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Landing_Skipper

Smoke Firing Change - BOTH sides visible?

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It's a straight nerf to offensive smoke.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.  If you want to use it for concealment, you have to stop firing.

 

- I see BB's staying where they are on the map more or less and skilled BB's who know how to read map position and when to push simply shrugging this off.  Inexperienced BB's that rely on smoke though will be unhappy.

 

- I see situations where cruiser life just got harder.  Not to BB levels, but this exposes cruisers to more situations where they can get caught and deleted.

 

- I see DD life not being impacted that much if they are solo and selfish, but their force multiplier potential just got shot to sh*t.  

 

As a Gearing, I can't run a line of smoke and make 4 ships uber powerful for two minutes because they can wreak your team without penalty.  I am not getting anything back for this loss of capability except nerfs to other classes.  I honestly don't know if it balances out, but this change didn't help me fight off a Khab any better that is for sure.

 

The Khabarovsk on the other hand doesn't care because it does 45 knots and is a light cruiser, not a dd =p.  He stopped slotting smoke because repair party heals are more useful and he is the best ship in the game at using speed and mobility as a defense.

 

This will hurt team play in the short term and promote selfish play till we work out new methods to exploit.  I think you will see more people unable to handle this in the beginning and play more passive till they grow a pair and start using terrain and positioning more.

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19 minutes ago, Bronco said:

 

I often wondered why in WoT, a tank would remain "spotted" for about 8 seconds (or so, can't remember the actual time) after LOS was broken while a ship that is considerably larger and less mobile/agile, disappears instantly. 

Because spotting checks in WoT used to be done relatively infrequently. At longer ranges, checks would only be done every 2 seconds. 

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5 minutes ago, Psicopro said:

 

As a Gearing, I can't run a line of smoke and make 4 ships uber powerful for two minutes because they can wreak your team without penalty.  I am not getting anything back for this loss of capability except nerfs to other classes.  I honestly don't know if it balances out, but this change didn't help me fight off a Khab any better that is for sure.

 

 

Exactly, this is the final nail in the Gearing is relevant compared to other DD's coffin. Now smoke will be purely a "Let me save you team mate " function, which is pretty underwhelming. 

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1 minute ago, HazardDrake said:

Because spotting checks in WoT used to be done relatively infrequently. At longer ranges, checks would only be done every 2 seconds. 

 

I don't think so. The duration of being "spotted" in fairly consistent regardless if you were visually spotted or proxi-spotted. 

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9 minutes ago, Cobraclutch said:

 

Exactly, this is the final nail in the Gearing is relevant compared to other DD's coffin. Now smoke will be purely a "Let me save you team mate " function, which is pretty underwhelming. 

That's what it was originally and supposed to be intended for in game.

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42 minutes ago, Bronco said:

 

I don't think so. The duration of being "spotted" in fairly consistent regardless if you were visually spotted or proxi-spotted. 

Exactly. Because spotting checks were done infrequently, the game was programmed to keep tanks visible for X number of seconds since the last time it failed a spotting check. 

 

WoWS has much more frequent spotting checks so that timer isn't needed. 

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49 minutes ago, Cobraclutch said:

 

Exactly, this is the final nail in the Gearing is relevant compared to other DD's coffin. Now smoke will be purely a "Let me save you team mate " function, which is pretty underwhelming. 

I need to finish my post on how to fix the Gearing and USN DD line. 

 

Gearing at this point needs either serious buffs or needs to be removed from the game. It is not T10 material at this point. 

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3 hours ago, renegadestatuz said:

According to Octavian's livestream Q&A from this morning, it will still apply for ships sitting behind smoke and firing. So it's not just for ships sitting in smoke. It applies if there is smoke between you and the target, whether you're sitting in the smoke or sitting behind the smoke.

 

Any mention of whether or not the smoke bloom rating is ship specific or simply caliber specific? ie: If a BB wades into smoke and only fires its secondaries will it still be seen at 13km (BB) or 3-4km (DD)? 

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Just now, ENO75 said:

 

Any mention of whether or not the smoke bloom rating is ship specific or simply caliber specific? ie: If a BB wades into smoke and only fires its secondaries will it still be seen at 13km (BB) or 3-4km (DD)? 

I did not hear him mention about that. But I could go back later and watch it again to see if I missed it.

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14 minutes ago, renegadestatuz said:

I did not hear him mention about that. But I could go back later and watch it again to see if I missed it.

I'm sure it'll come out at some point- just curious... 

 

My initial search only revealed older QAs... can you link to it or am I just literally blind? 

Edited by ENO75

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4 hours ago, Landing_Skipper said:

 

DD moves in on smoke cloud. Fiji inside is happily firing. DD closes to 6.5 km (or whatever range is) and can torp & shoot Fiji. Can Fiji also see DD if it fires at him?  Can Fiji see any ship that is firing at him in smoke?  Or does Fiji (and its giant, unarmored citadel) have to leave smoke in order to retaliate?

If Fiji remains blind, this is really messed up. 

 

No.

 

And even if it did, following your logic, a destroyer's smoke firing bloom is only 3km or thereabouts and you still won't see him at 6.5km due to this. Not without someone else spotting him for you.

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20 minutes ago, ENO75 said:

I'm sure it'll come out at some point- just curious... 

 

My initial search only revealed older QAs... can you link to it or am I just literally blind? 

Here it is 

This was his livestream Q&A this morning where he discussed it. I haven't found a text version yet though.

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2 hours ago, Sovereigndawg said:

and they disappear just before your guns reload.

 

Same as when going behind an island. Your guns will finish reloading a split-second after the island masks them....

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I listened to it with great interest- thank you! To return the favour I've given a brief synopsis of the questions and answers. 

 

First 5 minutes or so-

What is the most time consuming part of the development process-

USN CA / CL split timeline.  Split line with torps? (We don’t put torpedoes on ships that didn’t have torpedoes though they have removed fixed tubes that were on some ships- BBs example.

Deep water torpedoes details- Possible to retroactively fit ships with deep water.

 

5-10 minutes

IJN DD long range torp concealment buffs? ALL torpedoes are permanently spotted- once spotted- since position, direction and speed are known to the client.  Don’t want to return to torpedo soup.

 

10-15 minutes

Discussion on IJN DDs and whether they will receive buffs.

Possible for other country tech trees to be implemented? Do want some navies- working on several full lines. Not immediate future- but definitely on the board. Not a matter of if- but when.

Is wargaming willing to explore the option of multi-server account linking? Interesting idea with no strong objections but not widely requested. Not a high priority this year or next year (so far).

 

15-20 minutes

*Smoke stealth firing. Subscribe to the development blog on facebook… addressing some complex questions.  It sounds like it is based on ship / but also based on caliber (so it doesn’t quite answer the question I had about secondaries.) They do not want  BBs camping in smoke… “stop large ships from camping in smoke is a priority.” (me: I imagine it will be 15km whether it’s primary or secondary fire.) More prominent of a problem in Ranked / competitive play. Also want to offer some reward for players who are playing offensively and charging smoke.

 

20-25 minutes

Second IJN branch continuing?  Not sure when it can be continued- problem is finding the right ships. In the to do list. Won’t stay unfinished.

German port? Mentioned before that it is coming earlier- they are definitely doing it and hope that you will see it soon.

64bit game- timeline? Don’t have any plans to release separate 64bit program. Already gaining something from a 64bit system- stability improvement can already be realized.

When stats are being analyzed by dev teams, are they taking into consideration the various configurations of ships that are available. When ships are analyzed they typically consider the top configuration. There are some rules for testing- specific to flags, captain skills etc.

 

25-30 minutes

What is the niche of US battleships? Answer was- Optimal engagement range. IJN-USN-RN-KM in terms of ranging. Acknowledged meta changing.

What is your favourite battleship line? Favourite is GKF- spec’d to secondaries and “rush.” Likes to push. Doesn’t feel that Yamato can be played similarly. Wants to research conqueror.

“We know about concerns” (re: conqueror). Player base in Conqueror is extremely skilled- same thing happened with minotaur. “We will see!”

 

30-35 minutes

Any work on making more legendary captains or exciting feature worth spending money on. Not going to sell captains- not in their plans… however they do want to expand them. They will have some unique traits. Not about monetization. Selling might be possible in the future but not really anything planned.

Any data on how many earn yamamoto? Can’t have it yet- but the engagement in the campaign has been interesting. 2 super containers for each mission- which is great- though if you’re not doing IJN then the captain won’t be of use. No reason not to play the campaign.

Deep water torpedoes. Possible to bring in a consumable to switch the deep water torpedo capability? Removes tradeoff… concern about being overpowered since the deep water will have better concealment. Don’t want to overcomplicate. There are some options and they are aware of them. Will continue assessing. Still not tested- for now testing the Pan Asian DDs with regular loadouts.

 

35-40 minutes

BB AP large caliber vs DD- deemed excessive and the question is asking for changes. Right now most BBs stick with AP against DDs. Desire to nerf AP damage to DDs… but not adding more values for damage (ie: overpen, pen, cit values). Need to adjust settings- bot / auto testing already looking at the mathematics… supertesting beginning soon. Also likely reworking on under water ballistics. (interesting chat)

 

40-45 minutes

Is the dev team still going strong or are they tired and need a break? Dev cycle is hard to maintain- but they want to keep it up to keep the game fresh for everyone. They want features being released in quicker succession and the fresh stuff is important. It may not be as polished, but it will result in new content more frequently. Constantly hiring people but not a lot to choose from. (paraphrased)

Scenarios in different tiers. Considering tier VII for next season of scenarios- low / middle tier priority.

Describe evaluation of Akizuki following removal of stealth. Balanced. Trickier to play but doing really well. Lo Yang also doing well. Whole group seems better. Akizuki will likely benefit from the IFHE changes in recent patch. (removal of debuff for IFHE.

 

45-50 minutes.

More low tier pre dreadnought ships in the game? They are admired ships- but they do not do very well within the meta… fall out of fit with the gameplay. Probably will not be coming.

Not a new question? 0.5.8 ribbons were changed- person liked the old ribbons more than the current. Likely not going to be changing. Has been heard before- but not enough to warrant the changes. Mods have been made and this mod with old ribbons can be installed.

If DD spots more torpedoes / or any ships spot torpedoes do they get more credits. It IS rewarded- but the major aspects are cap contesting, damage and kills. Support activities are rewarded additionally- spotting / tanking – potential damage.

Aviation battleships in the game? Some chances of hybrid classes- however need to prototype specialized gameplay internally. Nothing has really popped yet internally- but there is some potential for the future.

 

50-55 minutes.

Why does the GZ not have torpedo bombers? Deleted destroyers- too easily. Destabilizing gameplay. Acknowledged a problem with GZ as well as CV balance. It’s been pulled as we all know and they’re working on her. Separate facebook page for that if interested in the news. Some GZ specific tasks / rewards could begin as early as next week- stay tuned.

 

Some questions from the facebook page: 

Something about an upcoming DD with gearing guns (pan asian line?) will this threaten the existing IJN DDs? No point in making any line unplayable and if necessary tweaks will be applied. (I'm not 100% sure about how to write this one out). 

 

55-60 minutes

Any plans to rebalance the gearing torps? They are kind of weird... possible to add some shorter range torps but not really wanting to do this. It does perform well- good option to increase speed of torps (captain skills) since the long range. Could be worked on later- but other ships need more immediate attention. 

 

Need to look at HE meta but now it's very annoying... What do you think? There is some HE popularity due to the RN BB line- will continue to watch and see if this is just some initial hype. Looked into the stats and damage received is proportionate- may some things that can be tweaked but only slightly. Still can't delete a whole battleship with a single HE salvo. Don't want a single shell to be dominant. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by ENO75
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1 hour ago, renegadestatuz said:

Thanks for the quick text version for everyone @ENO75 :Smile_honoring:

 

Ditto. Thanks from me too.

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4 hours ago, renegadestatuz said:

Thanks for the quick text version for everyone @ENO75 :Smile_honoring:

 

2 hours ago, Carl said:

 

Ditto. Thanks from me too.

 

Happy to help guys... helped to make sure I actually listened to the whole thing! 

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6 hours ago, ENO75 said:

 

Any mention of whether or not the smoke bloom rating is ship specific or simply caliber specific? ie: If a BB wades into smoke and only fires its secondaries will it still be seen at 13km (BB) or 3-4km (DD)? 

While the increase in detection range is roughly based on main gun caliber, secondaries of any caliber do not cause the detection range to bloom.

 

Btw guys, it'd be much better if you guys hopped on to PT to try these things out yourself, and provide feedback on it in the appropriate thread.

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5 minutes ago, amade said:

Btw guys, it'd be much better if you guys hopped on to PT to try these things out yourself, and provide feedback on it in the appropriate thread.

 

Why bother when the devs throw out anything not written in Russian?

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1 hour ago, amade said:

 

 

Btw guys, it'd be much better if you guys hopped on to PT to try these things out yourself, and provide feedback on it in the appropriate thread.

I'd rather ask about whether or not it was covered in the QA. Thanks anyway. 

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1 hour ago, amade said:

Btw guys, it'd be much better if you guys hopped on to PT to try these things out yourself, and provide feedback on it in the appropriate thread.

I make a living in IT, I don't like to give away my profession for free.  I'm available for consulting if the money is good though =).

 

Besides, I already called out their RN BB line was going to be a fire spammer and require less skill to play and thus be major power creep the moment I read what the line can do - it was obvious.  So did like ALL of their community contributors, including examples of gameplay.  If their internal QA couldn't see that one coming, I am not sure anything anyone posts here is going to make a difference now that their cycle has made it to public test.

 

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9 minutes ago, Psicopro said:

I make a living in IT, I don't like to give away my profession for free.  I'm available for consulting if the money is good though =).

 

Besides, I already called out their RN BB line was going to be a fire spammer and require less skill to play and thus be major power creep the moment I read what the line can do - it was obvious.  So did like ALL of their community contributors, including examples of gameplay.  If their internal QA couldn't see that one coming, I am not sure anything anyone posts here is going to make a difference now that their cycle has made it to public test.

 

By feedback, I mean to say tell the devs what you feel about it. Not predict what the outcome will be.

If you like it, say you like it. If you don't then say so. But try it out first, and give it a fair go while it's still in PT. WG has been known to change things prior to stuff making it into production server based on community feedback.

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13 hours ago, Landing_Skipper said:

Just reading a thread about how the new smoke detection range will affect the Perth. At 4.5 km Perth can detect any ship using Hydro IIRC. However, I'm wondering if WG is creating a new, unintended form of invisi-firing. 

DD moves in on smoke cloud. Fiji inside is happily firing. DD closes to 6.5 km (or whatever range is) and can torp & shoot Fiji. Can Fiji also see DD if it fires at him?  Can Fiji see any ship that is firing at him in smoke?  Or does Fiji (and its giant, unarmored citadel) have to leave smoke in order to retaliate?

If Fiji remains blind, this is really messed up. 

If you want to close that close to a RN CL in a DD, yea it will work like that.

 

I don't see it as a problem. 

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17 hours ago, ENO75 said:

 

Any mention of whether or not the smoke bloom rating is ship specific or simply caliber specific? ie: If a BB wades into smoke and only fires its secondaries will it still be seen at 13km (BB) or 3-4km (DD)? 

 

My understanding is that it is a function of ship class and gun caliber. 

What about Ernst Gaede and Z-23 with 150s mounted?  Do those two have higher detection range when they mount the bigger guns?

 

I think that this change is a bigger problem for RN cruisers than most realize. Many of us play them like overgrown DDs but we won't be able to do that anymore. 20s is more than enough time to guarantee deletion if any competent BB or CA is within range. Which they should be since we are firing out of the smoke at something.

Minotaur and Fiji are the bright spots in the RN CL line, but they are not easy to play well because they are so fragile.  Also, positioning is vitally important - even more than any other ship IMO. 

 

I understand the intent of the smoke changes. I do not understand why simply shortening the duration of USN DD smoke isn't a better solution. If a BB cannot push up toward a cap with even a hope of hiding in smoke for a bit, won't they tend to camp even more? Distance will be their only protection, and their guns have the range if not the accuracy.

 

THANK YOU all for the constructive discussion and really helpful links, etc. Wish this were the norm here on the forum. 

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I just went onto the PTS to check, and the Fiji is shown with 5.4 km bloom detection when firing from smoke.  Meanwhile, its own hydro, which presumably you are going to want to have on if you are smoking up in front of the onrushing enemy team, offers 4.2 km ship detection.  So a destroyer is going to have to play within that 1.2 km window if it wants to spot a smoke-firing Fiji for its own team while not drifting too close and finding itself 4.2 km from a pissed-off RN CL; it also, of course, has to avoid being detected by what is spotting for the Fiji to begin with.  Doable?  Certainly.  Will it happen?  Sometimes.  But high risk for the DD?  Most definitely.

 

Fiji is only one example, the one I could check directly; the numbers do matter for the other ships in the line.  But if this change does impact RN CLs too severely, it points to another alternative fix: buff their hydro slightly.

Edited by Lillehuntrix

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