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Cobraclutch

Ballistic update prototype - BB AP pens on DD's no more?

BB AP Pen questions  

241 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you think that removing BB AP pens from Destroyers is a good change?

    • Yes
      110
    • No
      131
  2. 2. Do you think that BB HE does enough damage to destroyers?

    • Yes
      190
    • No
      51
  3. 3. If you think removing AP pens is a bad change, how would you address AP performance vs DD's?

    • Increasing the damage of Overpens
      22
    • Decreasing BB accuracy vs Destroyers
      11
    • Decreasing AP damage but increasing module destruction via AP
      22
    • No changes, leave AP damage as is.
      100
    • Voted Yes in first question
      98
  4. 4. If you think that HE is not strong enough vs Destroyers, how would you address HE performance vs DD's?

    • Increasing HE damage vs DD's.
      20
    • Increase HE module damage
      14
    • Increase HE splash damage
      19
    • DD module's should not absorb HE shells like a black hole.
      47
    • Voted Yes in second question
      157
  5. 5. What is the best way to bacon? (obligatory bacon)

    • BLT
      55
    • Bacon wrapped wtv
      10
    • Bacon pizza
      25
    • Bacon cheese Burger
      71
    • Bacon potato soupe
      17
    • Bacon
      110

324 comments in this topic

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Hello Everyone, 

 

Some news from the 5th

 

In light of Flamu's recent video about BB AP vs Destroyers. I present you a topic on EU. 

 

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/85361-so-wg-lets-discuss-the-changes-in-the-game-and-your-plan/?page=14#comment-2031804

 

It seem's that WG'ing has reversed its stance on BB AP pens being "Fine" vs Destroyers. And that they are currently working on a Ballistic Update that may remove the ability for BB's to pen DD's in almost all situation. 

 

b. "Ballistics update prototype - that should, by the concept, remove regular BB AP pens to DDs almost completely, due to underwater ballistics and fuse settings tweaking. We want to force BBs in shell choice, because right now AP does its job too good on all targets, while it would be much better balance-wise if BBs had to load HE for soft targets for maximum efficiency."

 

How does the community feel about this potential change? If you feel strongly for or againts it. Please take the poll. 

 

If you have any idea's or topics on how to address this issue, or how not to address it. Add it to the thread. 

 

If you have any idea's for other poll questions , please share! 

 

 

*Edit: 

 

cleaned up the poll options a bit.

 

Added a question for "how would you change HE  - Modules eating HE shells"  (Thanks Ted) 

 

Added I voted Yes for HE and AP questions. 

 

*Edit.2 

 

Seems as though this change would also have a negative effect against Cruisers :( 

 

 I feel that this takes the change from Yes to no for me. I would like to see this "Reduce AP damage vs DD's" without hurting my cruiser friends. 

 

What we're doing now is testing different fuse arming settings. Unfortunately, the solution is not straightforward - we are able to reduce regular pens to DDs to, well, zero, but an issue with cruisers immediately occurs. Because of this exact mechanics, angled cruisers now often arm BB shells at overmatched plating, and these shells do regular pen damage to bow/aft. If the shells stop arming here, they will go deeper, which means more citadel hits (ouch!).

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I would still shoot AP at DD's even if it was 100% overpens, simply because switching to HE takes time, and modules have an annoying tendency to absorb HP damage from HE.

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I thought the current meta on the forum was complaining that BBs use HE too much?

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3 minutes ago, Tedster_ said:

I would still shoot AP at DD's even if it was 100% overpens, simply because switching to HE takes time, and modules have an annoying tendency to absorb HP damage.

Agreed.  And if I switch to a target that I need AP on I lose a round AP because I switched to HE.  

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I haven't been playing BB's a lot lately, but when I do I actively shoot at DD's with them.  From my experience, I rarely see "PENS".  99% of hits to DD's are "OVERPENS".  So what difference would this make, really?

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10 minutes ago, Tedster_ said:

I would still shoot AP at DD's even if it was 100% overpens, simply because switching to HE takes time, and modules have an annoying tendency to absorb HP damage from HE.

I agree especially at close range.  The only time I ever switch to HE is when I am watching telegraphed movement from a DD. Even then I ask myself "Is it even worth it?" 

 

I will add part of the comment to the poll as an HE option. "DD modules should not absorb HE damage" 

 

8 minutes ago, Lert said:

I thought the current meta on the forum was complaining that BBs use HE too much?

That RN HE is technically HE-AP ? :Smile-_tongue::Smile_hiding:

 

I also thought that a couple of month's ago  Sub_Oct stated that AP damage vs DD's from BB's was fine? 

 

Let me dig that up... Oh here we go.. I wonder what made them change their tune? 

 

June 27th - "Will you adress the issue that is excessive damage of battleship AP shells doing to destroyers, especially at high tiers?

Examples can be found in this thread and this one, too."

 

No, because this issue is mostly visible when DD is over-confident, and such behavior is dangerous on ANY class - any over-confident ship can normally be deleted with the right weapon. It is fine. I should say we noticed several discussions, so my answer is not spontaneous - things you're talking about were considered internally, and the answer is still "no".

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Also, when I look at AP pens I've had on DD's, most of them are against end-on DD's.  This means that the shell is traveling through the entire length of the DD, even if it "overpenned", it would absolutely ruin the boilers/turbines/etc it passed through on its way out, and realistically these would cause the shell to fuze anyways (though I'm not sure if this is modeled in-game).  I'm not even sure if these would be removed under any new mechanics they add.

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It's another good change imho. One ammunition type being able to absolutely annihilate any class is silly, and this comes from a BB main.

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2 minutes ago, Kerrec said:

I haven't been playing BB's a lot lately, but when I do I actively shoot at DD's with them.  From my experience, I rarely see "PENS".  99% of hits to DD's are "OVERPENS".  So what difference would this make, really?

My understanding is that pens can occur if a DD is hit on its long axis (i.e. bow on or stern on) or to a Khaba.

 

I see it as, basically, something that penalizes a DD for being overly predictable (full disclaimer which I excel at).

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I think it's a great change.  Flamu's recent video summarized why it would be a benefit.

 

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6 minutes ago, Lert said:

I thought the current meta on the forum was complaining that BBs use HE too much?

 

C'mon Lert.  I thought you were smarter than this.  They are, in addition to AP being too effective against DDs.  Just because one issue has emerged doesn't mean the other has been resolved.

 

There are plenty of instances that lays bare WG's partiality to battleships.

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3 minutes ago, Kitsunelegend said:

If WG goes through with that change for real, then the game dies.

 

Give me some reasoning here, three or four overpens is still going to lop 4-5k health off a destroyer that at most has around 15,000 and can't heal any of that back.

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This is a self correcting problem. We'll all be in nothing but Royal Navy BBs by the end of the year anyway.
WG wants to eliminate BB spam... without actually taking the steps to do so.

Edited by Mavairo
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11 minutes ago, Kerrec said:

I haven't been playing BB's a lot lately, but when I do I actively shoot at DD's with them.  From my experience, I rarely see "PENS".  99% of hits to DD's are "OVERPENS".  So what difference would this make, really?

 

6 minutes ago, Garrcia said:

My understanding is that pens can occur if a DD is hit on its long axis (i.e. bow on or stern on) or to a Khaba.

 

I see it as, basically, something that penalizes a DD for being overly predictable (full disclaimer which I excel at).

 

I will provide a little personal experience, so take it with a grain of salt. 

 

There are situations in which a BB shell can pen a slightly angled parallel target.

 

This seems to be more apparent on higher tier DD's that are "fatter" 

 

This happens sometimes in my Gearing, it is a rare occurrence though as the regular pens tend to happen when your ship is perpendicular to the target shooting.  

 

A good example of this is the shell that penned the Shimakaze in Flamu's most recent video. He slightly angled out when exposed and took a pen / overpen for 9k damage. 

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16 minutes ago, Kitsunelegend said:

If WG goes through with that change for real, then the game dies.

Question for you.

 

If this change does go through, and HE becomes much more viable towards DD's. do you think this will alleviate  some of the pressure CA's and CL's endure from BB's?

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9 minutes ago, Big_Spud said:

 

Give me some reasoning here, three or four overpens is still going to lop 4-5k health off a destroyer that at most has around 15,000 and can't heal any of that back.

 

If I manage to hit a stern on or bow on DD with a single AP round, that round is going to travel the length of that DD, thus becoming a full pen. Thats just [edited]LOGIC. If WG somehow takes that away, thats just [edited] coding to fix a problem that was NEVER a [edited]problem in the god damn first place.

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And how are single salvo destroyer deletions NOT a problem, exactly? It happens even more often that single salvo cruiser deletions, and becomes MORE likely the harder the player attempts to avoid it. You do everything right, but dispersion sends a single shell into your [edited]that knocks off half of your HP. Fair and balanced I guess.

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38 minutes ago, fourteenfour said:

did the people who created the current weapon mechanics leave?

Considering WarGaming's recent decisions, I wouldn't be surprised that this played a role.

 

Also, how would this change affect AP vs Cruisers, other Battleships, or even Carriers?

Edited by BrentD15

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What will the KM DD national flavor be if they take "eat massive AP damage" away from them?

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You know what, I'm [edited]done. I"m [edited]done with this [edited] [edited] community and these church of shamu cucks calling for [edited]nerfs left and right and riding on every [edited]single word that piece of crapsays like its the single holiest piece of turd to ever leave his god damned mouth.

 

I'm [edited]done. [edited]this god damn [edited].

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13 minutes ago, Big_Spud said:

And how are single salvo destroyer deletions NOT a problem, exactly? It happens even more often that single salvo cruiser deletions, and becomes MORE likely the harder the player attempts to avoid it. You do everything right, but dispersion sends a single shell into your [edited]that knocks off half of your HP. Fair and balanced I guess.

I feel at times that this is something only a DD player with many games under his or hers belt would understand, especially at higher tiers due to the fat destroyers in play. 

 

It is an infuriating situation.  You run a good torp volley into a BB, hit him for 2-4 torps and he only looses half his health.  He fires a desperate return volley on you. 1-2 shells hit and knock out 2-3/4's of your HP. 

 

However I have seen the flip side of the situation were an HE shell from a BB that would kill me had it been AP, just get absorbed by a module or do less damage vs an AP shell. It's situations like this that also amplify the situation by making AP the defacto king vs DD's. 

 

I have seen the lack luster HE performance as a BB captain and on the receiving end as a DD captain.. Where I find myself saying "How the hell did I survive that.. Oh right he used HE lulz" 

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2 minutes ago, Kitsunelegend said:

You know what, I'm [edited]done. I"m [edited]done with this [edited] [edited] community and these church of shamu cucks calling for [edited]nerfs left and right and riding on every [edited]single word that piece of crapsays like its the single holiest piece of turd to ever leave his god damned mouth.

 

I'm [edited]done. [edited]this god damn [edited].

 

Typical...

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8 minutes ago, Cobraclutch said:

 

It is an infuriating situation.  You run a good torp volley into a BB, hit him for 2-4 torps and he only looses half his health.  He fires a desperate return volley on you. 1-2 shells hit and knock out 2-3/4's of your HP. 

 

I play BB's and DD's and I don't have that experience, from either ships.  Since the damage values are consistant and can be calculated, please give me an example of DD being hit by 1 or 2 BB shells for 1/2-3/4 hp damage.

What DD?

What BB?

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