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OgreMkV

When did stealth fire come back?

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In two different matches today, I watched shells being launched from a ship that I couldn't see. There was no smoke. One was a Kagero that was 5 km away from me. I was looking right at him. He faded away, then fired at me and was still not spotted until several seconds later when he was already turned away from me. 

I don't recall the other event. I suspect that the game thought that an island was between us. But I could see the shells firing, but couldn't see the ship. Again, no smoke. 

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A couple things come to mind, not saying that this is true, but possibilities.

 

On your Kagero, it sometimes takes a second or 2 for a ship to render in the game after being spotted. Or was it longer than that?

Possibility that you were zoomed in and therefore unable to see smoke that was in play?

 

Any replays?

Edited by Ducky_shot

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Kagero 5km away deployed smoke. That close, smoke won't render, but you should see gray circles on the water indicating it.

 

Hell at 5km Kagero isn't even stealthed normally, why the hell would you think it's stealth fire? It's smoke that you were too stupid and offended to realize was there.

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2 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

A couple things come to mind, not saying that this is true, but possibilities.

 

On your Kagero, it sometimes takes a second or 2 for a ship to render in the game after being spotted. Or was it longer than that?

Possibility that you were zoomed in and therefore unable to see smoke that was in play?

 

Any replays?


I zoom out to confirm we wasn't in smoke. 

I really hate that it's a render time issue. Yech. It was about 2-3 seconds, enough for him to turn from straight on to nearly perpendicular. 

I was much happier with stealth fire. I mean, we have stealth fire now, it's just called smoke. I'd much prefer smoke lasts for 30 seconds max... just enough to let a ship get away and detect range to reset. 

Smoke isn't that useful anyway. If you're not actually in the smoke, it doesn't help at all. You can see through the smoke to the other side, just not what is in the smoke. 

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1 minute ago, AraAragami said:

Kagero 5km away deployed smoke. That close, smoke won't render, but you should see gray circles on the water indicating it.

 

Hell at 5km Kagero isn't even stealthed normally, why the hell would you think it's stealth fire? It's smoke that you were too stupid and offended to realize was there.


Again, I know that smoke was not present. I know that some people just assume everyone is an idiot. But I don't deal with jerks like that anymore. 

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1 minute ago, OgreMkV said:


I zoom out to confirm we wasn't in smoke. 

I really hate that it's a render time issue. Yech. It was about 2-3 seconds, enough for him to turn from straight on to nearly perpendicular. 

I was much happier with stealth fire. I mean, we have stealth fire now, it's just called smoke. I'd much prefer smoke lasts for 30 seconds max... just enough to let a ship get away and detect range to reset. 

Smoke isn't that useful anyway. If you're not actually in the smoke, it doesn't help at all. You can see through the smoke to the other side, just not what is in the smoke. 

Oh, just wait if the changes being tested on 0.6.11 go live. Ships will be spotting more than enough from smoke...

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5 minutes ago, OgreMkV said:


Again, I know that smoke was not present. I know that some people just assume everyone is an idiot. But I don't deal with jerks like that anymore. 

The simple fact is: What you are describing is 100% impossible.

 

Or else it's hypebole.

 

Or it was smoke.

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Kagero cant SF from 5km, let alone any ship in the game. In this case I suspect smoke, because when zoomed in smoke doesn't fully render. In the second I suspect it was an island and the guy was lobbing shots over it. This is a very popular tactic with USN ships especially 

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1 minute ago, AraAragami said:

The simple fact is: What you are describing is 100% impossible.

 

Or else it's hypebole.

 

Or it was smoke.

Unless it was a rendering issue.

No smoke. I'll guess I'll just have to turn replays on an waste space dealing with crap like this. Nevermind. 

Thank you all for the help, except for Ara. 

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In the same matches, you saw Elvis alives and JFK being held hostage by the lizard people, too, right?  :cap_old:

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Believe it or not, there actually is a way to do open water stealth firing still in the game.  Is it an abuse of the rules or physics or what have you?  Perhaps.  Let me explain.

Say that you have a ship on a course directly or generally towards you.  Say that your ship's gun range is 15 km (for argument's sake).  If he's coming towards you, and you fired at him when he was right on the 15 km range, you'd have to lead him some because he'd actually be closer to you when the shells landed.  But what if you aim at a ship that's outside of that 15 km range?  You won't "lock on" to him, but you can still aim and fire at him.  And because he's closing on you, you can try to aim your volley to hit him right on the 15 km mark.  And because you fired outside of your max range, he wouldn't see your gun bloom until he closed to the 15 km max range.  And if you were sitting still, yes, he would then see you.  But what if you're at least fast enough to not allow that enemy ship to close on you?  You could keep firing your guns just outside of the 15 km max range, while aiming to have the shells land at your max range, since he's trying to close on you even though he can't.  It's entirely do-able.  It's just not an easy situation to set up properly.  Plus, it only works if there's no other enemy ship within range to spot you firing.

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There are two situations in which stealth firing happens without smoke/LOS being the cause.

1) it really didn't happen.

2) it did happen but there aren't screen shots or replays showing that it happened.

There is zero times stealth firing exists where replays are turned on.

This is also true of the "firing through islands" bug and the "I was spotted while in smoke without radar or hydro and nobody was within 5km of me" bug.

Edited by LordBenjamin
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6 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Believe it or not, there actually is a way to do open water stealth firing still in the game.  Is it an abuse of the rules or physics or what have you?  Perhaps.  Let me explain.

Say that you have a ship on a course directly or generally towards you.  Say that your ship's gun range is 15 km (for argument's sake).  If he's coming towards you, and you fired at him when he was right on the 15 km range, you'd have to lead him some because he'd actually be closer to you when the shells landed.  But what if you aim at a ship that's outside of that 15 km range?  You won't "lock on" to him, but you can still aim and fire at him.  And because he's closing on you, you can try to aim your volley to hit him right on the 15 km mark.  And because you fired outside of your max range, he wouldn't see your gun bloom until he closed to the 15 km max range.  And if you were sitting still, yes, he would then see you.  But what if you're at least fast enough to not allow that enemy ship to close on you?  You could keep firing your guns just outside of the 15 km max range, while aiming to have the shells land at your max range, since he's trying to close on you even though he can't.  It's entirely do-able.  It's just not an easy situation to set up properly.  Plus, it only works if there's no other enemy ship within range to spot you firing.

It's do-able, but that doesn't mean you should do it. It's a waste of time, because the dispersion gets messed up if you don't lock onto a target, and it's hard to keep the aim steady when your camera doesn't auto-track. 

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Well... sorta had some OWSF in my Kut recently...

 

Montana behind a rock, spotted by a DD off to the side somewhere; made a guesstimate about where he was, let fly, and started getting hits. I'd imagine it didn't make him very happy, or at least unnerved him, because he ran out from the rock and soon got focused down by my allies...

 

...God how I hated the Kut back when I used it for Honorable Service...

 

...a few thousand games worth of general experience later? Maybe it's not so bad after all...

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20 minutes ago, Aduial said:

It's do-able, but that doesn't mean you should do it. It's a waste of time, because the dispersion gets messed up if you don't lock onto a target, and it's hard to keep the aim steady when your camera doesn't auto-track. 

Given the requirement that no other enemy can be within spotting range, it's rather difficult to get set up.  And is largely a tactic available in later game situations when there are fewer ships.  And also given the details, it's a situation that's going to happen when someone is either trying to run you down, or just happens to be heading in your direction and you can execute a running fight.  Will the accuracy be less?  Sure, but it just might be worth it in exchange for the ability to fire without being seen.  That said, it's not something that I'd be looking to do all the time.  It's too situational.  And the situation probably won't occur all that often for you to make use of it.

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Just now, Crucis said:

Given the requirement that no other enemy can be within spotting range, it's rather difficult to get set up.  And is largely a tactic available in later game situations when there are fewer ships.  And also given the details, it's a situation that's going to happen when someone is either trying to run you down, or just happens to be heading in your direction and you can execute a running fight.  Will the accuracy be less?  Sure, but it just might be worth it in exchange for the ability to fire without being seen.  That said, it's not something that I'd be looking to do all the time.  It's too situational.  And the situation probably won't occur all that often for you to make use of it.

Yeah, exactly. Although I guess if you have very little HP left in a cruiser, this is the only thing you can do. 

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OWSF is not in game.
If you're seeing something along the lines of OWSF, there's LOS checks that are failing. Edges of islands love to cause this. A smoke puff that simply breaks LOS also can create the illusion of OWSF.

...And then in the case of Battleships, it's entirely possible for THEM to OWSF against DDs that are lit by other things by firing from outside their 15-km or so Rendering range.

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43 minutes ago, OgreMkV said:

Unless it was a rendering issue.

No smoke. I'll guess I'll just have to turn replays on an waste space dealing with crap like this. Nevermind. 

Thank you all for the help, except for Ara. 

 

Yes because demanding you provide evidence when you claim something that is completely impossible is unreasonable.

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20 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Well... sorta had some OWSF in my Kut recently...

 

Montana behind a rock, spotted by a DD off to the side somewhere; made a guesstimate about where he was, let fly, and started getting hits. I'd imagine it didn't make him very happy, or at least unnerved him, because he ran out from the rock and soon got focused down by my allies...

 

...God how I hated the Kut back when I used it for Honorable Service...

 

...a few thousand games worth of general experience later? Maybe it's not so bad after all...

Well yeah.  You don't always have to be the one hiding behind the island.  Sometimes, it's the enemy that's hiding behind the island and you're lucky enough to be in a position to be able to lob shells over the obstruction and hit the enemy.  It's always fun to be able to do that.  Even more so when you're in a BB and your target is some unsuspecting cruiser who thinks he's being cute.  And boom.... you land a major volley of shells onto him!  If you don't outright kill him, you will see him start running for his life when he realizes that his cover isn't so good after all!  :Smile_teethhappy:

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53 minutes ago, OgreMkV said:


Smoke isn't that useful anyway. If you're not actually in the smoke, it doesn't help at all. You can see through the smoke to the other side, just not what is in the smoke. 

The two factors that let you see through the smoke to the other side are; planes in air detection range and your teammate(s) is/are in different positions to have a clear los past the smoke screen.

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5 minutes ago, AirshipCanon said:

OWSF is not in game.
If you're seeing something along the lines of OWSF, there's LOS checks that are failing. Edges of islands love to cause this. A smoke puff that simply breaks LOS also can create the illusion of OWSF.

...And then in the case of Battleships, it's entirely possible for THEM to OWSF against DDs that are lit by other things by firing from outside their 15-km or so Rendering range.

Not as a general rule.  But what I describe above is completely possible.  Nothing is broken.  You're simply using the fact that ships heading towards you will travel a certain distance during the time it takes your shells to go from your ship to their ship.  And you can use this small distance to fire at them from outside your normal max range, thus staying unspottable by the  target ship.  Of course, any other enemy within your max gun range can spot you.  But if there are none within your gun range, you can get away from it.  But was mentioned above, it's a rare corner case that's very situational, but is do-able and isn't a hack.

 

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59 minutes ago, OgreMkV said:

Smoke isn't that useful anyway. If you're not actually in the smoke, it doesn't help at all. You can see through the smoke to the other side, just not what is in the smoke. 

Smoke works by breaking LoS.

If you're inside the puff, it gives 360* protection from LoS.
If you're outside the puff, it serves as a wall for LoS.

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6 minutes ago, Hurlbut said:

The two factors that let you see through the smoke to the other side are; planes in air detection range and your teammate(s) is/are in different positions to have a clear los past the smoke screen.

This happens to be a big reason why smoke screens become less useful for blocking lines of sight (as opposed to actually being IN the smoke) when there are carriers and carrier planes in play.  

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1. much as you rule it out would be smoke being deployed, and possibly not fully rendering

2. Is a rendering bug/delay

3. You can "open stealth fire", at least it seems in some DD's, if you are behind some of the smaller islands that you'd still see the like of BB superstructure on that while you can have an angle to clearly trace the shots as they launch, the game doe not render the ship as spotted. Or the low parts of large islands that, unless another ship/plane has a specific angle to spot from, the game will register even a BB as hidden still by the island.

 

I know there are instances I fire even with a DD, thinking I'll be spotted by firing, but the bloom disperses almost immediately/never forms near some of the islands. To which I remain unspotted by the target. That could be your culprit if it's not a tech issue/bug. 

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