When people get angry at their CV...

[anonym_Hf93Jbjm9WjT]

Another match, another positive team chat....

(after this I got blamed for 'not having fighters out' - I didn't have any left, but I couldn't be bothered to reply to the in game comments - as is traditional references to the sexuality of carriers followed)

[madgiecool]

Sorry, I don't know much about the Graf.

 

But just to confirm, you lost all your fighters and shot 7 planes while doing so?

 

I see why players complain about the Graf.

[anonym_Hf93Jbjm9WjT]

12 minutes ago, madgiecool said:

Sorry, I don't know much about the Graf.

 

But just to confirm, you lost all your fighters and shot 7 planes while doing so?

 

I see why players complain about the Graf.

not a good match, one match.., but then this one against a Shokaku i just finished ..

People complain when it gets good too. 

[madgiecool]

Nice game.  Looks like you almost got an arson achievement.

[anonym_Hf93Jbjm9WjT]

1 minute ago, madgiecool said:

Nice game.  Looks like you almost got an arson achievement.

That is fairly easy in GZ, if MM is kind...

[_WaveRider_]

CVs can catch you out, whether you push out too far or they just highlight your location and you get incoming fire. That's why most expect their CV to be the counter; only problem is it is difficult to be everywhere at the same time lol.

 

Mostly, if I've noticed the CV has covered other players well (or myself), I'll say TY in game and give a positive rating after. If I am being buzzed continually, I may look a the map and think 'where is the firkin CV?', but don't think I've ever reported one (given negative karma). Too many in this game think they know how another type/class ship should 'serve' them - if they want a particular ship to do something then they should stop complaining, play that ship themselves and do it!

[anonym_Hf93Jbjm9WjT]

25 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

CVs can catch you out, whether you push out too far or they just highlight your location and you get incoming fire. That's why most expect their CV to be the counter; only problem is it is difficult to be everywhere at the same time lol.

 

Mostly, if I've noticed the CV has covered other players well (or myself), I'll say TY in game and give a positive rating after. If I am being buzzed continually, I may look a the map and think 'where is the firkin CV?', but don't think I've ever reported one (given negative karma). Too many in this game think they know how another type/class ship should 'serve' them - if they want a particular ship to do something then they should stop complaining, play that ship themselves and do it!

As a t8 specialist (for now), if MM puts me into a match with tier10s, American BBs and tier9/10 cruisers with strong AA, honestly, I cannot cover players with only 2 fighters other than as a deterrent if they get too close to main battlegroups, or if I feel soft for one of our dds who is running deep (flanking entire map to get at the red CV). If I pursue, I'll just lose my fighters and we lose our best scouts at the same time, (map goes 'dark'). In these high tier matches, I have to be patient and wait for an opening to gp on the offensive, and that can be 10 minutes into the game./. If I am lucky (match I just came out of,) an inexperienced red Yamato will try going solo, that makes my day, and the Yamato's misery/ Some players just don't understand this patience..

[GreyFox78659]

I had a DD grieving for the whole match that I didn't shoot down the fighter spotting him. He didn't care that I was protecting 3 BBs and my self on the other side of the map and was tied down. I was in my Kaga we won enough said.

[senseNOTmade]

1 hour ago, nuttybiscuit said:

As a t8 specialist (for now), if MM puts me into a match with tier10s, American BBs and tier9/10 cruisers with strong AA, honestly, I cannot cover players with only 2 fighters other than as a deterrent if they get too close to main battlegroups, or if I feel soft for one of our dds who is running deep (flanking entire map to get at the red CV). If I pursue, I'll just lose my fighters and we lose our best scouts at the same time, (map goes 'dark'). In these high tier matches, I have to be patient and wait for an opening to gp on the offensive, and that can be 10 minutes into the game./. If I am lucky (match I just came out of,) an inexperienced red Yamato will try going solo, that makes my day, and the Yamato's misery/ Some players just don't understand this patience..

Honestly, my fighters often feel pretty redundant when matched with tier 9/10 AA. Does a Neptune really need AA cover against tier 8 CVs? Are we just stealing plane kills at that stage?

 

I never really lose control of the skies in random battles when playing my Shokaku, but I can still have trouble defending against flash strikes when my team is spread out. Looking at the minimap in the screenshots from the OP, I can't really see a way of properly defending that formation against a concentrated strike with fighter support even if you had all your fighter squadrons available. Conversely, trying to attack what I like to call "The mighty blob" formation can be utterly impossible even if the enemy CV is neutralized. Point is, I know how BB captains should serve me so that all this can be avoided, especially given that BB is the class I play least. 

[Rolkatsuki]

I was expecting my divmate in the killer whale scenario to be in the screenshots since we often see CVs on our team just fly their squadrons straight through the defensive line of the forts on their 1st sortie instead taking the long way south to attack the Nassau.

And my divmate would rage/elitist the chat for a good 3 minutes before they can hush up.

[BlueWaterWolf]

While I suck at CVs, I did put in the time to grind to Shokaku and put in a 19 point full-CV captain. The ship is fully upgraded with signals and camo to boot. Gives me a 58 aircraft rating at game start. As good as Shokaku can get anyway.

I get owned... hard, in any over-tiered game. My planes would evaporate if I sent them too close to most over-tier CAs or BBs... especially more than one close to each other. The AAA range on some of these ships is better than one may think too. Any red planes that get caught outside their friendly cover get strafed into oblivion, but it becomes a game of up-and-back with planes... trying to find a hole in the cover to get a strike in on a lone wildebeest straying from the herd.  If one's own team gets too spread out, then even with my 3/1/2 w/extra plane per squad load-out, it is impossible to keep everyone happy. I don't mind the meta, but it is a reality of what we have to work with. Don't play much CVs, so Taiho is a ways off.

Then there is the Big "E". 68 rating all the time in battle stats at start. Same tier. One mistake and my planes are done. :) The Premium Blues is an old song though.

There are going to be times when one gets caught leaning the wrong way, and the results are non-friendly chat in "friendly chat". CV Captaisn have to have thick hides, and know the "block" function. :)

 

[anonym_Hf93Jbjm9WjT]

5 minutes ago, BlueWaterWolf said:

While I suck at CVs, I did put in the time to grind to Shokaku and put in a 19 point full-CV captain. The ship is fully upgraded with signals and camo to boot. Gives me a 58 aircraft rating at game start. As good as Shokaku can get anyway.

I get owned... hard, in any over-tiered game. My planes would evaporate if I sent them too close to most over-tier CAs or BBs... especially more than one close to each other. The AAA range on some of these ships is better than one may think too. Any red planes that get caught outside their friendly cover get strafed into oblivion, but it becomes a game of up-and-back with planes... trying to find a hole in the cover to get a strike in on a lone wildebeest straying from the herd.  If one's own team gets too spread out, then even with my 3/1/2 w/extra plane per squad load-out, it is impossible to keep everyone happy. I don't mind the meta, but it is a reality of what we have to work with. Don't play much CVs, so Taiho is a ways off.

Then there is the Big "E". 68 rating all the time in battle stats at start. Same tier. One mistake and my planes are done. :) The Premium Blues is an old song though.

There are going to be times when one gets caught leaning the wrong way, and the results are non-friendly chat in "friendly chat". CV Captaisn have to have thick hides, and know the "block" function. :)

 

solid advice

[BlueWaterWolf]

Oh, forgot to offer a positive suggestion. Should have at least some cheese with the whine.  :) WG wants more high-tier CVs, as the missions we have to deal with show. Kinda hard to get there at the moment.

 

How about trying this....  T8-9(maybe 7) CV should have an MM lock.  Same or lower tier non-CV ships in battle. The AAA on T10 CAs and BBs is insane. 100 on some ships. It becomes farming. Like reverse baby-seal clubbing for T10. May as well be a shield bubble. Make it a little more fun, and little less chess-like for the ones that are trying to grind to T9-10.

[Wulfgarn]

CVs can derp just like everyone else. The only difference is everyone can watch you do it 

 

If I'm pinging one enemy squad with 2 planes in it that's on top of me, and you have 2 full squads in the next square doing nothing, I would expect the CV to at least run it off. 

 

I expect if you have all your planes left towards the end of a battle to kill the 500hp DD thats playing ring around the rosies with BB around an island, and also the 2k Cruiser sitting in a cap. Not fly everything right past both these easy kill ships to sink the enemy cv on the exact opposite side of the map. 

 

Bad play is just bad play, but barring stuff like that, yeah a CV shouldn't be hollered at for doing its job elsewhere. With as much salt that flows in this game, CV players just need to realize this comes with the job. 

[Grathew]

2 hours ago, BlueWaterWolf said:

Oh, forgot to offer a positive suggestion. Should have at least some cheese with the whine.  :) WG wants more high-tier CVs, as the missions we have to deal with show. Kinda hard to get there at the moment.

 

How about trying this....  T8-9(maybe 7) CV should have an MM lock.  Same or lower tier non-CV ships in battle. The AAA on T10 CAs and BBs is insane. 100 on some ships. It becomes farming. Like reverse baby-seal clubbing for T10. May as well be a shield bubble. Make it a little more fun, and little less chess-like for the ones that are trying to grind to T9-10.

T9 carriers can do some pretty amazing things to tier 10 ships. I really should have screen shooted the like 8 detonations I got on battleships that one day. I don't expect anyone to believe me cause if I hadn't witnessed it I wouldn't believe it myself. BTW if you want to detonate a Montana with a torpedo put it right under the number two turret from a 85ish degree angle coming from the front. Works most of the time. 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, nuttybiscuit said:

 

Another match, another positive team chat....

(after this I got blamed for 'not having fighters out' - I didn't have any left, but I couldn't be bothered to reply to the in game comments - as is traditional references to the sexuality of carriers followed)

Was in that game yesterday on your team. Yes, guy who was extra-salty is just plain wrong and deserves report for chat, but you, sir, as well ignored all requests for spot on the C- area where Harekaze ultimately wrecked our BBs and stopped push in first 10 minutes (I was in Udaloy so I could kill him, but not w/o spotting). I don't think you can ask people not to complain about you if you ignore them and cause your team problems.

 

If you play CV and don't spot - no bad words are bad enough.

[Grathew]

31 minutes ago, SlartiBartFastE2 said:

If you play CV and don't spot - no bad words are bad enough.

I could say the same for the DDs, or the CA/CL who don't push and BB who sit at the back. Yes CV who spot help give a huge advantage to their team. However a CV who shoots down all the opposing vision is doing as much if not more. Now Graf shooting down planes is likely a stretch. However if all a CV did was spot the team likely still wouldn't win. Finding that balance and damage is hard as each game will need a different balance be tween the two to assure victory.

Spotting v damage is something I struggle with beyond tier 8. Hakuryu for example I still have to figure out how to best deal with Essex fighters and what amount of flack my bombers can weather safely. With Graf Zeppelin I wouldn't expect much other than opportunity attacks on isolated targets, and little to no fighter recon due to the weakness of the aircraft. 

[aethervox]

They shouldn't get angry ever with their CV. CVs are trying to 1) move to survive,  2) cycle their planes,  3) pick targets & 4) avoid the enemy planes.

Plus CVs are seldom protected.  CVs have enough on their plate -  also trying to support teammates, if possible.

Players should never complain about what their CV is doing or not doing.

[Parliament_Funkadelic]

12 minutes ago, aethervox said:

They shouldn't get angry ever with their CV. CVs are trying to 1) move to survive,  2) cycle their planes,  3) pick targets & 4) avoid the enemy planes.

Plus CVs are seldom protected.  CVs have enough on their plate -  also trying to support teammates, if possible.

Players should never complain about what their CV is doing or not doing.

Ya, just take it in the shorts when your cv sucks, waste the camo and flags and time, and hope there is no cv or you get a good one next time. CV's are like quarterbacks if you have a good one you usually win, bad one you almost always lose.

My last three games had cv's in them we lost all three I combined their net results

96planes shot down and seven ships sunk vs 39planes shot down a one ship sunk. IF you are going to play quarterback, don't suck.

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Grathew said:

I could say the same for the DDs, or the CA/CL who don't push and BB who sit at the back. Yes CV who spot help give a huge advantage to their team. However a CV who shoots down all the opposing vision is doing as much if not more. Now Graf shooting down planes is likely a stretch. However if all a CV did was spot the team likely still wouldn't win. Finding that balance and damage is hard as each game will need a different balance be tween the two to assure victory.

Spotting v damage is something I struggle with beyond tier 8. Hakuryu for example I still have to figure out how to best deal with Essex fighters and what amount of flack my bombers can weather safely. With Graf Zeppelin I wouldn't expect much other than opportunity attacks on isolated targets, and little to no fighter recon due to the weakness of the aircraft. 

You cannot compare CV and other classes because WG did not balanced them and we all know that CV has much more carrying capabilities and impact on battle than any other class. Role of other classes (as far as camping/capping/hunting-DD's goes) is much dependent on tier, map, team composition, but CV job as spotter stays with any game. And this goes to Graf-Z especially. If you cannot easily challenge fighters neither you can reliable hit ships, - spotting is your primary objective. (that's why your argument about CV who shoots down all opposing is not applicable here - GZ have terrible fighters). "Little to no fighter recon due to the weakness of the aircraft" - this as well doesn't make sense. Your plane is bad fighter, so let's not spot as well. Logic???

 

15 minutes ago, aethervox said:

They shouldn't get angry ever with their CV. CVs are trying to 1) move to survive,  2) cycle their planes,  3) pick targets & 4) avoid the enemy planes.

Plus CVs are seldom protected.  CVs have enough on their plate -  also trying to support teammates, if possible.

Players should never complain about what their CV is doing or not doing.

You should not get angry. Period. Yes. 

Also, every class have it's challenges, but only CV has uneqaully big impact on the team. So if you suck at CV - don't play it in hi-tiers or play in Co-op first.

[Grathew]

3 minutes ago, SlartiBartFastE2 said:

 "Little to no fighter recon due to the weakness of the aircraft" - this as well doesn't make sense. Your plane is bad fighter, so let's not spot as well. Logic???

It has so little health it will get shot down. Thus scouting with it is throwing away aircraft. 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Grathew said:

It has so little health it will get shot down. Thus scouting with it is throwing away aircraft. 

Not quite. There are only limited situations when you could be shot down before spotting occurs - Grozovoi, Atlanta, Flint, Akizuki and few other. None of those ships were present at the game we're talking about and nobody expects you to keep hanging fighters above hi-aa-rating ships. He was asked to spot Harekaze - this thing have potato revolver for AA. Also fighter have been wasted on combat with other fighters - definitely much worse use.

[GreyFox78659]

1 hour ago, SlartiBartFastE2 said:

Not quite. There are only limited situations when you could be shot down before spotting occurs - Grozovoi, Atlanta, Flint, Akizuki and few other. None of those ships were present at the game we're talking about and nobody expects you to keep hanging fighters above hi-aa-rating ships. He was asked to spot Harekaze - this thing have potato revolver for AA. Also fighter have been wasted on combat with other fighters - definitely much worse use.

Lies, down tier aircraft will get shot down by higher tier AA rather fast. In those games the CV is there to pick off late game stragglers they can't do much else. Also if the team decided to spread out even up tier carriers can struggle as the have to keep an eye out for flanking DDs and deal with them themselves as the team always to far away to aid in time. For something "so important and influential to the battle" I have yet to see a team once protect a carrier. They are always grieving him for not doing something. At this point I am for creating some form of flagship system so carriers can reward escorts that protect them and teammates that go for caps they designate. So his fighters don't just vanish because a higher tier cruiser is waiting to ambush them at a cap point because the team is to chicken to move up but have plenty of time to type out how bad of a job he is doing from their potato cover.

[Grathew]

1 hour ago, SlartiBartFastE2 said:

Not quite. There are only limited situations when you could be shot down before spotting occurs - Grozovoi, Atlanta, Flint, Akizuki and few other. None of those ships were present at the game we're talking about and nobody expects you to keep hanging fighters above hi-aa-rating ships. He was asked to spot Harekaze - this thing have potato revolver for AA. Also fighter have been wasted on combat with other fighters - definitely much worse use.

You are also forgetting that any ship in smoke and most DD will spot the aircraft before the aircraft spots them. Thus the longer you search and not find the destroyer the more likely your fighters will end up in fighter combat, which is a waste. Furthermore other than a few destroyers every ship is a threat to the Graf's aircraft. While the speed is good for recon, any mistake will get them killed. If they get a fighter health boost then they will become amazing spotters. Also Graf can choose to either deal damage or recon/shootdown aircraft. There is really no way to do both with the current state of the ship, which why I don't play the ship much these days. You either get to do well and have little impact on how the game turns out, or you do everything you can to back your team up and have little impact on how the game turns out.  

 

Also your statement:

1 hour ago, SlartiBartFastE2 said:

You cannot compare CV and other classes because WG did not balanced them and we all know that CV has much more carrying capabilities and impact on battle than any other class. Role of other classes (as far as camping/capping/hunting-DD's goes) is much dependent on tier, map, team composition, but CV job as spotter stays with any game..

Why can't I? WG did not balance other ships to each other? There's 10 or 11 non carriers a team, depending if you have 1 or 2 carriers on a team. That coupled with the mirror of same tier carriers keeps the carrier in check. Back in closed beta when carriers were just another ship it was slaughter, as the team without the carrier couldn't defend them selves. If we were still in that situation I would agree. But now how can you say that carriers are less dependent on team composition, tier and map. If a carrier is bottom tier and all the top tier ships are cruisers and battleships what do you expect it to do? Likewise if you are a carrier on a map with a large amount of close quarters fighting lining up drops becomes difficult if there is any friendly near by. Couple those two together and playing a carrier becomes very team dependent. Yes your individual performance is the most independent than anyone else on the team but the team performance sorely relies on the team taking advantage of what the carrier is doing.

For example, if the surface fleet decides that pushing one side hard abandoning all the others, a carrier cannot hold that side. A IJN DD on the other hand can, as you pointed out here.

2 hours ago, SlartiBartFastE2 said:

where Harekaze ultimately wrecked our BBs and stopped push in first 10 minutes 

That is a single unspotted DD stopping one side of the map in its tracks. A carrier cannot do that, depending upon the carrier and player they may be able to slow it down a little bit, maybe take a ship or two. But that carrier could not wreck any push with out surface support. This comes to carriers not being able to hold ground. They can open up ground, or perhaps sea in this case, but they cannot hold it. Sure a carrier can deal the most damage, spot the most ships, shoot down the most aircraft, but if the surface fleet decides that they want to all go one way and get torpedoed by that spotted DD, or sail into those torpedoes you spotted leaving the smokescreen two minutes ago there is nothing you can do. So sure carriers have the most potential to carry a team. But with out the surface ships doing their jobs there is nothing you can do to turn the game around. It is true that some carriers have better chances to turn a failing game around than others, the IJN or strike American IMO, but with out a team that can take advantage of the work the carrier does it's a loss. 

So while the map may only come into play based upon how your team plays, as close quarter strikes are difficult to pull off safely. Your team composition, and more importantly how your team plays impacts how much of your potential you get to use, unlike any other class of ship. Battleships just need to hit targets, and not take too much damage in return. CL//CA can eat any DD and amplify the usefulness of the ships around them thanks to their good AA and spotting potential with either the scout aircraft, radar, or hydro. DD can use their amazing stealth ratings and maneuverability to outflank any push and harass it with torpedoes and gunfire, and smoke can turn a fair fight to a unfair one extremely quickly if you know when and where to put it. All of these things can be done regardless of team comp, map and tier or how the rest of your team plays. Sure it is way easier to do well when you have the 'ideal' map and matchmaking but using what your ship in a way that is good for your team, the team will still get good results.

Carriers on the other hand when they play to spot for their team are often giving up mitigating of the opposing carrier's damage. Which in my mind is the most important thing to do as a carrier. Spotting only helps as much as the people who shoot at the target. Killing the DD with either dive or torpedo attack is a far better thing to do than simply spotting and hoping that someone can be bothered to shoot it. Cause in my experience they don't shoot at the spotted target. Where as putting ships down means there's one less thing threatening your ships, and one less thing for you to worry about sneaking up on you. Thus not spotting I don't see as that overly hindering. Now if people are shooting at it, and it disappears I'll chase after it, as I didn't have to track it down. But spending time searching for a single DD when there are other ships that need damaging, and protection from air attack is seldom the best course of action. Unless there is enough AA cruisers around all the vulnerable targets to warrant using your fighters only as recon, otherwise those fighters should always be placed in between the biggest air targets and the hostile carrier. Which is both MM and how the team plays dependent. Seldom do I get teams where the cruisers are both plentiful enough and positioned correctly to warrant me abandoning the defense of the team to go chase after a single destroyer or two. 

[anonym_Hf93Jbjm9WjT]

3 hours ago, SlartiBartFastE2 said:

Was in that game yesterday on your team. Yes, guy who was extra-salty is just plain wrong and deserves report for chat, but you, sir, as well ignored all requests for spot on the C- area where Harekaze ultimately wrecked our BBs and stopped push in first 10 minutes (I was in Udaloy so I could kill him, but not w/o spotting). I don't think you can ask people not to complain about you if you ignore them and cause your team problems.

 

If you play CV and don't spot - no bad words are bad enough.

By that point in this game, I had literally no fighters left to spot with (as you can see in the screen shot if you know where to look). I had,; however,spent much of the game spotting and defending our collapsing western flank which as you can see in the screen shot, left us corned in 1/4 of the map/ The guy who died (and got upset, was in a tier 9 CL (neptune?), I don't know what or who killed him, he didn't say, and honestly I was too busy to ask questions at that point. As for scouting C, we as a team are camping C, quite uselessly, as you can see in the screenshot. C was the first area scouted out at match start, basically because I was sitting in Northern corner, right next to it, following which half team decided to occupy it.