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Ducky_shot

Smoke and spotting mechanics in the PTS

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So the spotting in smoke mechanic on PTS is calculated so that whether you are in smoke or behind it your detection will go to your smoke detection range.

 

I had seen some videos where this was shown and went and did some testing in PTS in a training room to test a couple things.

 

So it looks like if there is no one in your normal spotting range but someone whose only obstacle is smoke between you, you will be spotted at your smoke firing detection range whether you are firing from smoke or open water. The other ship can be sitting in a smoke screen and if you fire from within your smoke fire detection range you will be spotted by the ship in smoke.

 

Yeah, I know there will be people that have an iissue with that and making it harder to sneak up on ships in smoke and fire at them etc.... But here's where it gets interesting: If there is an island and smoke between you and that ship but it is still within your smoke fire detection range you will not be spotted. AFAIK, this is the first time in this game where detection  rules are different between smoke and islands. The speculation I had heard prior to this was that it was a coding issue and the game treated islands and smoke clouds the same when it came to LOS and detection mechanics, which is why radar, hydro and proximity spotting all work through islands. They have to see into smoke and if the game thinks islands are the same as smoke, they see through islands too.

 

The thought was that there was something keeping WG from changing that, either coding issues, server usage for extra calculations or just stubborness/laziness. Well they have it split for smoke firing on the PTS, so did they revamp the system to allow them to do that? Are we possibly seeing the first steps towards a revamp of spotting and detection regarding islands and radar and hydro?

 

Anyways, just some observations I had...

Edited by Ducky_shot

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Let me ask you this..the new revised setting affect ONLY Guns right NOT Torpedoes right.?  How about if AA is fired does it affect your detection just like shooting guns?    Inquiring minds want to know - Thanks for your time. 

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Here's a quick vid showing gun spotting mechanics. Would have posted it originally but it was still uploading

Torps never affect spotting

AA on the other hand will stay the same. You are not able to be spotted from smoke by airplanes, and your spotting range after firing aa guns stays the same as before.

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Thanks for verifying this behavior on the PTS. The spotting logic for ships now appears to be:

  1. Are you within someone's prox spotting range? This includes active radar and hydro, because those are just buffs to the prox spotting range.
    • YES: You are spotted
    • NO: Go to 2
  2. Block off LOS due to ISLANDS ONLY. Now, are you within "smoke concealment" range of anybody?
    • YES: You are spotted if you've fired in the last 20 seconds
    • NO: Go to 3
  3. Further block off LOS due to SMOKE. "Inside" vs. "Behind" doesn't matter. Are you within "regular" spotting range of anybody?
    • YES: You are spotted
    • NO: You are unspotted

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I figured you would have some better insight into the logic @Edgecase and was hoping you would share your thoughts. So basically of that is how it is, then we are nowhere closer to having islands block radar and hydro.

 

Which is a shame because if WG wants to improve matches and eliminate camping, getting rid of spotting through islands would be huge. Then a cruiser couldn't sit safe behind an island while spotting for long range cruisers and bbs. It would be much more interesting if the cruiser had to be exposed to expose the dd. It would make for much better game play, I think. Then a team would has 2 choices, stay camping and lose a cap because you can't spot or stick your neck out and try to destroy what's capping. Then it's a 50/50 proposition on who is victorious as both sides would be in the open

Edited by Ducky_shot

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2 hours ago, Ducky_shot said:

Here's a quick vid showing gun spotting mechanics. Would have posted it originally but it was still uploading

Torps never affect spotting

AA on the other hand will stay the same. You are not able to be spotted from smoke by airplanes, and your spotting range after firing aa guns stays the same as before.

This right here shows Wargamings total incompetence as per usual in game balance. Give me one good reason why a ship sitting inside of smoke, should ever be able to see and fire at a ship that it cannot see. This is basically worse than it was before. So now what this means is, as a BB, you are punished for trying to fire at and hit ships that are camping in smoke. Meanwhile, they can still free fire at you with impunity, and not only that, have the ability to detect ships while they themselves sit in smoke. 

 

Explain this logic.

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What?  The only way a ship in smoke can do it's own spotting is if it:

1) uses a Radar consumable

2) used a Hydro consumable

3) launches a plane

4) the enemy ship is within 2 or 3 km (depending on modules equipped)

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3 minutes ago, Kerrec said:

What?  The only way a ship in smoke can do it's own spotting is if it:

1) uses a Radar consumable

2) used a Hydro consumable

3) launches a plane

4) the enemy ship is within 2 or 3 km (depending on modules equipped)

No, ships will now have "smoke detection range" if this goes live. You need none of those things. There is a reason why i also quoted that video, which clearly shows this mechanic. The other hilarious part about this is, BBs wont even be able to sit behind smoke (ya know, like how it was actually used in WW2) and be undetected because of this new mechanic. 

Edited by Braize

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You are seriously misunderstanding the mechanics.

Right now, a ship in smoke can fire their guns as much as they want, and nothing will spot them except for radar, hydro or an ally ship within 2-3km.

On PTS, it has been changed, so different ships  will have different spotting ranges (they will be spotted, not be doing the spotting) when they fire their guns.

In other words, a BB sitting in smoke that shoots his main guns will become spotted by every ship within 13 km( an example, go see the numbers for yourself), even while he's in smoke.

If the BB sits in smoke and doesn't shoot his guns, smoke works the same as it does today.

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Is this guy seriously the only one misunderstanding here? In case I wasn't that clear, let me explain what I am talking about. 

 

Cruiser pops smoke, he is sitting in it. 

BB is outside of smoke, lets say 9km away. The BB fires his guns for whatever reason. 

The BB gets detected by the Cruiser that is sitting inside of his smoke. And not only that, can fire freely at the BB and not be detected himself. 

Earlier you said that a ship sitting in smoke cannot do it's own spotting. Yes, now it can do exactly that. Make sense? Please watch that video, it clearly shows this. 

Edited by Braize

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5 minutes ago, Braize said:

Is this guy seriously the only one misunderstanding here? In case I wasn't that clear, let me explain what I am talking about. 

 

Cruiser pops smoke, he is sitting in it. 

BB is outside of smoke, lets say 9km away. The BB fires his guns for whatever reason. 

The BB gets detected by the Cruiser that is sitting inside of his smoke. And not only that, can fire freely at the BB and not be detected himself. 

Earlier you said that a ship sitting in smoke cannot do it's own spotting. Yes, now it can do exactly that. Make sense? Please watch that video, it clearly shows this. 

Guess I should have watched the video before opening my yap. 

yeah, that is not how I understood the mechanics were supposed to work.

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12 minutes ago, Kerrec said:

You are seriously misunderstanding the mechanics.

Right now, a ship in smoke can fire their guns as much as they want, and nothing will spot them except for radar, hydro or an ally ship within 2-3km.

On PTS, it has been changed, so different ships  will have different spotting ranges (they will be spotted, not be doing the spotting) when they fire their guns.

In other words, a BB sitting in smoke that shoots his main guns will become spotted by every ship within 13 km( an example, go see the numbers for yourself), even while he's in smoke.

If the BB sits in smoke and doesn't shoot his guns, smoke works the same as it does today.

 

With this change, if you fire from smoke you will now have an assured detection range. 

 

So lets say you are firing in an Edinburgh from smoke. And there is a DD 5km from you. You will now get spotted within the smoke with these new changes. Regardless of Hydro or Radar. 

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Just now, Cobraclutch said:

 

With this change, if you fire from smoke you will now have an assured detection range. 

 

So lets say you are firing in an Edinburgh from smoke. And there is a DD 5km from you. You will now get spotted within the smoke with these new changes. Regardless of Hydro or Radar. 

Yeah, that's exactly what I said.  But that is not what @BLAIZE is saying.  Go watch the video.

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If you need a "realism-ish" intuition about the new mechanic, just pretend you can now see muzzle flash through smoke, depending on how big the flash is. You can see the flash inside smoke, you can see flashes outside the smoke from within it, and you can see flashes through the smoke from opposite sides of it.

Edited by Edgecase

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1 minute ago, Edgecase said:

If you need a "realism-ish" intuition about the new mechanic, just pretend you can now see muzzle flash through smoke, depending on how big the flash is. You can see the flash inside smoke, you can see flashes outside the smoke from within it, and you can see flashes through the smoke from opposite sides of it.

Or you don't need to see any flashes, and your radar just tracks / Fires at the target with no visual contact :P 

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40 minutes ago, Braize said:

Is this guy seriously the only one misunderstanding here? In case I wasn't that clear, let me explain what I am talking about. 

 

Cruiser pops smoke, he is sitting in it. 

BB is outside of smoke, lets say 9km away. The BB fires his guns for whatever reason. 

The BB gets detected by the Cruiser that is sitting inside of his smoke. And not only that, can fire freely at the BB and not be detected himself. 

Earlier you said that a ship sitting in smoke cannot do it's own spotting. Yes, now it can do exactly that. Make sense? Please watch that video, it clearly shows this. 

 

33 minutes ago, Kerrec said:

Guess I should have watched the video before opening my yap. 

yeah, that is not how I understood the mechanics were supposed to work.

 

I'm hoping this is just a bug they'll iron out in PTS... that is, after all, what it's for. 

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In all honesty, I have no problem with why they implemented this. They knew that if smoke firing detection was only valid within smoke, people would just get good at camping behind it. But this is the byproduct.of those logic calculations. I don't know if there is an easy way not to have it this way, but here's the thing: A bigger ship is going to likely be spotted in most matches by something else besides a ship sitting in smoke in his smoke firing detection ranges. Smaller ships such as a dd creeping up on a cruiser will still be able to surprise them. i'm curious to see what happens on official 0.6.11 release.

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Well and this is the reason for the BB smoke detection range increase. However there is a problem with this new mechanic, ships are now able to sit in smoke, yet be able to detect other ships. This is just simply broken. Other thing to note, and yes I know realism be damned this is a game, but smoke SCREENS were really used. Currently, ships can sit behind smoke and remain hidden, which is what the mechanic should be able to do. However this will now also detect ships behind smoke as well, and they will be detected by a ship that is sitting in smoke. 

 

This is a buff to smoke, and a huge nerf to battleships. Yes I am very anti-any type of smoke firing, personally i think that all ships in smoke should have to play by cyclone rules. Meaning you only see what you see. Either way, this new feature has to be an oversight. I find it very hard to believe that this is intentional. Otherwise that one DD sitting forward in smoke is going to be able to detect an entire enemy team, and that is just not right. 

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10 hours ago, Braize said:

This right here shows Wargamings total incompetence as per usual in game balance. Give me one good reason why a ship sitting inside of smoke, should ever be able to see and fire at a ship that it cannot see. This is basically worse than it was before. So now what this means is, as a BB, you are punished for trying to fire at and hit ships that are camping in smoke. Meanwhile, they can still free fire at you with impunity, and not only that, have the ability to detect ships while they themselves sit in smoke. 

 

I don't think it's as bad as it sounds.  This is primarily an issue between the smoke spot range difference between the two ships..and even then, the primary issue only occurs if the ship outside fires its guns.  If the outside ship is already spotted, then the fact the ship inside can spot is moot.  If the ship outside the smoke is not spotted, but would otherwise be spotted (as currently modeled) on firing, the issue is still moot.  So the main issue is when the ship outside fires when the only ship that can spot the firing ship is in the smoke.  Furthermore, if its just a battle between those two ships, then the one outside simply goes silent until within the smoke spot difference of the smoke'd target, and then any return fire from the smoke target will result in the smoke'd target being spotted.

 

So, it comes down to a ship shooting from outside smoke that is not otherwise spotted (by anyone else) upon shooting.  And for the ship inside to take advantage of this situation by firing main guns, the range between that ship and the ship firing must be outside its smoke detect range (and no other ships are closer that could otherwise spot).

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