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Thunderstruck2016

Rock, Paper, Scissor Balancing

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Can someone tell me the origin of this as in relation to how this game is balanced.  Because I'm trying to wrap my head around it and no matter how I look at it, it doesn't make any sense how people think this game has EVER been in a clear cut way of:

 

Destroyers counter Battleships, but are countered by Cruisers.

Cruisers counter Destroyers, but are countered by Battleships.

Battleships counter Cruisers, but are countered by Destroyers.

 

The only way I see this existing is talking about Tier 6 and below but even then there are exceptions.  Here's a list of my complaints about people who say it has been in this game.

 

1. Where do CV's fit in?  I mean this isn't Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock?  They've been in this game forever and yet whenever Rock Paper Scissors is mentioned, they leave out an entire ship type.

 

2. Stealth firing Japanese Cruisers.  So battleships are supposed to counter cruisers, right?  How can they counter something they can't see.  This was taken away recently, much to the chagrin of DD players, but if this has always been in the game, its another glaring exception to the supposed norm.

 

3. Mikhail Kutuzov.  The first line added to the game was VMF cruisers.  You could argue that they fit the Rock, Paper, Scissors mold.  High RoF guns that have low arcs with the exception being the Moskva.  A ship with the same HP as a North Carolina and is really long.  The other elephant in the room is the Mikhail Kutuzov.  Whats the destroyer hunting purpose of 19.1km range and smoke consumable?  

 

4. German Cruisers.  Once again, according to  Rock Paper Scissors, cruisers counter Destroyers.  So, German cruisers get better armor than their counter parts, worse HE (recently changed) and better AP.  Looks to me like these counter other cruisers.  

 

I used these 4 examples from early in the games life to show if it existed at some point in this game, where? Closed Beta?  Real life?  Wargaming interview? 

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It has always been part of the design philosophy, and has roots back before CBT. It's outright stated in game during the Mission Details screen before games start.
The types are NOT Analogous to WoT's types.

As to answer your questions:
1. Carriers are not part of the Triangle. Rather than counter any one part, they are good against everything but lose hard against groups. They counter lone wolves and lose to teams [creating that other paradigm that's mostly disappeared: Carriers > Torp Spamming Walls of Skill > Clustered Teams > Carriers] They're part of the game that's needed to keep the game mobile.

2. This literally was removed from the game and isn't relevant. IJN CA cannot do that crapany more, and they're why OWSF was removed from the game. If you're getting shot at from across islands or smoke, that's not any facet of the ships. Good job at pointing out how Rock Paper Ship is still part of the design philosophy though.

3. She's better at killing other Cruisers-- The Kutuzov can still run down and murder DDs but it's tooled to fight other Cruisers- as opposed to the rest of the RU CA line which are great DD hunters since Radar. It's akin to the Montana vs Yamato deal-- fighting down your own type is part of the deal. Montana is a Cruiser Killer, period. Yamato smashes Battleships to pieces [but can still loldelete a Cruiser, because that's what Battleships do].  Similar traits are seen on DDs. IJN DDs are very good at killing BBs. USN DD give up some of their BB killing ability via worse Torpedoes to slay other DDs via better guns. 

4. See above. But also note, German AP will do full Pens against DD, so it's not like they're giving up much in terms of tools against DD.

There's some play in the rules, but it's still a pretty notable thing.

 

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22 minutes ago, Kuckoo said:

I'm seeing double.

You are, kind of.  This thing has always bothered me when it gets mentioned (kinda like when someone mentions the S-word) and I've wondered why it exists.  I mean, there is an interview with a wargaming dev that says we wont have s-words in the game because they don't know how to make them fun.

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1 minute ago, AirshipCanon said:

It has always been part of the design philosophy, and has roots back before CBT. It's outright stated in game during the Mission Details screen before games start.
The types are NOT Analogous to WoT's types.

That's what I wanted to know.  I was never apart of CBT and I guess I have seen that on thee Mission details screen in awhile.

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Yes, in general it used to be Rock-Paper-Scissors, a diagram that showed a DD, CA and BB at the points of a triangle with a CV in the middle was released by a dev a while back I believe. An arrow pointed to the ship each could counter with the CV countering all.

 

As this is a game and not a sim, I believe the premise was that each class/type did well against one class/type, whilst weaker against another. Go figure, each ship had a balanced chance of killing any other - it was all down to the skill and different way the ships handled as to how you pulled off the kill.

 

DDs could even sneak past CAs and attack BBs and some IJN torps weren't actually seen from the moon by all accounts. However, you are right and things have changed.

Edited by _WaveRider_

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RPS was an oversimplification of how it works. Base concept was the idea DD's beat BB, cruisers beat DD's, BB's beat cruisers, with CV being a wildcard. And these ships do effectively counter those ships as is, and CV is still a wild card, it's just not as clear cut. Partially because there's sub levels of it between classes.

 

USN and RU are gun boats, better at DD hunting, IJN is really the BB hunter, Germany kinda is in the middle.

IJN cruisers again, more BB killers, UK especialy with near IJN stealth kinda ends up the JoaT, German cruisers definitely better at countering cruisers and DD's, French, no idea yet and well, USN and RU not only DD hunt but RU in particular but uh... generally just... burn everything down.

 

BB's, IJN is the  ranged BB killer, especially as you get to Yammy at ten with the biggest guns, USN, sort of the all rounder, Germany, kinda weird as it's guns shift from bigger/equal to small and back, but are most efficient at close range cruiser/DD hunting. I can't place UK BB's yet beyond they kill with fire...lots of fire.

 

CV's, done right, would see IJN as it is as the BB killer (till possibly UK enters) and USN the DD/cruiser hunter (till a possible German line happens) at which point, if those 2 lines are added Germany is DD killers (like a well balanced GZ as she was released would have been), IJN or UK is the BB hunter, The other of those two is a all rounder leaning toward BB hunter, and USN all rounder leading toward DD hunter.

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14 minutes ago, Thunderstruck2016 said:

1. Where do CV's fit in?  I mean this isn't Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock?  They've been in this game forever and yet whenever Rock Paper Scissors is mentioned, they leave out an entire ship type.

CV's are versatile and the Rock, Paper, and Scissor was never meant to be exact since WoWS is a lot more complex than the Rock, Paper, Scissor game itself. Just because I'm in a destroyer doesn't mean I'm always guaranteed to lose against a cruiser. There is always that level of skill and factors that can change the consequence. In the case of CVs, they adapt to the situation of the game. They counter ships that wander by themselves (especially battleships) and provide vital information for your team. CVs biggest role in this game is to provide BRIEF information by scouting with their planes, an aspect of the game that we lost.

Why do you think that the game has become more passive?

Because there isn't any other type of ship that can scout safely than CVs.

How about destroyers that can scout?

You know that game when you sent in your destroyers to scout and you lose them all in the beginning? It's safer, less costly, and faster to use planes to scout rather than send in destroyers who have better things to do like taking objectives.

Why are destroyers getting nerfed so hard?

Lack of CVs spotting destroyers gave them too much power at one point. Remember when USN can stealth fire without being spotted especially when there isn't a CV that can send planes to spot them? Remember when IJN had really good stealthy torpedoes before WG nerfed them because there wasn't any CVs to spot them?

 

My point here is that the Rock, Paper, Scissor mechanic is screwed over because a good majority of people only play a certain type of ship and THEY DO NOT LIKE THE FACT THAT ANOTHER TYPE COUNTERS THEM AS EXPECTED WITH THIS ROCK, PAPER, SCISSOR CONCEPT. So when you get enough people who don't like CVs because they counter them in CERTAIN SITUATIONS, WG went ahead and nerfed them. Now that we don't have CVs keeping BBs in check or spotting DDS, WG has to improvised. We get this chain reaction of filling the missing spot of the CV by adding radar, hydro, removal of stealth fire, and soon smoke/IFHE. We basically butchered the CV and now we are going to butcher the DDs just to keep them in check with this ROCK, PAPER, SCISSOR concept. We are simply bias with the type of ships we play, for example:

"I play battleships, WG please nerf HE spam, torpedoes, and CV's bomber so I don't have to worry about my counter."

"I play destroyers, WG please get rid of radar, reduce hydro, and remove CV's from spotting me so I can be invisible the entire match."

"I play cruisers, WG please buff my radar, increase my armor like the Moskva so I can bounce 406 BB shells, and reduce my detection."

"I play carriers, WG CAN YOU PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD FIX US BECAUSE WE WAITED FOR THE CV REWORK FOR 2 YEARS AND WE JUST WANT A STABLE GAME WITH THEM!"

 

AREN'T WE ALL BIAS AT SOME POINT? ONLY PEOPLE WHO PLAY ALL TYPES OF SHIPS AND UNDERSTAND BALANCE WILL OVERCOME THEIR COUNTER WITH EXPERIENCE.

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The origin is from WG themselves. They had an advertisement going into OBT, about joining open beta, that was literally nicknamed(due to the content in the ad) Rock, Paper, Scissors.

 

Edited by GhostSwordsman

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Rock,Paper,Scissors,Lizard,Spock ...... its 2017 get with the times Big Bang Theory Got it and WG is adapting to it. Only the Developers know how it works. DR.Sheldon Cooper is the head of the Development Team..... You should see his Board.... Beware the golden Sheldor Battle Ship.... 

Edited by CLUCH_CARGO

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You do realize that by the time Kutuzov was built, cruisers weren't DD hunters anymore, right? OWSF has been removed, why are you still complaining about it?

 

I'm getting a "I don't like it so change it and of course everyone agrees with me because I'm obviously right and anyone who disagrees is wrong" vibe from this.

 

Just drive the ships for heavens sake! Too many peer way too deep into things and then assume things that simply aren't valid.

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9 minutes ago, TheKrimzonDemon said:

I'm getting a "I don't like it so change it and of course everyone agrees with me because I'm obviously right and anyone who disagrees is wrong" vibe from this.

 

Sorry that you were getting this vibe, I wasn't trying to.  I know this game is adaptive because new content is added and what not.  I was wondering where the Rock, Paper, Scissors idea came about as Flamu and Notser just mentioned it in their videos. 

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1 hour ago, yashma said:

Image result for more guidles than rules meme

You know the joke of that scene is that idea that even as 'guidelines' the idea of parlay was [edited] and that they only adhered to it when it benefited *them.* Ironic or not, 'meme' or not, this is not something I'd deputize into any argument.

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1 minute ago, Thunderstruck2016 said:

 

Sorry that you were getting this vibe, I wasn't trying to.  I know this game is adaptive because new content is added and what not.  I was wondering where the Rock, Paper, Scissors idea came about as Flamu and Notser just mentioned it in their videos. 

One of the original trailers for the game, pre-Open Beta, mentioned it. My argument is if things from beta are valid, I want my Cheatland back and AFT/EM back.

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 RPS has been dead for at least a year.   meh,  but I still do want some balance between classes in terms of survivability, ability to win and reward.  That balance is broken IMHO, and no real sign of being fixed since WG is doing what they feel maximize their bottom line.    may be the skill floor is too high for today's average gamers since there is no skill based MM.    So, the trick becomes how to lower to floor while maintaining current level of ceiling.  that isn't so easy to do as lowering the floor tend to raise the ceiling in most cases. 

 

 

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In CBT and possibly before, the official site listed the game having this rock paper scissors balance. They had planned for CLs to have to escort captial ships and it seemed like they wanted to have lots of destroyers and cruisers and way fewer BBs and CVs in each game.

 

Originally cruisers were basically not going to be able to hurt BBs....

 

They abandoned that before I even joined CBT.

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RPS is a myth. The game never worked in this way, not even during CBT/OBT. And every time a neew line is added or a new patch comes out the games moves further away from RPS. Wich is a good thing IMO.

 

The game moved to a role balance now. Much closer to IRL naval combat.

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6 hours ago, Xlap said:

RPS is a myth. The game never worked in this way, not even during CBT/OBT. And every time a neew line is added or a new patch comes out the games moves further away from RPS. Wich is a good thing IMO.

 

The game moved to a role balance now. Much closer to IRL naval combat.

 

7 hours ago, GhostSwordsman said:

The origin is from WG themselves. They had an advertisement going into OBT, about joining open beta, that was literally nicknamed(due to the content in the ad) Rock, Paper, Scissors.

 

Not sure if Xlap is shooting from the hip with the myth thing? Yes, a balanced ability with established counters was a thing (evidence provided in this thread), as DDs were able to get past spotters, fighters and CV aircraft to pick off BBs that did not stick with their screen/teammates.

 

Unfortunately although there were many very good BB players that moved to support their teammates - there were also many who did not. Enter changes - radar, RPF, hydro, torpedo armour belts, bloom mechanics, torpedo changes etc etc. These changes allowed the poor BB player some endurance.

 

As the saying goes, make a mistake in a DD or CA and you die. Make a mistake in a BB and you lose HP.

 

These obviously restricted the play of DDs and gave more flexibility to BBs. It's a shame in some cases as a dependancy due to a vulnerability leads to teams that count on each other and work together.

 

However, this is a game and it's up to WG how they want to make it work. The customer can comment in community areas like this and accept the changes or not. To pretend things weren't different though? Lol.

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The game is seriously broken. There is no longer a balance between the classes of ships. DDs have been nerfed to uselessness (planes, hydro, radar, no stealth fire, nerfed torps),  CAs easily 1 shot by BBs.  I have played over 6k games, and I am very unhappy now with what the game is, BBs all BBs.  I will spend no more money on the game (think I have spent maybe $200 in last 18 months!).  The game should be called 'Battleships", whoops that name is taken.

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6 minutes ago, RussMaek said:

The game is seriously broken. There is no longer a balance between the classes of ships. DDs have been nerfed to uselessness (planes, hydro, radar, no stealth fire, nerfed torps),  CAs easily 1 shot by BBs.  I have played over 6k games, and I am very unhappy now with what the game is, BBs all BBs.  I will spend no more money on the game (think I have spent maybe $200 in last 18 months!).  The game should be called 'Battleships", whoops that name is taken.

I mean.. to be fair.. I haven't completely erased a cruiser in months. Multiple citadels, yes, 100 to zero, no.

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18 minutes ago, Elegant_Winter said:

I mean.. to be fair.. I haven't completely erased a cruiser in months. Multiple citadels, yes, 100 to zero, no.

But is that down to the Cruisers 'adapting'? I mean that has been the mantra to both DDs and CAs for a long time - adapt and get gud!

 

I would guess the BB players of old that complained about torpedoes etc and were also told to get gud; problem is, I guess sufficient numbers couldn't and the game had to change to accommodate the player base. After all this is a business!

 

Take the new Pan-DDs with the new torpedoes 'made to tackle BBs!' lol. It's merely a gimmick to sell ships - they could as easily address the issue by removing the torpedo armour belts on BBs, could they not? Allowing for more damage to take place and maybe punish a BB for getting hit with 6 torpedoes rather than it still surviving.

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1 minute ago, _WaveRider_ said:

But is that down to the Cruisers 'adapting'? I mean that has been the mantra to both DDs and CAs for a long time - adapt and get gud!

 

I would guess the BB players of old that complained about torpedoes etc and were also told to get gud; problem is, I guess sufficient numbers couldn't and the game had to change to accommodate the player base. After all this is a business!

 

Take the new Pan-DDs with the new torpedoes 'made to tackle BBs!' lol. It's merely a gimmick to sell ships - they could as easily address the issue by removing the torpedo armour belts on BBs, could they not? Allowing for more damage to take place and maybe punish a BB for getting hit with 6 torpedoes rather than it still surviving.

They'd just sit even farther back then.

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Just now, Elegant_Winter said:

They'd just sit even farther back then.

Absolutely not!

 

BB players that state this do a disservice to the rest of BB players who play their ships to their strengths! The silly 'if something is going to get me, then I won't come forward', or the 'I either sit at the back or run straight to the front' mentality is just that - the mentality of those players. That will never change unless you put in a God mode that allows no damage. There is absolutely no point in trying to cater for those players; better to cater for those that try and learn the game.

 

Most BB players I come across are good players that do well in their ships. The BB may be more forgiving but it still has some weaknesses that players have to be aware of (mainly the speed and being caught out alone to multiple incoming). As a DD I could not survive without support from all other classes; I also have to stick around and try and support the group that have come forward and supported me. Teamwork.

Only problem is some classes no longer present a danger to others; I mean what BB is really going to come away from destroying an enemy BB to kill an enemy DD that is firing torpedoes that can be seen a long way off, or hitting him with pew-pew guns? In fact nowadays they may as well let the secondaries cover that role lol.

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