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sendit2me30

This game is CRAP

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1 minute ago, Herr_Reitz said:

 

In a CV that's not necessarily correct. Quite often a carrier is the last one standing because. :fish_cute_2:

True, a good point. Kinda like how the healer really /should/ be the last to die in an MMO, a CV should be last in this game. Although there are merits to more aggressive CV positioning if you can get away with it. 

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14 minutes ago, TTK_Aegis said:

If you're always the last one standing, you're sandbagging. If you're always on the losing team, well, the only common factor in all those losses is you. 

I disagree with this.  Sometimes, being the last one standing just means that you're good at dodging incoming fire if you're in a DD or even a cruiser.

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2 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

An IJN DD is an optimal CV killer, because stealth+torpedoes.

Kagero is moderately good at CV hunting though honestly I can think of more better ones without any difficulty. Her 5.4 K detection makes for stealthy approaches and her torps are adequate.

Now for the other side.

Priority Target shows a CV captain how many players are targeting him; when that number goes down and right back up it means a DD has just switched from gunsight to torp sight and launched, so he changes course and the torps miss. Nice cheat on knowing when to dodge.

EVERY ship in the game has a detection warning, so when your CV is spotted and you see no one you know it is time to start dodging because a DD is near, Another nice cheat for anything not a DD.

Your rudder shift historically correct? Not if you're playing any ship designed by WoW. Have another cheat, unrealistic turning ability.

And when did the IJN start putting small, hovering orange triangles above it's torps? Oh, another cheat?

10 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

In a Kagero I have enjoyed a good number of CV kills, while in my CVs I have been sunk inenumerable times by IJN dds.

Then if I were you I would stick to playing DD's, because with all the advantages CV's get you must suck in them.

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12 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

This is what forums are for, viewpoints, glad to hear yours btw:)
But you know I have been playing both t8 kagero and t8 CVs quite a bit this last month or so. An IJN DD is an optimal CV killer, because stealth+torpedoes. In a Kagero I have enjoyed a good number of CV kills, while in my CVs I have been sunk inenumerable times by IJN dds. Played with patience, Kagero through to Shimekaze are deadly to carrier players if their team fails to screen properly, or if CV fails to pay enough attention to unguarded flanks. 

I have to disagree here.  IMO, high tier IJN DD's aren't optimal CV killers.  Far from it.  To me, they're the worst high tier DD's for CV killing because high tier CV's are as fast or faster than high tier IJN DD's, which means you can never catch them in a stern chase and your guns are generally too slow firing to get damage done quickly enough, if the CV has enough planes left to attack you effectively.  No, to me, the best high tier DDs for CV killing at those with good guns, and probably the USN and VMF DD's being the best.

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Just now, Crucis said:

I have to disagree here.  IMO, high tier IJN DD's aren't optimal CV killers.  Far from it.  To me, they're the worst high tier DD's for CV killing because high tier CV's are as fast or faster than high tier IJN DD's, which means you can never catch them in a stern chase and your guns are generally too slow firing to get damage done quickly enough, if the CV has enough planes left to attack you effectively.  No, to me, the best high tier DDs for CV killing at those with good guns, and probably the USN and VMF DD's being the best.

If you are chasing them in an IJN dd, you have been spotted, and have made a mistake. The whole point is to position yourself to launch your torpedoes unseen. In an IJN t8 + dd you can place your torpedo spreads in such a way as to be unavoidable. If your spread does nto sink the CV, then it is time to run, not chase, bide your time. If you want to pewpew a CV, surely a cruiser with adequate AA would be a better choice?

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9 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

In an IJN t8 + dd you can place your torpedo spreads in such a way as to be unavoidable.

I know an entire game full of IJN DD players who would disagree with this.

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Just now, Umikami said:

I know an entire game full of IJN DD players who would disagree with this.

mehh, what do they know?:Smile_hiding:

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Just now, nuttybiscuit said:

mehh, what do they know?

Well, you could always compare stats; since you think enough of yours to post them they must be important to you.

Are other DD players stats equivalent to yours?

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4 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Well, you could always compare stats; since you think enough of yours to post them they must be important to you.

Are other DD players stats equivalent to yours?

You mistake the reason why I have started to post stats, it is purely based upon two things I have encountered lately in forums, stat shaming (to pre empt, better to post my crap stats before they can be used to crappost), and the GrafZeppelin which I have spent the last week playing pretty much exclusively.

besides which, I thought we were discussing dds sinking cvs, not WR?

Spoiler

Lighten up..

 

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3 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

If you are chasing them in an IJN dd, you have been spotted, and have made a mistake. The whole point is to position yourself to launch your torpedoes unseen. In an IJN t8 + dd you can place your torpedo spreads in such a way as to be unavoidable. If your spread does nto sink the CV, then it is time to run, not chase, bide your time. If you want to pewpew a CV, surely a cruiser with adequate AA would be a better choice?

A. You're wrong in the first sentence.  First of all, CVs will usually know when you've spotted them due to all ships getting Situational Awareness, which means that any halfway smart CV player will kick it up to full speed immediately.  Secondly, in many situations, the CV will know which direction he needs to run and from what general direction an enemy DD must be coming.  Third, this is an AIRCRAFT Carrier you're hunting.  There will be AIRCRAFT coming and going from the CV.  And contrary to some people's opinions, it's not at all easy to avoid planes in a DD, unless they're spotted a very long distance from you.  Frankly, if you're the one spotting the aircraft in a DD, unless they're not really heading towards you, your chances of evading detection aren't good.  And if aircraft you spotted are heading right at you, even by sheer blind luck, the chances you can evade detection are just about zero.

When it comes to avoiding planes in a DD, it to try to approach the CV from a direction where you don't expect the planes to overfly.  And also, if at all possible, try to wait to close on the CV until you see the planes are outbound and preferably a LONG way from the carrier before you let yourself get detected or if possible detect the CV.  Note that all this is true, no matter what type of DD you're using, gunboat or torp boat.  It's also best if you know the general location of the CV due to where the planes are coming and going from, try to put an island between you and that location, if possible so that you actually don't spot the CV quite so soon.  Sometimes you can get lucky and the CV will be hiding behind the island and sitting still, and you can catch him at point blank range and unmoving.

Still, high tier IJN DD's aren't that good at carrier hunting, because high tier CV's are exceptionally difficult targets to torp.

 

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1 hour ago, sendit2me30 said:

There are just not enough words to describe how bad this is.

 

As so often - played the Kag.  There was only me left on our team and a CV + 2 DD on the enemy.  I go after the CV, a Lexington.  I avoid multiple fire bombs and a squad of torpedo bombers.   The Lexington is dodging EVERY SINGLE TORP I throw at it.  And multiple salvo's, all broad side.  The only thing that damages him are my HE shelves.  In the end I was killed by his torpedo planes. 

So what is the crappy - s&*t (s-word) utter meaning and logic of this nonsense??? A huge big monstrous carrier can dodge every torpedo and a small, tiny, super maneuverable destroyer cannot avoid them. Ha - bloody - ha!  And you see this time and again.  

Conclusion - with all the nerfs and the bufs and the tweaks and constant updates this game has finally gone down the drains... it now has only 1 purpose - to be flushed.

 

You wouldn't happen to have the replay?

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1 minute ago, Crucis said:

A. You're wrong in the first sentence.  First of all, CVs will usually know when you've spotted them due to all ships getting Situational Awareness, which means that any halfway smart CV player will kick it up to full speed immediately.  Secondly, in many situations, the CV will know which direction he needs to run and from what general direction an enemy DD must be coming.  Third, this is an AIRCRAFT Carrier you're hunting.  There will be AIRCRAFT coming and going from the CV.  And contrary to some people's opinions, it's not at all easy to avoid planes in a DD, unless they're spotted a very long distance from you.  Frankly, if you're the one spotting the aircraft in a DD, unless they're not really heading towards you, your chances of evading detection aren't good.  And if aircraft you spotted are heading right at you, even by sheer blind luck, the chances you can evade detection are just about zero.

When it comes to avoiding planes in a DD, it to try to approach the CV from a direction where you don't expect the planes to overfly.  And also, if at all possible, try to wait to close on the CV until you see the planes are outbound and preferably a LONG way from the carrier before you let yourself get detected or if possible detect the CV.  Note that all this is true, no matter what type of DD you're using, gunboat or torp boat.  It's also best if you know the general location of the CV due to where the planes are coming and going from, try to put an island between you and that location, if possible so that you actually don't spot the CV quite so soon.  Sometimes you can get lucky and the CV will be hiding behind the island and sitting still, and you can catch him at point blank range and unmoving.

Still, high tier IJN DD's aren't that good at carrier hunting, because high tier CV's are exceptionally difficult targets to torp.

 

Paragraph two is correct. Paragraph one assumes most CV players are halfway smart. They aren't. Sure you will have bad days with skilled CV player with their 19pt captains, seriously demoralizing days I understand, but how often will you see them in a Kagero? Also remember that in the later stages of a match (I assume the stage you finanlize your CV hunt), there is a good chance the CV will have run out of fighters (which are the only planes with any useful scouting ability). This makes your approach much less risky.

Tier 9 and 10 Cvs, I have zero experience with or against, but we are discussing a t8 Kagero versus a t8 carrier right?

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1 hour ago, Crucis said:

IIRC, there is a (level 3) skill that allows carriers to launch and recover planes, in spite of being on fire. So in any later tier carrier, I wouldn't assume that fire would prevent a carrier from continuing with flight operations.

I know this but the majority of the CV population doesn't run it so I take that into consideration.

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One thing I hate about people thinks they are DD players, chasing carriers.  That tactic has never been a good but to get kills.  If you fail, most of the time you will, it hurts your team so much.  Heck if you get a window to go for them do it.  But right out of the gate... good luck.

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8 minutes ago, Nachoo31 said:

One thing I hate about people thinks they are DD players, chasing carriers.

If you have devoted your whole game to CV hunting, you will be hurting your team. However, as a target of opportunity when you realize you have worked your way near the CV, you might as well go for it. Staying undetected can be tough if the CV has active squadrons going in an out. But from some of the comments here, what are you supposed to do when you finally spot the CV and see that it is heading away from you? A tail chase is far from ideal, your rate of overtake is low and may get one torp hit per salvo since the CV is stern on and probably spots your torps as soon as you launch. Do you just give up and go elsewhere?

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5 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

If you have devoted your whole game to CV hunting, you will be hurting your team. However, as a target of opportunity when you realize you have worked your way near the CV, you might as well go for it. Staying undetected can be tough if the CV has active squadrons going in an out. But from some of the comments here, what are you supposed to do when you finally spot the CV and see that it is heading away from you? A tail chase is far from ideal, your rate of overtake is low and may get one torp hit per salvo since the CV is stern on and probably spots your torps as soon as you launch. Do you just give up and go elsewhere?

Of course. A dd is an opportunist, go find better opportunities. But, do not think that chasing a Cv is necessarily bad for the team, a CV panicked about a prowling dd in their detection range, is good news for the dds team members. I'm sure many a bb player is happier to see a CV striking at shadows (the dd) than focussing on the unmissable bbs/

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12 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

I'm sure many a bb player is happier to see a CV striking at shadows (the dd) than focussing on the unmissable bbs/

But a decent CV player can probably cross-drop  and eliminate the DD when spotted. Then there is the problem of all the CVs friends in the area that will make chasing the CV down very hazardous (once spotted).

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Just now, Sabot_100 said:

But a decent CV player can probably cross-drop  and eliminate the DD when spotted. Then there is the problem of all the CVs friends in the area that will make chasing the CV down very hazardous (once spotted).

How many t8  CVs can cross drop?

Lexington can launch a maximum of 1 tier 8 torpedo bomber squadron at a time in strike configuration

Graf Zeppelin (for now) has zero torpedo bombers

Shokaku can launch 2 tier 8 torpedo bomber squadrons at a time

Enterprise can launch 2 tier 7 torpedo bomber squadrons at a time

That means only 50% of carriers can cross drop, of those only the Enterprise has a truly difficult to evade pattern.

By the time you close on an enemy CV we will be in mid to late game, and the enemy CV will no longer have full squadrons, and will no longer be able to establish a full drop pattern. (This you can check on by observing the attrition rate when he has attacked your teammates, or asking them how many they have shot down)/

This means a decent CV player probably cannot cross drop, or a decent dd player probably knows when it is safe to prosecute.

Furthermore, the most commonly played carrier on the NA server is Lexington (max of one TB squadron in the air at any one time)/ This means that in a random battle, the enemy CV even with a decent player, probably cannot cross drop.

Spoiler

I will now spend the rest of the week eating my words as I try to finish my kagero grind!

 

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2 hours ago, nuttybiscuit said:

besides which, I thought we were discussing dds sinking cvs, not WR?

we are; and the specific topic within DD's sinking CV's we were discussing was CV's being able to avoid torps, and your assertion that a DD could place torps so they couldn't be avoided. I disagreed with that and pointed out other players would also, where in you said "meh".

hence my statement that you compare stats concerning that.

2 hours ago, nuttybiscuit said:

Paragraph one assumes most CV players are halfway smart. They aren't.

Making friends and influencing people, LOL!

2 hours ago, nuttybiscuit said:

but how often will you see them in a Kagero?

as often as you play one? Carriers are much more common than before.

2 hours ago, nuttybiscuit said:

in the later stages of a match (I assume the stage you finanlize your CV hunt), there is a good chance the CV will have run out of fighters (which are the only planes with any useful scouting ability).

Utter tripe; any plane which can fly can spot, damage isn't required and neither is speed, as all aircraft outrun all ships. What nonsense.

2 hours ago, nuttybiscuit said:

This makes your approach much less risky.

Q U A C K ! What it makes is a normal approach, full of stress and tension.

1 hour ago, nuttybiscuit said:

But, do not think that chasing a Cv is necessarily bad for the team, a CV panicked about a prowling dd in their detection range, is good news for the dds team members. I'm sure many a bb player is happier to see a CV striking at shadows (the dd) than focussing on the unmissable bbs

Have to agree with this, a CV player who is chasing the DD chasing him is not harming or spotting my team.

 

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6 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Making friends and influencing people, LOL!

(...)

Have to agree with this, a CV player who is chasing the DD chasing him is not harming or spotting my team.

 

I can tell we like one another. :Smile_popcorn:

Glad we agree, a CV player whose ship is being harrassed is in serious trouble, and represents major handicap for their team (if the rest of the team cares..)

Quote

Q U A C K ! What it makes is a normal approach, full of stress and tension.

I must be doing something wrong, I find dds terribly relaxing to play.

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3 hours ago, Crucis said:

I disagree with this.  Sometimes, being the last one standing just means that you're good at dodging incoming fire if you're in a DD or even a cruiser.

"Always" is the key word in my statement. I know the OP said "often" but the point I was making was the easiest way to achieve that in a DD is to hide. I've very rarely seen a DD be the last ship standing because they were good at dodging. Far more often they simply didn't risk exposure at all till very late game, going for max range torps that most everyone dodged. Since OP also complains about torps being dodged, I'm going to guess they tend to survive due to max range stealth torping and not out of skill. 

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6 hours ago, Crucis said:

I disagree with this.  Sometimes, being the last one standing just means that you're good at dodging incoming fire if you're in a DD or even a cruiser.

I agree it could mean you're good at dodging. It could also mean that the flank you were on was won via skill and unfortunately your team's other flank folded miserably.  It could also mean you're in an IJN DD and you're good at situational awareness and aware of your detection range.  It could also mean you are capping the enemy base while the enemy has nothing but slow BB's left too far to return to defend their cap. 

 

In short, it could mean any of a numerous possible scenarios that a good DD player will often (maybe always) find themselves in and it has nothing to do with "sandbagging", being a bad or unskilled player or running and hiding.  Those kinds of comments are naive and lack any factual support.  Hyperbole at its finest.

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5 hours ago, nuttybiscuit said:

Paragraph two is correct. Paragraph one assumes most CV players are halfway smart. They aren't. Sure you will have bad days with skilled CV player with their 19pt captains, seriously demoralizing days I understand, but how often will you see them in a Kagero? Also remember that in the later stages of a match (I assume the stage you finanlize your CV hunt), there is a good chance the CV will have run out of fighters (which are the only planes with any useful scouting ability). This makes your approach much less risky.

Tier 9 and 10 Cvs, I have zero experience with or against, but we are discussing a t8 Kagero versus a t8 carrier right?

Honestly, most people will tell you that chasing a CV that's run out of planes isn't a wise thing to do if there are other more combat worthy enemies left.  It also depends on the tier and the size of the map.

If I'm in a tier 4 or 5 battle, often the maps are smaller, and the time committed to chasing down those much slower CVs on smaller maps is a lot less of an issue than for chasing down high tier CVs on much, much larger maps.

Regardless, I still maintain that CV hunting at higher tiers (heck, tier 6 and above) is more effectively done by gunboats, because while you have to slowly peck away at the CV with your pew pew guns, it's a lot more reliable than trying to do it with torpedoes, unless you catch a totally brain dead CV sitting dead still.  And even then, CV's tend to have the acceleration to move out of their static position rather quickly.  OTOH, any USN or VMF DD can rain shells down on those CVs at a rather high RoF, and delete them reasonably quickly, as long as the enemy CV can't take you out with its planes.

Also, I don't assume that these high tier CVs are being played by morons.  They may not be great players, but it would take a special sort of masochist to progress that far up a carrier line while being terrible at them. So I tend to assume that they're at least moderately competent.

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