention in the first minute after people jump on caps.

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14 hours ago, vonluckner said:

 

 

Good luck I'm behind two Gearings a radar cruiser and 5 float planes.

 

"B-but what if you eat crapto a perfect shims wall!!!" Isn't a real argument for UK BB balance. That's a lethal threat to any battleship. 

 

Despite that fact, DDs are currently not a serious check on BBs. The numbers aren't skewed from repairing back damage, they're skewed because DDs are underrepresented.

 

...and BBs now mount sonar and radar. Seriously stupid to put those on a BB. 

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11 minutes ago, vonluckner said:

 

 

Good luck I'm behind two Gearings a radar cruiser and 5 float planes.

 

"B-but what if you eat crapto a perfect shims wall!!!" Isn't a real argument for UK BB balance. That's a lethal threat to any battleship. 

 

Despite that fact, DDs are currently not a serious check on BBs. The numbers aren't skewed from repairing back damage, they're skewed because DDs are underrepresented. They are countered too hard by too many things, and even in 4-5 DD per team games you can bet half will die just to one another without any outside intervention in the first minute after people jump on caps.

DD's are under represented now.  And again this is all just theory and "what if",  So I am not selling any hard point here.    But for sake of argument.  Consider this.  When the KM BB line came in, there was a lot of scrambling to adjust.  If you say I am wrong in that, I will call you a liar.  This new HM line is here and there is now, again, a lot of scrambling to adjust.  I won't argue that DD's have a hard time with a lot of what is going on in game, but I played up to Conq in test, and up to Z52, and can say based on a small sample size that DD can counter.  Having both been the victim of torps and having sunk Conq with torps.  The balance is real.  Yes, you can cry your DD whine about how someone might see you or whatever.  A good DD driver can, and will, do well in T10 and I have played enough T10 live server matches to say that.  What ship that DD nukes is up to him/her. 

Edited by CaptGodzillaPig
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