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DeliciousFart

Changing overmatch ratio from 14.3 to 14.28

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Like it or not (I personally don't), autobounce and overmatch are two of the core mechanics of this game, and it can make the difference between bow tanking and lolpen. Right now, there's an issue where with the current overmatch ratio of 14.3, the 457 mm gun can't overmatch a 32 mm plate, but somehow a 460 mm gun can. The fact that those 3 mm makes all the difference is, in my mind, rather nonsensical. Right now, while the 419 mm Conqueror is arguably overpowered, the 457 mm Conqueror is effectively useless, since it has neither the DPM of the 419 mm option (or the GK or Montana), nor does it have the overmatch ability of the Yamato.

 

So why not change the overmatch ratio from 14.3 to 14.28? I don't take credit for this specific number, as I think I've seen someone else suggest it before, but I really think it's worthwhile. Just quickly running through the list of guns, I think this change would only affect the 457 mm guns and allow it to overmatch 32 mm plate. I don't think it will affect any other gun calibers. Someone can verify if they want. Doing so will at least give the 457 mm guns an identity of its own, and it gets rid of the asinine magic barrier that somehow lets 3 extra mm of the 460 mm gun do something the 457 mm guns can't.

 

If you want to just judge gunnery by itself, Conqueror with 457 mm guns would not offer much benefit over the Yamato. For one, she's got lower sigma of 2.0 compared to Yamato's 2.1, and 8 guns to Yamato's 9. She also can't bow camp to the same degree since half of her guns are located aft. Furthermore, this also opens up the possibility of partially raising Conqueror's citadel to make the ship more punishable as well.

 

I would also like to see 419 mm gun effectiveness reduced, and British BB HE as a whole toned down. Frankly I don't see why those guns are even in the game, since they were never even considered for Lion or L2 (Conqueror), and have complete fantasy characteristics. As much as I would want to, removing the 419 mm guns probably won't be happening, so why not give it a reload penalty, like how German 420 mm guns have compared to their 406 mms? But that's another discussion for another topic.

Edited by DeliciousFart
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1 minute ago, DeliciousFart said:

Like it or not, autobounce and overmatch are two of the core mechanics of this game, and it can make the difference between bow tanking and lolpen. Right now, there's an issue where with the current overmatch ratio of 14.3, the 457 mm gun can't overmatch a 32 mm plate, but somehow a 460 mm gun can. The fact that those 3 mm makes all the difference is, in my mind, rather nonsensical. Right now, while the 419 mm Conqueror is arguably overpowered, the 457 mm Conqueror is effectively useless, since it has neither the DPM of the 419 mm option (or the GK or Montana), nor does it have the overmatch ability of the Yamato.

 

So why not change the overmatch ratio from 14.3 to 14.28? I don't take credit for this specific number, as I think I've seen someone else suggest it before, but I really think it's worthwhile. Just quickly running through the list of guns, I think this change would only affect the 457 mm guns and allow it to overmatch 32 mm plate. I don't think it will affect any other gun calibers. Someone can verify if they want. Doing so will at least give the 457 mm guns an identity of its own, and it gets rid of the asinine magic barrier that somehow lets 3 extra mm of the 460 mm gun do something the 457 mm guns can't.

 

I would also like to see 419 mm gun effectiveness reduced. Frankly I don't see why those guns are even in the game, since they were never even considered for Lion or L2 (Conqueror), and have complete fantasy characteristics. As much as I would want to, removing the 419 mm guns probably won't be happening, so why not give it a reload penalty, like how German 420 mm guns have compared to their 406 mms? But that's another discussion for another topic.

The reason they don't want to give anyone else Yamato sized guns is because of overmatch in the first place, they could just as easily give the ship Yamato guns if they wanted to.  You idea doesn't at all address that core fact.

 

The mechanic shouldn't be all or nothing to begin with, I hate random chance, but armor overmatching wasn't guaranteed to within 1mm of shell diameter.  The mechanic itself is nothing more than a buff to large caliber guns, and I'm not sure they can re-work it without a metric a*s-ton of re balancing.

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36 minutes ago, Psicopro said:

The reason they don't want to give anyone else Yamato sized guns is because of overmatch in the first place, they could just as easily give the ship Yamato guns if they wanted to.  You idea doesn't at all address that core fact.

 

The mechanic shouldn't be all or nothing to begin with, I hate random chance, but armor overmatching wasn't guaranteed to within 1mm of shell diameter.  The mechanic itself is nothing more than a buff to large caliber guns, and I'm not sure they can re-work it without a metric a*s-ton of re balancing.

At the moment, the benefits of the 457 mm guns are marginal at best compared to the 419 mm. I know WG said in the past they don't want it to overmatch like Yamato guns, but they never gave a really good reason why. Until then I'm free to point out why that should change, and say what you will about WG, they're at least sometimes open to changing their minds if given enough evidence.

 

Besides HE (a problem with all RN BB guns), a 457 mm Conqueror would not offer much advantage over Yamato in terms of gun performance. It only has 8 guns to Yamato's 9, and it can't bow tank since half of its guns are aft.

Edited by DeliciousFart
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I have an even better idea, REMOVE fking Overmatch, life for cruisers would be better and the +5 MM tiering wouldnt be so bad if could atleast angle our armor vs bigger guns and actually deflect something. 

Autopen, overmatch, HE, all cheesy [edited][edited] mechanics simply in there to cater to the bads who cant be bothered to aim for crap.

Edited by KnightFandragon

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...You do realize, they nearly had the Conqueror be a Montana Clone only because of the Overmatch thing right?
You do realize they cancelled the Great Bow Armor Nerf [that would've broken Bow Tanking via allowing massive overmatching of everything- the proposed changes would've changed the overmatch caliber to 406mm] because of the Overmatch thing right?

Glorifiying the waste of steel known as Yamato is part of this game's identity.

It must be special. So those 3mm, while seeming insignificant, keep Yamato special because it can overmatch everything-- meanwhile the difference between 406 and 457 is rather pointless.

Edited by AirshipCanon
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1 minute ago, AirshipCanon said:

...You do realize, they nearly had the Conqueror be a Montana Clone only because of the Overmatch thing right?
You do realize they cancelled the Great Bow Armor Nerf [that would've broken Bow Tanking via allowing massive overmatching of everything- the proposed changes would've changed the overmatch caliber to 406mm] because of the Overmatch thing right?

Glorifiying the waste of steel known as Yamato is part of this game's identity.

It must be special. So those 3mm, while seeming insignificant, keep Yamato special because it can overmatch everything-- meanwhile the difference between 406 and 457 is rather pointless.

I don't see your point here. What would be the point of 457 mm guns then, if the difference is negligible? About the only difference I see is against some tier 10 cruisers with 30 mm decks, not enough in my mind to justify the significant drop in DPM.

 

Since when is keeping Yamato "special" a part of the game's identity? If that's actually the case then it's a really sh*tty identity.

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1 minute ago, Destroyer_Suzukaze said:

Conqueror needs a buff? Seriously?

 

Usually buffs happen to poorr performers, or Russians

 

This only buffs the performance of 457 mm guns to allow it to compete with 460 mm guns, since 3 mm being the difference between overmatch and bounce is nonsense. I even said that the 419 mm guns should be toned down. You seriously think the 457 mm gun is the problem with the Conqueror?

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Just now, DeliciousFart said:

 

This only buffs the performance of 457 mm guns to allow it to compete with 460 mm guns, since 3 mm being the difference between overmatch and bounce is nonsense. I even said that the 419 mm guns should be toned down. You seriously think the 457 mm gun is the problem with the Conqueror?

I don't think the gun is a problem at all, and I think it competes just fine. Which is why I question a buff.

 

If you were to buff the guns then you should compensate by knocking back the heal. It really doesn't need to get bettet

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457 mm guns and 460 mm guns should handle in functionally identical manners when it comes to overmatch. Literally the only reason they don't is because of REEEEEEE'ing Yamato fans, even though the 460's weren't even that good for a gun of their size.

 

Just nerf/remove the 419's from Lion and Conqueror. They did not need them to begin with.

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8 minutes ago, Destroyer_Suzukaze said:

I don't think the gun is a problem at all, and I think it competes just fine. Which is why I question a buff.

 

If you were to buff the guns then you should compensate by knocking back the heal. It really doesn't need to get bettet

Actually the 419 mm guns on Conqueror is a major problem, because it practically eclipses the Montana and GK in firepower, while at the same time being incredibly hard to kill because of the heal and stealth and underwater citadel. So no, I disagree because I think the two gun choices on the Conqueror are terrible, with the 419 mm guns pushing her into the OP territory, while the 457 mm guns are flat out inferior.

Edited by DeliciousFart

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There are a number of ships where the smaller caliber gun is the better choice. Should we change all those too? Should the biggest gun always be the top gun? 

 

My German DD could use a buff to those 150s. They just don't do as well.

 

Truth is my dds don't need the top gun buffed. They are performing just fine. So is the Conqueror

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38 minutes ago, KnightFandragon said:

I have an even better idea, REMOVE fking Overmatch, life for cruisers would be better and the +5 MM tiering wouldnt be so bad if could atleast angle our armor vs bigger guns and actually deflect something. 

Autopen, overmatch, HE, all cheesy [edited][edited] mechanics simply in there to cater to the bads who cant be bothered to aim for crap.

The problem with removing overmatch/autobounce, is that you end up with situations where a 19mm plate of armor can bounce a 460mm shell, given the correct angle. It breaks the immersion of the game and any pretense of these being real ships fighting each other goes out the window. It just wouldn't feel right. Especially since a 460mm shell would definitely have sufficient mass and velocity to rip through a 19mm plate of steel even at an 85° angle.

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30 minutes ago, DeliciousFart said:

 

This only buffs the performance of 457 mm guns to allow it to compete with 460 mm guns

Why the HELL do they need to compete with 460mm AP when their HE ignores armor angling already and has a huge fire chance and blast radius?

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38 minutes ago, DeliciousFart said:

Since when is keeping Yamato "special" a part of the game's identity?

Since way before CBT.

Yamato has always been the queen of the game (WoW's words, not mine) and NOTHING will EVER EQUAL her 460's, PERIOD.

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7 minutes ago, Carrier_Lexington said:

Why the HELL do they need to compete with 460mm AP when their HE ignores armor angling already and has a huge fire chance and blast radius?

 

The broken HE (something almost all RN BBs have) should be toned down accordingly, I never suggested that this overmatch ratio is the only change that should happen for the British BBs.

 

7 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Since way before CBT.

Yamato has always been the queen of the game (WoW's words, not mine) and NOTHING will EVER EQUAL her 460's, PERIOD.

Then it's time for the game to ditch that outdated and archaic idea, I don't care what Yamato lovers say.

Edited by DeliciousFart
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10 minutes ago, DeliciousFart said:

 

The broken HE (something almost all RN BBs have) should be toned down accordingly, I never suggested that this overmatch ratio is the only change that should happen for the British BBs.

 

Then it's time for the game to ditch that outdated and archaic idea, I don't care what Yamato lovers say.

I would agree with ditching Yamato's special snowflake status being able to overmatch everyone, but adding it to a second ship does not improve anything for anyone but Conqueror players. It makes the problem worse for everyone else. I can stomach it on Yamato (barely) because at least she existed and actually had guns that size. Conqueror is game fiction. It can have whatever guns and overmatch the devs want to give it as long as it does not pick up Yamato's sovereign overmatch ability.

Edited by Tzarevitch

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2 minutes ago, DeliciousFart said:

 

The broken HE (something almost all RN BBs have) should be toned down accordingly, I never suggested that this overmatch ratio is the only change that should happen for the British BBs.

 

Then it's time for the game to ditch that outdated and archaic idea, I don't care what Yamato lovers say.

Yamato lovers had absolutely nothing to do with it.

It was decided, way back in the elder days of yore when Frodo hadn't yet croaked Barad-Dur and the elf-maidens still put out, that the game would have a "Top Ship" and it would be Yamato.

Yea! Many have cried (and sniveled and whined and thrown major tantrums and tossed a lot of salt around) that this was wrong and a "BAD THING"; yet the Wizards of WoW, in their infinite wisdom (read crotchety, foul-tempered old guys with death-dealing hangovers) have repeatedly said "Nay; now beat it, you annoy me kid."

Which leaves us ... right freakin' here.

Bye!

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1 minute ago, Tzarevitch said:

I would agree with ditching Yamato's special snowflake status being able to overmatch everyone, but adding it to a second ship does not improve anything for anyone but Conqueror players. It makes the problem worse for everyone else. I can stomach it on Yamato (barely) because at least she existed and actually had guns that size. Conqueror is game fiction. It can have whatever guns and overmatch the devs want to give it.

It also has ramifications of potential 18" guns in the future, not just Conqueror. For example, the USN had the 18"/47 Mark A that was actually test fired with a superheavy 3,850 lb shell, with muzzle velocity of 732 m/s.

 

I think that a tradeoff between DPM and overmatch when it comes to deciding between 16" or 18" guns at least adds some variety. Right now with the Conqueror, the 16.5" guns are overperforming while the 18" guns are useless.

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4 minutes ago, DeliciousFart said:

It also has ramifications of potential 18" guns in the future, not just Conqueror. For example, the USN had the 18"/47 Mark A that was actually test fired with a superheavy 3,850 lb shell, with muzzle velocity of 732 m/s.

 

I think that a tradeoff between DPM and overmatch when it comes to deciding between 16" or 18" guns at least adds some variety. Right now with the Conqueror, the 16.5" guns are overperforming while the 18" guns are useless.

I'm not worried about potential 18" guns in the future. I don't think they will permit anything else to get Yamato's overmatch. I would prefer Yamato lose it too, but I'll settle for not proliferating it anywhere else.

As for Conqueror's guns, one is almost always going to be better than the other. If that happens, use the one that works better. At least she has that option. Also, the damage can be adjusted to bring them closer without improving the overmatch. I don't think you are going to find much support for doing anything that will let Conqueror have a sovereign overmatch like Yamato. Most non-Yamato players hate that she has it and would love to see it gone. Yamato players like their unique special ability and have no reason to support giving it to someone else.

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WG said a long while ago that Yamato's guns were going to be the best in the game without competition. Period.
Literally when it really got out that Yamato was going to lose it's specialty when the Great Bow Nerf was up to bat [406 would be able to overmatch all non German Bows. 460 can't overmatch those same so...] it got chucked out the window.


USN BB-caliber SHS is ignored because YAMATO-- the MK8 has the same penetration capability in reality. In game, nope, not even close.

8 minutes ago, DeliciousFart said:

For example, the USN had the 18"/47 Mark A that was actually test fired with a superheavy 3,850 lb shell,

This is like a Submarine. It'll never be in game.

Stupid? Yes [and unlike Subs, which'd suck, there's no real reason for it besides overglorifying the waste of bad steel] But it is what it is.

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Giving the Conqueror the same ability to overmatch 32mm bow armor on other ships would make it better than the Yamato as a ship.

 

So what if the Yamato gets one more gun and better sigma on its guns, it isn't as stealthy, lacks more AA power, less maneuverable, vulnerable citadel, and heals for far less.

 

You criticize how the Conqueror is a clone to the Montana and GK with its 419mm guns, but instead advocates that it should be a clone to the Yamato

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