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foehammer273

IJN DDs are a Joke

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I have been playing since closed beta testing, and all through that time until a few months ago, IJN DDs were pathetic at normal game play.  The only bonus they had was torps and a relatively good concealment. Heaven forbid I try to get into any type of gunnery duel with any other ship that wasn't a IJN DD.  It was, and is, painful.   I stress again: IJN DDs were bearable to play, but just.  I have played every IJN DD and have both the Shimakaze and the Akizuki (top tiers in each of their lines).  A few months ago, I am guessing the BB players (of which I am one, with a Scharn, Bismark, Fuso, Queen Elizabeth and Yamato) bitched and moaned enough about DDs and the wizards at Wargaming came up with removing stealth firing and the addition of radar.  But not radar for all vessels, just those of specific nations and ship classes.    These two moves have rendered DDs, and especially IJN DDs, the worse ships to play, bar none. 

Take the Akizuki as an example: she is slow (slowest DD in the game, I think), turns poorly and only has 4 torp tubes.  But her guns, though small, can deal some damage.  Without the ability to stealth fire or hide in smoke because of radar, this ship is now absolute garbage.  I used to have fun in her, but with radar there is no hiding and she can't speed away or dodge incoming shells.  IJN are unequivocally abysmal to play, especially if you compare their gameplay before the last two major nerfs to now.

I love this game.  I pay to play and buy some good premium ships and some bad, I buy premium accounts and gold regularly, but Wargamming, you have made a big mistake in neutering the DDs in general and the IJN DD specifically.

You know what would have been a better fix?  Reduce the shell damage DDs can do to BBs.  Period.  As it stands, I can receive 3,000 damage from a single DD salvo when I am in my Yamato.  That is f*cking ridiculous.  You should return the DDs to their former "glory" with regards to stealth and radar and just 1/2 or 1/4 the shell damage output against heavily armed ships like BBs.  That would be a far better method of balancing than what you have done. 

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I haven't gotten too far on Japanese DDs (mainly because their guns suck and that's frustrating on its own). But when it comes down to it, at least in my American DDs, I'd wait til a BB was distracted firing at someone else then open up. At that point they are too busy going for the fat mosquitoes to go for the tiny gnat.

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I can't speak for higher than tier 7, because that's where I am at the moment (but only 10K xp away from tier 8).

So far, I have enjoyed the guns and I use them often (maybe sometimes more than I should), and I do win against Russian and US DDs. I feel like the IJN guns do more dmg per salvo sometimes, and for that reason, and concealment, I can get the first dmg on the enemy.

All of this being said, if I run into a good playing in one of the other nations' DDs, I tend to convert my DD into a submarine.

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yeah they not be the best but they still got good detection range well the kagero on up, ughh hate the akatsuki range even if it has a crapton of torps, and the akitsuki has cool guns. The only one I liked so far was the mutsuki and the premium HSF harekaze which is just a kagero with gun options.

I just took a break and tried Russian stalinlinum cannons

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Translation: "I am unable or unwilling to adapt to changes in the game, change the game to suit me, instead."

 

I have no issues playing an IJN DD, however, I also learn and adapt. Perhaps that's why.

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I don't think the Russian ships past tier 4 are DDs. They're light cruisers.

 

I get tired of all the nerfs. But you can still do well with them. There is a definite bias against them with the devs though

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Can't please everyone. BB drivers complain about the DD's so they nerf the DD's Now the DD drivers are complaining about the BB's so i guess they will go back and nerf them. Never ending battle to please the gamers, who all have different opinions, styles, and ways to play. Not easy.

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No,  DDs are not the joke, the joke is what has been done to them because BB drivers refuse to stop sailing in a straight line, refuse to stop hugging islands, refuse to alter course when a large smoke cloud appears on the horizon, and refuse to accept the fact that other people are not just in the game to serve as targets.

Edited by Doombeagle
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There is a competitive IJN DD, you just gotta pay for it. The Harekaze. :cap_happy:

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Uh huh, that's exactly why I just did 97k damage, 90 of it to BB's, 60 of it directly off 4 torpedo hits 30 off a Bismark that apparently had repair down and flooded from a stray torp hit aimed at a DD, in a Kagero.

 

Cruisers were the main impetus behind the stealth fire changes because yes, USN DD's had the ability but several cruisers were launching volleys undetected setting everything ablaze. The idea was right, but they needed to reduce the bloom time of DD's and even some/all cruisers. Cause even a couple BB's appeared to have a range to stealth fire with their spotter up. Radar, slightly different issue, that was more cruisers unable to hunt DD's, because they were too afraid to get close because BB's wouldn't move to maybe soak damage or draw fire, they get deleted by BB's and can't spot and kill DD's, part of that also being because at a time, firing AA in a smoke cloud gave your position away, but that was removed meaning what few CV's there were could not spot a DD fool enough to leave his AA on, let alone cruisers and BB's in the smoke. I think they need to dial down the range a bit, or make it LoS based to not work through islands, but otherwise not unreasonable.

 

But if your looking to use guns on an IJN DD, honestly, your doing it wrong. They have some of the best detection ranges and basically all stealth torp for a reason. These are stealth scouts and BB hunters, in a FPS game, they are meant to be like snipers, high damage, meant to go unseen, usually screwed once they are. USN and RU, those are the more "run and gun lines", really more the counter to IJN DD's, German, I'd have to say the class that gets the LMG and explosives. Most cases, you should spot that USN DD or any other nation first, and GTFO dodge, maybe launch some torps at it while you do. Not to mention if I recall correctly, most/all the USN DD's use single barrel turrets, and I believe similar for most RU DD as well. Mid tiers may be lacking a bit but typically IJN seems to have most of it's firepower near the stern, taking Kagero as an example, it has 2x2 back there. to match, I know that while they have superior fire rate, USN ship needs to go broadside to match single shot salvo. If they have to fire guns, IJN seems better geared to run and shoot, not duke it out. DD's need tweaks, namely that gun bloom time one, but IJN DD's played right and well, they are no joke.

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2 hours ago, foehammer273 said:

 A few months ago, I am guessing the BB players (of which I am one, with a Scharn, Bismark, Fuso, Queen Elizabeth and Yamato) bitched and moaned enough about DDs

Perusing the front page of 'general':

Quote

Who have you seen in game

1

2

3

4

70

By Sinboto, February 14, 2016

1,740 replies

62,620 views

 

Elegant_Winter

6 minutes ago

 

CV's must be remove from the game

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Apparently CV rework has been pushed back to 2018 (source is very 'sketchy' so take a grain of salt)

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8 minutes ago

 

IJN DDs are a Joke

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Estimated_Prophet

45 minutes ago

Of these 16 non-sticky topics,

1.

2.

3.

4.

are complaints *from* DD players/from a DD point of view, AGAINST BB's.

Out of those 16, only 1:

1.

Is a complaint *about* BB's, and it makes 0 reference to other classes and at best can be contrued as a BB player complaining about comparative strength between BB's, not the power of other classes in relation.

At this point, it needs to stop being said that, "BB players complain to no end." DD players have LONG since taken that mantle as the resident, "Complain about everything/every change" Class.

 

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27 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:
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Uh huh, that's exactly why I just did 97k damage, 90 of it to BB's, 60 of it directly off 4 torpedo hits 30 off a Bismark that apparently had repair down and flooded from a stray torp hit aimed at a DD, in a Kagero.

 

Cruisers were the main impetus behind the stealth fire changes because yes, USN DD's had the ability but several cruisers were launching volleys undetected setting everything ablaze. The idea was right, but they needed to reduce the bloom time of DD's and even some/all cruisers. Cause even a couple BB's appeared to have a range to stealth fire with their spotter up. Radar, slightly different issue, that was more cruisers unable to hunt DD's, because they were too afraid to get close because BB's wouldn't move to maybe soak damage or draw fire, they get deleted by BB's and can't spot and kill DD's, part of that also being because at a time, firing AA in a smoke cloud gave your position away, but that was removed meaning what few CV's there were could not spot a DD fool enough to leave his AA on, let alone cruisers and BB's in the smoke. I think they need to dial down the range a bit, or make it LoS based to not work through islands, but otherwise not unreasonable.

 

But if your looking to use guns on an IJN DD, honestly, your doing it wrong. They have some of the best detection ranges and basically all stealth torp for a reason. These are stealth scouts and BB hunters, in a FPS game, they are meant to be like snipers, high damage, meant to go unseen, usually screwed once they are. USN and RU, those are the more "run and gun lines", really more the counter to IJN DD's, German, I'd have to say the class that gets the LMG and explosives. Most cases, you should spot that USN DD or any other nation first, and GTFO dodge, maybe launch some torps at it while you do. Not to mention if I recall correctly, most/all the USN DD's use single barrel turrets, and I believe similar for most RU DD as well. Mid tiers may be lacking a bit but typically IJN seems to have most of it's firepower near the stern, taking Kagero as an example, it has 2x2 back there. to match, I know that while they have superior fire rate, USN ship needs to go broadside to match single shot salvo. If they have to fire guns, IJN seems better geared to run and shoot, not duke it out. DD's need tweaks, namely that gun bloom time one, but IJN DD's played right and well, they are no joke.

 

Main issue is high tiers, T8 & up specifically. T7's affected to a degree. Having played all IJN DDs to T10, the Akizuki, and USN DDs to T9, I personally think USN DDs are a good enough torpboat. Sometimes they're even better than IJN DDs due to the lower torpedo detection ranges. This is on top of their already DD shredding guns & longest lasting smoke in the game.

Sure IJN DDs can have the worst guns, but they sure as hell don't gain enough in torpedo capabilities to make up for it. Only the Shimakaze & Akizuki has a semblance of uniqueness to it, Shiratsuyu used to but now its sold off into the junk heap like the rest. USN DDs like the Fletcher can quadruple dip in great guns, torpedoes, smoke, & DFAA if one so chooses. Whereas the IJN DD has to trade smoke for TRB & that's only on select ships. That's contending with having the longest torp detection in the game.

A high tier USN DD can also get those high damage games against BBs, but they can also dominate caps while providing the best smoke for the team. Something IJN DDs have trouble with. If you're T9 & up, DFAA goes in your speed boost slot. So you can laugh at CVs who try to drop on you while a IJN DD is absolutely screwed.

The Harekaze is what an IJN DD should be like IMO. Too bad it's completely fictional & you gotta pay for it.

Edit: I should mention Benson has to give up more than the next 2 ships for DFAA in C hull and Mahan can't mount DFAA at all. But but they both still retain everything else I've mentioned. Heck a Mahan can stealth torp.

Edited by GoldPile
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1 hour ago, GoldPile said:

There is a competitive IJN DD, you just gotta pay for it. The Harekaze. :cap_happy:

Well the 100mm guns are competitive, but the ship as a whole isn't that competitive.

In fact, it's somewhat of a downgrade compared to Kagero, thanks to how incomplete it is.

127mm/54 Midway guns with bugged HP pool
Stock Kagero torps that also take longer to reload
Stock Kagero HP pool, which is already low enough
Bugged Kagero 9.4km firing range.
Stock Kagero rudder shift, which I also believe is a bug

 

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Got to the Mutsuki and Minekaze and decided that I'd had enough.  Just a depressing line of ships to play.

 

I'd sell the Shinonome if it weren't a "only get it once" ship.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Kuckoo

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29 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

Well the 100mm guns are competitive, but the ship as a whole isn't that competitive.

In fact, it's somewhat of a downgrade compared to Kagero, thanks to how incomplete it is.

127mm/54 Midway guns with bugged HP pool
Stock Kagero torps that also take longer to reload
Stock Kagero HP pool, which is already low enough
Bugged Kagero 9.4km firing range.
Stock Kagero rudder shift, which I also believe is a bug

 

I do wish they would fix those 127mm guns, they get knocked out if someone sneezes at them. God forbid if a CV bombs them. She might have the lowest HP pool but she makes up that with 2 game changing features, best detection possible in her MM range at 5.4km & some actual good guns. No other DD besides the Kagero can match her concealment range.

If your Harekaze gets caught with a Kagero, you can simply gun them down whereas the poor Kagero with typical IJN DD guns wishes they had better guns. The minor reload nerf is an acceptable trade-off for competitive guns. Hell the Harekaze is competing with my Benson in terms of stats & is a joy to play. Every other IJN DD lags behind all my USN DDs at T7+. Her competitiveness comes with her flexibility and excelling in the areas that matter. Her HP tradeoff is a minor considering what she gets out of it, mainly the guns. I can literally gunboat with the lowest HP DD in tier, of course I also run SE.

To clarify I use 100mm guns without IFHE.

Edited by GoldPile

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The torpedo focused IJN DDs need their old slow firing, slow turning, and hard hitting guns with high fire starting % back. That way they can still contribute fire damage against ships if their torpedoes fail, or they can be used to start fires before or after DCP is used. The current IJN DDs have terrible guns so their play style is very one-dimensional and boring since torpedoes are their only competitive weapon.

 

Make the guns viable alternatives to dealing damage to CAs and BBs, but a liability against DDs if one is caught off guard. I think this would liven up the IJN DD gameplay a bit because the "put all your eggs in one basket" playstyle that IJN DDs have right now is so mind numbingly boring and unreliable. This is why I think the Akizuki is one of the few viable IJN DDs left. She doesn't rely solely on one weapon to contribute to a fight.

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43 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:
Spoiler

Perusing the front page of 'general':

Of these 16 non-sticky topics,

1.

2.

3.

4.

are complaints *from* DD players/from a DD point of view, AGAINST BB's.

Out of those 16, only 1:

1.

Is a complaint *about* BB's, and it makes 0 reference to other classes and at best can be contrued as a BB player complaining about comparative strength between BB's, not the power of other classes in relation.

At this point, it needs to stop being said that, "BB players complain to no end." DD players have LONG since taken that mantle as the resident, "Complain about everything/every change" Class.

 

If you could spoiler your quote it would be nice, it's making it hard to scroll down.

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10 minutes ago, GoldPile said:

I do wish they would fix those 127mm guns, they get knocked out if someone sneezes at them. God forbid if a CV bombs them. She might have the lowest HP pool but she makes up that with 2 game changing features, best detection possible in her MM range at 5.4km & some actual good guns. No other DD besides the Kagero can match her concealment range.

If your Harekaze gets caught with a Kagero, you can simply gun them down whereas the poor Kagero with typical IJN DD guns wishes they had better guns. The minor reload nerf is an acceptable trade-off for competitive guns. Hell the Harekaze is competing with my Benson in terms of stats & is a joy to play. Every other IJN DD lags behind all my USN DDs at T7+. Her competitiveness comes with her flexibility and excelling in the areas that matter.

To clarify I use 100mm guns without IFHE.

Yes, Harekaze is a 'fun' ship, but I don't think it is all that competitive, especially if you do not have a 19pt to throw into it.

I would rather the ship be fun and uncompetitive than boring and OP.

 

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11 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

Yes, Harekaze is a 'fun' ship, but I don't think it is all that competitive, especially if you do not have a 19pt to throw into it.

I would rather the ship be fun and uncompetitive than boring and OP.

I'm not sure if we have the same parameters for a competitive DD, can you tell me yours? At least in context of the Harekaze. I find that she excels at concealment, which lets you troll every other DD. Her guns can also shred other DDs up close, pairing up well with her concealment. I also find her torps to be good enough. Basically she can do everything a Kagero can, but a Kagero can't do everything a Harekaze can. Sure she's squishier, but I usually don't find that to be a huge glaring problem. She's also .5 knots faster if it means anything.

Edited by GoldPile

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19 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

Yes, Harekaze is a 'fun' ship, but I don't think it is all that competitive, especially if you do not have a 19pt to throw into it.

I would rather the ship be fun and uncompetitive than boring and OP.

 

She is an IJN Kagero with USN turrets and turret rotation. What's not to like?

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22 minutes ago, GoldPile said:

I'm not sure if we have the same parameters for a competitive DD, can you tell me yours? At least in context of the Harekaze.

Harekaze:

  • 100mm guns are excellent, but HP is poor, so if the reds are good at shooting, they will win
  • 9.4km stock range is unusable, outside of brawling with red DDs. This necessitates spending points in AFT to get more use out of the guns without smoke.
  • However, your HP is awful for brawling, so you have to land some good AP shots in first.
  • Type90 torps are utter garbage and, in fact, are not much better than the Tier 6 Type8 torps they replaced. Not only that, but you get a longer reload than Kagero's Type90 torps
  • In fact, the torp reload speed is extremely bad for the torps you get, that Akatsuki will out DPM your torps
  • Lack of speed, although this is a problem with most IJN DDs, means less flexibility in covering the map

All in all, very few things it can hunt, but it's okay at defending itself, where as a Kagero cannot even defend itself.
The one spot Kagero is good in, are the torps... they're deadly if they hit, but the reload is also awful on them

Z-23: Awful gun DPM, but the torps reload quickly
Ognevoi: Awful gun DPM, but the torps reload quick for a quintuple mount
Lo Yang: WG buffed it too much, it's hydro is OP for the tier
Benson: Awful torp performance, but it is well balanced for the tier and highly competitive
Akizuki: Still a strong ship versus DDs as it can brutalize almost anything with sheer gun DPM and HP pool.
Kiev: Best DD to chase around other DDs with, so long as there are no cruisers that are covering the red DDs.

So, if you want a competitive T8 DD, my pick would be Lo Yang, Benson, Akizuki or Kiev.

2 minutes ago, Destroyer_Suzukaze said:

She is an IJN Kagero with USN turrets and turret rotation. What's not to like?


I'm not saying Harekaze is not fun, I am just saying that it's not a competitive ship.

For more definitive proof, just look at how many people can score massive damage numbers in the T8 DDs.

Edited by MrDeaf

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I have no problem with IJN DDs, but I'm also weird and did fairly well with the Mutsuki and a lot of the trouble ships people complain about. I don't feel like radar has rendered IJN DDs irrelevant, if anything it has made me much more cautious and mindful of my surroundings. Now I go by radar range other than my own detection range, and I have taken to either avoiding sticky situations, or when I see one developing I withdraw and try a different direction or find other targets until a more favorable opening presents itself. A bit of a disclaimer though, I don't really go by stats or numbers; I go by how much fun I have in a particular ship and how willing I am to jump back into it after a loss and while I do have frustrating matches, I still love to play the hell out of my IJN DDs.

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14 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:


I'm not saying Harekaze is not fun, I am just saying that it's not a competitive ship.

For more definitive proof, just look at how many people can score massive damage numbers in the T8 DDs.

She holds her own. She does more damage than the Lo Yang or Bensen. She wins more games than the Kiev or Ognevoi.  She's a well rounded ship. 

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26 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

Harekaze:

  • 100mm guns are excellent, but HP is poor, so if the reds are good at shooting, they will win
  • 9.4km stock range is unusable, outside of brawling with red DDs. This necessitates spending points in AFT to get more use out of the guns without smoke.
  • However, your HP is awful for brawling, so you have to land some good AP shots in first.
  • Type90 torps are utter garbage and, in fact, are not much better than the Tier 6 Type8 torps they replaced. Not only that, but you get a longer reload than Kagero's Type90 torps
  • In fact, the torp reload speed is extremely bad for the torps you get, that Akatsuki will out DPM your torps
  • Lack of speed, although this is a problem with most IJN DDs, means less flexibility in covering the map

All in all, very few things it can hunt, but it's okay at defending itself, where as a Kagero cannot even defend itself.
The one spot Kagero is good in, are the torps... they're deadly if they hit, but the reload is also awful on them

Z-23: Awful gun DPM, but the torps reload quickly
Ognevoi: Awful gun DPM, but the torps reload quick for a quintuple mount
Lo Yang: WG buffed it too much, it's hydro is OP for the tier
Benson: Awful torp performance, but it is well balanced for the tier and highly competitive
Akizuki: Still a strong ship versus DDs as it can brutalize almost anything with sheer gun DPM and HP pool.
Kiev: Best DD to chase around other DDs with, so long as there are no cruisers that are covering the red DDs.

So, if you want a competitive T8 DD, my pick would be Lo Yang, Benson, Akizuki or Kiev.

 

Good points & I agree with everything plus your list of standard competitive ships, but I think you're discounting Harekaze's concealment capabilities a bit too much. In fact, I've adjusted my playing solely to take advantage of her concealment & guns. I tend to play her as the forward fleet spotter or cap bully. Knowing that nothing will out spot you grants you some tactical flexibility I wouldn't risk as much in a Benson.

You can make DDs leave cap without firing a single shot, that's why I like to combine fleet spotting & cap bullying into one. A concealment gap of .4km is pretty significant, it's also funny when I occasionally chase DDs to keep them spotted. :Smile_teethhappy:

I want to get her into a brawl, her AP 's best up close & their effectiveness drops off with distance. That's why I save my smoke if I'm going to get in a brawl, because I lay smoke & disappear like a ninja. Only to reappear after the detection circle goes back to normal & I exit smoke to spot you again if you're still around & not smoked. Negates the risk of getting torpedoed in smoke too. HP is a problem that's why you wanna melt them faster & get the hell outta there.

She's also more nimbler than what's on the surface, she can hit 40kts with speed flag & boost. Granted a Benson is faster. But she  isn't a lumbering snail like the Akizuki when it comes to maneuverability.

I think it comes down to her utility, she is one of the better support ships in terms of annoying other DDs in a fleet setting, not 1v1. Unlike the Kagero, she has a bite when you engage her. She doesn't have the best torps but I've sunk plenty of things with it like your standard USN or IJN DD. I feel like it's an acceptable trade off for those guns.

 

Edited by GoldPile

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