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GrandAdmiral_2016

RN Carriers

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OK, I know this been discussed to death, but would WG please put up a USS Bogue clone as an Attacker or Ruler class RN CVE. Give it Sea Hurricane, or Seafires and Swordfish, or Wildcats (Martlets) and Avengers (Tarpons) as the upgrade. The RN did not like dive bombers and did not use them. Be a twist having a Bogue with TBs. Folks that like carriers are going to need some experience with an FAA aircraft loadout. HMS Pursuer (a straight Bogue with US radars) or HMS Nabob (with RN radars-Canadian connection!) would suit me just fine at T5. Gotta learn how to CV with the right airplanes! Put 'em up in a mission challenge or as a booby prize for missions, or just put it in the tech tree at the same XP level grind level as Bogue. I can't see aircraft being an issue as the Spitfires/Seafires were modelled for the Dunkirk Operation Dynamo scenario, and Wildcats and Avengers are already in the game. Paint roundels on 'em! Whatever, just get us an RN CV we can get sunk in!

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Other than tier 5 being a poor place for a prem carrier, I whole heatedly agree. If it was a prize for a mission chain I'd take it. Why not? 

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This sounds like a fantastic idea. T5 is ok, but what could be done to make it T6, and thus eligible for operations and ranked? Bogue is punitively slow, would we make it super undetectable? Would we go with up-tiered planes? Access to high tier modules?

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the RN doesn't need a Bogue in the CV line anywhere. There's plenty of early actual British CV's for the low tiers, and you certainly don't want to buff a Bogue to tier 6, it's barely tier 5 material as it is. 

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The RN might not need it but I'd take it if it meant getting a low tier RN carrier tomorrow.

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Maybe that could be the gimmick for the RN CV line in general, having more torpedo bombers. Well, at least it's a decent gimmick (certainly better than some others WG has thought of *cough cough*).

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1 hour ago, GrandAdmiral_2016 said:

OK, I know this been discussed to death, but would WG please put up a USS Bogue clone as an Attacker or Ruler class RN CVE. Give it Sea Hurricane, or Seafires and Swordfish, or Wildcats (Martlets) and Avengers (Tarpons) as the upgrade. The RN did not like dive bombers and did not use them. Be a twist having a Bogue with TBs. Folks that like carriers are going to need some experience with an FAA aircraft loadout. HMS Pursuer (a straight Bogue with US radars) or HMS Nabob (with RN radars-Canadian connection!) would suit me just fine at T5. Gotta learn how to CV with the right airplanes! Put 'em up in a mission challenge or as a booby prize for missions, or just put it in the tech tree at the same XP level grind level as Bogue. I can't see aircraft being an issue as the Spitfires/Seafires were modelled for the Dunkirk Operation Dynamo scenario, and Wildcats and Avengers are already in the game. Paint roundels on 'em! Whatever, just get us an RN CV we can get sunk in!

 

Those weren't Seafires, I'm not sure they were even Spitfires unless they just looked off. There's I believe a different plane in the collection,that I think is what is modeled.

 

A Bogue clone should run Seahurricanes (likely tier 5 candidate) and Swordfish primarily in the TB role (they were used as DB's as well). It's not that they didn't like DB's, more that they preferred aircraft that were able to carry that ordnance but not purpose built. Why even at higher tiers their TB's would be more TF's or "Torpedo Fighters". Though given it was put out that most likely we see UK CV's this year/start of next year (supposed to maybe be around the CV overhaul that hasn't happened) they'd have the UK planes modeled already.... unless they botched planes again and well, +1 voice that'll call them out on planes used.

 

Though, I kinda agree maybe make it some kinda reward ship. Even if it's 2,2,0, it'd be painful to play. Bogue is just so damn slow.

 

That or, in theory, they could be part of a branch/second line that theoretically UK might have the ships to support.

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44 minutes ago, SgtBeltfed said:

the RN doesn't need a Bogue in the CV line anywhere. There's plenty of early actual British CV's for the low tiers, and you certainly don't want to buff a Bogue to tier 6, it's barely tier 5 material as it is. 

I wouldn't argue to put it in the line, I'd say to make it a premium, either available for sale or through missions / campaigns. The question I posed wasn't "do you want to?" but "what would we have to do to make it playable?"

I'd say it's pretty impossible to boost the speed if we're trying to be correct to history (wiki lists them at 17-18 kn), so they're going to be vulnerable if a side collapses in a way that an Independence isn't. I'm not super clear on how much HP and armor matter to CV balancing, to me it's about speed, concealment, air groups (including now AP/HE bomb choice), and modules. Absent any installation of more powerful machinery, that leaves us with the other three to play with. I picked T6 because more options for ranked are always welcome.

Now, what could make the RN Bogue a playable T6?

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The RAF didn't like dive bombers.

The FAA did.

 

Which is why the Skua was primarily a dive-bomber, with escort fighter as secondary role.

And the Barracuda had dive-bomber incorporated in its specifications as a torpedo bomber.

 

And the escort carriers did carry Seafire IICs and IIIs, particularly off Salerno and France.

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7 minutes ago, HMS_Formidable said:

The RAF didn't like dive bombers.

The FAA did.

 

Which is why the Skua was primarily a dive-bomber, with escort fighter as secondary role.

And the Barracuda had dive-bomber incorporated in its specifications as a torpedo bomber.

 

And the escort carriers did carry Seafire IICs and IIIs, particularly off Salerno and France.

Seafires are a bit good for any tier that Bogue will be shoved into.

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1 hour ago, SteveStevenson said:

I wouldn't argue to put it in the line, I'd say to make it a premium, either available for sale or through missions / campaigns. The question I posed wasn't "do you want to?" but "what would we have to do to make it playable?"

I'd say it's pretty impossible to boost the speed if we're trying to be correct to history (wiki lists them at 17-18 kn), so they're going to be vulnerable if a side collapses in a way that an Independence isn't. I'm not super clear on how much HP and armor matter to CV balancing, to me it's about speed, concealment, air groups (including now AP/HE bomb choice), and modules. Absent any installation of more powerful machinery, that leaves us with the other three to play with. I picked T6 because more options for ranked are always welcome.

Now, what could make the RN Bogue a playable T6?

 

The speed is a killer, A hanger capacity of only 28 planes is another, the Ryujo has 48 in comparison. definitely not tier 6 material. 

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Good discussion.The only thing you can give her is stealth, and not much at that, maybe 300-400 meters less than Bogue at most. Speed and armor are out, because the regular RN CV line will have armored flight decks, hangers, and machinery spaces with cruiser-type armor plate! Seafires I like because they are 40 MPH faster than Wildcats. Sea Hurricanes were less present on later CVEs of this class, but they would make a good start point. Give 'em Avengers with the RN 18-inch aerial torpedo that helped put Bismarck down and devastated the Italian fleet at Taranto. It was a whole lot better than the USN's Mk 13. I know that dimensionally it won't fit in the Avenger's torpedo bay but anything that works. Just get something with RN wings in the game. The other thing is the RN actually used CVEs to attack Tirpitz in her lair in a Norwegian fjord using Avengers with 500lb SAP bombs and beat the crap out of her with them, putting her out of action for 6 months!. Allowing the Avenger to carry either weapon as a selectable would work. I still think it fits at T5 best with the torpedo or bomb loadout option and better concealment as the gimmick. You could enhance AA a bit, say 5% more than Bogue, or give her a Repair Party consumable that would allow reasonable heal, say 25 to 33% of health lost due to damage. Any other suggestions?

 

Edit: David Hobbs' British Aircraft Carriers gives an RN loadout of 30 aircraft for these ships, 12 bombers and 18 fighters. Commander Hobbs was the Curator of the Fleet Air Arm Museum, and had 2,300 flight hours and 800 carrier landings under his belt before he retired. He knows the FAA.

Edited by GrandAdmiral_2016

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Seafire IIC (non-folding) in a wartime film, showing operations from an escort carrier (I'm not sure which one)

 

 

Deck accident levels were horrendous off Salerno, but when operating in conditions that produced a breeze over deck, things got somewhat better. By no means perfect tho.

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I don't see a market for a premium Bogue. A premium CV needs to be at least tier 6 to have access to all the tools of the job. Probably more like tier 7 or 8 so that it has a large enough air wing to actually have fun with.

 

The first RN CV if I had to make a bet will be HMS Arc Royal (pennant number 91) at tier 7, with tier 6 planes similar to Kaga (gotta explain all the Swordfish) 

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Give me night and heavy weather game conditions (ie Atlantic/Med warfare, not just south pacific) - and I'd actually want the Swordfish as an option!

 

But, once again: She was in front-line service 1939-41. 

Because the UK was at war against the Nazi's and Fascists two years earlier than the US, there is a lazy tendency to compare early war RN ships and aircraft (1939-41) with early war US ships and aircraft (1942-43) as though they were contemporary.

 

Sure the Swordfish remained in service for the whole war - but mostly as a 'helicopter' ... all-weather anti-submarine aircraft operating from the smallest escort carriers and MAC ships. Submarine warfare was not a factor in the Pacific, so tends to be over-looked.

 

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The escort carriers played a very important role for the RN.

But this game doesn't have submarines...

 

They did, however, also get pushed into strike roles as the production of the light fleet carriers had been delayed due to the anti-submarine escort production emergency.

So they fought in a strike/ground support role the Med and Aegean, as well as the Indian Ocean and South-East Asia.

 

However ... if they were to be commemorated in-game, I'd be wanting the very first escort carrier - Audacity - at Tier III :cap_wander:

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10 hours ago, HMS_Formidable said:

Sure the Swordfish remained in service for the whole war - but mostly as a 'helicopter' ... all-weather anti-submarine aircraft operating from the smallest escort carriers and MAC ships. Submarine warfare was not a factor in the Pacific, so tends to be over-looked.

 

Submarine warfare was rather important in the Pacific, just not in the convoy defense world of the north Atlantic. I'm pretty sure a good number of warships and a huge ammount of shipping were sunk by submarines in the Pacific, but as there were no massive lifelines to winy civilians that needed to be taken care of it doesn't get the attention it deserves. Also if you look into the Pacific submarine warfare you can find some amusing stories about the IJN's lack of anti sub warfare knowledge not to mention the cleverness of the USN sub commanders, for example USS Barb who 'sunk' a train. A story I never knew about until one of my friend's eagle ceremony where one of the Barb's raiders came and spoke about it. I just wish I could remember his name. Anyway the Pacific's submarine warfare was more offensive rather than defensive. So since there were little to no IJN convoy raiding and while our subs were wrecking the IJN merchant marine along with anything else they could find there aren't many tales of terror like what comes from the North Atlantic and the dreaded U-Boat. Unless there are Japanese tails of the American and British hunters, but I haven't heard anything about them. I haven't gone looking for them either though.  So it was a factor, just not the factor it was in the Atlantic. 

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Swordfish equipped with ASV radar (with rookie pilots!) were used against Bismarck in 1941 flying from HMS Victorious,  and against submarines. They were used against Axis convoys in the Med, flying from Malta mostly, in both day and night strikes, right up until the invasion of Italy in 1943.

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that would make a cool senario idea

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Sure there was some submarine combat in the Pacific.

It was just nowhere near the intensity of the Atlantic, or even the Med.

 

I've read accounts from the British Pacific Fleet, where commanders were astounded their fleet - and fleet train - met no submarine opposition.

 

Why Japan made so little use of its submarine fleet - made up of effective and modern designs - has been the subject of debate for decades. But its doctrine seems to have been based on placing submarines as pickets under fairly rigid operational restrictions.

That being said, there were clearly a few notable and high-profile exceptions where they inflicted devastating damage.

 

Germany, of course, quickly evolved the 'wolf-pack' and had an extensive intelligence network guiding the pre-positioning of subs to maximum effect.

Of course, the consequence of that was an island nation facing starvation... thus the emergency effort to build/convert long range escorts - including, at first, catapult and MAC ships - and then hangared escort carriers.

 

 

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On 9/8/2017 at 6:34 PM, SgtBeltfed said:

 

The speed is a killer, A hanger capacity of only 28 planes is another, the Ryujo has 48 in comparison. definitely not tier 6 material. 

 

On 9/8/2017 at 6:58 PM, GrandAdmiral_2016 said:

Good discussion.The only thing you can give her is stealth, and not much at that, maybe 300-400 meters less than Bogue at most. Speed and armor are out, because the regular RN CV line will have armored flight decks, hangers, and machinery spaces with cruiser-type armor plate! Seafires I like because they are 40 MPH faster than Wildcats. Sea Hurricanes were less present on later CVEs of this class, but they would make a good start point. Give 'em Avengers with the RN 18-inch aerial torpedo that helped put Bismarck down and devastated the Italian fleet at Taranto. It was a whole lot better than the USN's Mk 13. I know that dimensionally it won't fit in the Avenger's torpedo bay but anything that works. Just get something with RN wings in the game. The other thing is the RN actually used CVEs to attack Tirpitz in her lair in a Norwegian fjord using Avengers with 500lb SAP bombs and beat the crap out of her with them, putting her out of action for 6 months!. Allowing the Avenger to carry either weapon as a selectable would work. I still think it fits at T5 best with the torpedo or bomb loadout option and better concealment as the gimmick. You could enhance AA a bit, say 5% more than Bogue, or give her a Repair Party consumable that would allow reasonable heal, say 25 to 33% of health lost due to damage. Any other suggestions?

 

Edit: David Hobbs' British Aircraft Carriers gives an RN loadout of 30 aircraft for these ships, 12 bombers and 18 fighters. Commander Hobbs was the Curator of the Fleet Air Arm Museum, and had 2,300 flight hours and 800 carrier landings under his belt before he retired. He knows the FAA.

So I'd say let's go with 30 planes. Can we get away with an up-tier air group? An upgraded Independence carries 37, but stock carries 30. What about up-tiering them to 7? Seafires and Avengers in the air group, with the Avengers functioning as both type of bomber, say 2-2-0 or 2-0-2 setups?
 

On 9/8/2017 at 7:31 PM, SgtBeltfed said:

I don't see a market for a premium Bogue. A premium CV needs to be at least tier 6 to have access to all the tools of the job. Probably more like tier 7 or 8 so that it has a large enough air wing to actually have fun with.

 

The first RN CV if I had to make a bet will be HMS Arc Royal (pennant number 91) at tier 7, with tier 6 planes similar to Kaga (gotta explain all the Swordfish) 

The market is that it's an RN CV trainer, making it T6 is my experiment that I want to talk out, which would increase the value since it can be usable in ranked.

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8 hours ago, SteveStevenson said:

 

So I'd say let's go with 30 planes. Can we get away with an up-tier air group? An upgraded Independence carries 37, but stock carries 30. What about up-tiering them to 7? Seafires and Avengers in the air group, with the Avengers functioning as both type of bomber, say 2-2-0 or 2-0-2 setups?
 

The market is that it's an RN CV trainer, making it T6 is my experiment that I want to talk out, which would increase the value since it can be usable in ranked.

T6 for a Ruler class CVE is a bit of a stretch, unless she gets a heal. 30 airplanes is the upper physical limit that she can handle using a deck park (and the USN thought it was dangerous and said so to the Brits). Going from 24 to 30 would require dropping the Seafires for Wildcats, as the Seafires did not have folding wings. Plane performance vs numbers choice.The RN used Hellcats off these ships later in the war, something the USN would not do. RN Hellcats actuallly tangled with Lufwaffe fighters (ME109G and FW190) and bombers and shot several of them down, in the Med and off Norway. I would not consider the Hellcat option because the entire CV community will howl, very loudly, their objections to Hellcats on a T6 CVE! Select setup in port, bombs or torpedo configuration, but not both at once. With Hellcats and Avengers and a heal she would just barely work as a premium at T6, with manual drop. She would need a Kaga-style tight torpedo drop, not the Enterprise variant, as she has a lot less aircraft in the air group! RN Trainer configured Premium CVE? I'll buy one and I am not a CV driver by any means. Look at my CV stats!

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1 hour ago, GrandAdmiral_2016 said:

T6 for a Ruler class CVE is a bit of a stretch, unless she gets a heal. 30 airplanes is the upper physical limit that she can handle using a deck park (and the USN thought it was dangerous and said so to the Brits). Going from 24 to 30 would require dropping the Seafires for Wildcats, as the Seafires did not have folding wings. Plane performance vs numbers choice.The RN used Hellcats off these ships later in the war, something the USN would not do. RN Hellcats actuallly tangled with Lufwaffe fighters (ME109G and FW190) and bombers and shot several of them down, in the Med and off Norway. I would not consider the Hellcat option because the entire CV community will howl, very loudly, their objections to Hellcats on a T6 CVE! Select setup in port, bombs or torpedo configuration, but not both at once. With Hellcats and Avengers and a heal she would just barely work as a premium at T6, with manual drop. She would need a Kaga-style tight torpedo drop, not the Enterprise variant, as she has a lot less aircraft in the air group! RN Trainer configured Premium CVE? I'll buy one and I am not a CV driver by any means. Look at my CV stats!

At tier 6 even with a heal you are just to slow with two few aircraft even if they were up a tier. Besides Kaga drop only works cause of the six aircraft and the fast torpedoes. So assuming 2/2/0 with 6 aircraft per squad to get the Kaga drop you would only have 6 reserve aircraft if the fighters are a base squad of 5 you get a total of 8 reserve aircraft with out Air Supremacy, or 4 with the 6 aircraft a squad. One miss step and you are out of aircraft. Likewise if you get jumped by a destroyer you cannot run away and have negligible secondary power Ryujo at least has a hope and both her and Independence are fast enough to buy some time. A Bogue is still a Bogue, which is almost too slow and too small for tier 5 as is. Thus I say leave it at tier 5  with 5 aircraft a squad. The two options for flight control would be 2/2/0 and 2/0/2. Allowing for a total of 10 reserve aircraft so enough to mess up more than once. Then give it Enterprise torpedo pattern with a narrower spread, so narrow the width by 20%-30%, and give the dive bombers a bit better accuracy than the Americans but with less fire chance than the Americans. Which if that's what they did I could see wargaming putting her together over a week.

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Also Independence gets Hellcats, Grumman F6F-3s to be more specific. 

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