So apparently AP shatters can destroy AA mounts.

[MJPIA]

A long time ago I was throwing AP at a South Carolina and noticed on a salvo of shatters I destroyed a aa module but I didn't take any screenshots for proof and it slipped my mind until recently so I decided to run some tests in the training room.

I used the Tachibana for this test because her AP is unique, a while back when they did global changes to AP normalization her values were changed from roughly 62 degrees to 10 which removed her ability to pen anything at any angle but she still has one unique thing left over.

With the exception of high tier US cruisers on most ships their AP starts ricocheting at 45 degrees and will always ricochet at 60 degrees.

Tachibana's always richochet numbers are normal at 60 degrees but her start richochet numbers are 91 degrees which apparently override the other numbers and you can see the result here:

Her AP will always shatter or pen, it is impossible for them to bounce.

Couple that with her low penetration and very high arcs at 9km with reasonable accuracy it makes her the perfect ship to do this test which just involved firing AP until something happened.

Given Yamato is slathered with secondaries and AA mounts she made the perfect target for this test and it did not disappoint.

It took 180 hits to accomplish but I managed to take out a AA mount with a shatter.

Now the question is how?

My first assumption is that AP shells have a small bursting charge in real life and even on a shatter it still explodes which could cause it but here's most of the data on her AP and there's nothing like that in-game.

Spoiler

"PJPA041_76mm_AP_Type_0": {
        "alphaDamage": 1000.0,
        "alphaPiercingHE": 0.0,
        "ammoType": "AP",
        "bulletAirDrag": 0.35,
        "bulletAlwaysRicochetAt": 60.0,
        "bulletCap": true,
        "bulletCapNormalizeMaxAngle": 10.0,
        "bulletDetonator": 0.01,
        "bulletDetonatorSpread": 0.0,
        "bulletDetonatorThreshold": 13.0,
        "bulletDiametr": 0.0762,
        "bulletKrupp": 2150.0,
        "bulletMass": 6.5,
        "bulletPenetrationSpread": 0.0,
        "bulletRicochetAt": 91.0,
        "bulletSpeed": 690.0,
        "bulletUnderwaterDistFactor": 0.8,
        "bulletUnderwaterPenetrationFactor": 0.9,
        "bulletWaterDrag": 10.0,
        "burnProb": -0.5,
        "costCR": 5,
        "crewSmokeTexture": "particles/trails/Trail_smoke_commander_R.tga",
        "damage": 0.0,
        "directDamage": 0.0
        "splashArmorCoeff": 0.0,
        "splashCubeSize": 0.0,

 

This is her HE shell in comparison:

Spoiler

"PJPA042_Shell_76mm_HE_O_Mk_2": {
        "alphaDamage": 1300.0,
        "alphaPiercingHE": 13.0,
        "ammoType": "HE",
        "bulletAirDrag": 0.331,
        "bulletAlwaysRicochetAt": 60.0,
        "bulletCap": true,
        "bulletCapNormalizeMaxAngle": 68.0,
        "bulletDetonator": 0.001,
        "bulletDetonatorSpread": 0.0,
        "bulletDetonatorThreshold": 2.0,
        "bulletDiametr": 0.0762,
        "bulletKrupp": 1000.0,
        "bulletMass": 5.67,
        "bulletPenetrationSpread": 0.0,
        "bulletRicochetAt": 91.0,
        "bulletSpeed": 680.0,
        "bulletUnderwaterDistFactor": 0.8,
        "bulletUnderwaterPenetrationFactor": 0.9,
        "bulletWaterDrag": 10.0,
        "burnProb": 0.06,
        "costCR": 5,
        "crewSmokeTexture": "particles/trails/Trail_smoke_commander_R.tga",
        "damage": 220.0,
        "directDamage": 0.0,
        "splashArmorCoeff": -0.4,
        "splashCubeSize": 0.21,

The splashCubeSize is the size of the explosion and all AP shells in-game is set to 0 so I don't think that's it.

I can see several possibilities.

1. Despite what I can find AP shells on shattering do actually have a small bursting charge that go off that can effect things in a small radius.

2. A very long time ago AP shells had spalling damage which was brokenly overpowered and was taken out in 0.3 or so, there's nothing in the client files that I can find and its unlikely but there's a small possibility that some spalling code involving modules was left behind in the server files which is what took out the mount.

3. Ribbons might be bugged and a shell actually penetrated.

Or AA module damage is still not fully understood and its something entirely different.

 

I welcome anyone's elses pet theories on this.

 

 

On way or another this isn't going to effect anyone's gameplay but I find it to be a mildly interesting fact considering everything we know about AP in-game says it won't do any damage unless the shell penetrates so there it is.

 

 

 

[TheDreadnought]

Interesting.

 

why shouldn't an AP shell that shatters take out some AA occasionally?  There'd be all that shrapnel flying around.

[Geek_Girl]

Happy to see this can happen in game as it's realistic. AA and torpedo stations should be affected when hit direct or by a near shattered shell.

[Lert]

Interesting.

[IronWolfV]

56 minutes ago, TheDreadnought said:

Interesting.

 

why shouldn't an AP shell that shatters take out some AA occasionally?  There'd be all that shrapnel flying around.

For small caliber AA yeah I can see that. This is good to know.

[OgreMkV]

Perhaps slightly related... I got an incapacitation flag using UK BB HE... but didn't get a hit (not a shatter, not a glance, not anything). 

[RipNuN2]

6 minutes ago, OgreMkV said:

Perhaps slightly related... I got an incapacitation flag using UK BB HE... but didn't get a hit (not a shatter, not a glance, not anything). 

 

HE shells have an explosion radius which can knock out modules if it hits close enough to the ship. You see that alot against DD's as they have so little armor.

[FayFay731]

I mean even if you don't do damage you're helping your cv at least. Teamwork?

[MJPIA]

6 hours ago, TheDreadnought said:

Interesting.

 

why shouldn't an AP shell that shatters take out some AA occasionally?  There'd be all that shrapnel flying around.

Well yeah even if the Banana's 76mm shell weighs some 14lbs thats still 14lbs of metal shrapnel that realistically would wreak havoc on AA mounts but in-game AP shells don't seem to explode like HE shells do with a blast radius that will harm nearby modules and I can't think of any game mechanics that would cause this for sure so its got me curious.

Sub_Octavian will probably be having a Q&A on Reddit soon so I guess I'll bring it up when that happens.

 

Huh, I guess maybe I should also try raining down shells on some lightly armored cruiser turrets to see if I can incapacitate or destroy one with shatters, I doubt it but won't know for sure unless I try.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

It becomes really apparent on RN CLs where you have spammy AP-only guns.  There are angles the target can take where the power of RN CL AP goes to the sh!tters.  You literally do no damage but you can still knock out modules.

 

[Big_Spud]

HE shell shatters can also knock out modules behind armor somehow, like secondary battery mounts.

[79bigred79]

That' great.. now explain how I can have pen hits that register no damage in a bb?... let me cut you off... not over pen.. not shatter.. a full pen indicator...no damage

[biggie1447]

On 9/2/2017 at 8:43 AM, MJPIA said:

The splashCubeSize is the size of the explosion and all AP shells in-game is set to 0 so I don't think that's it.

I can see several possibilities.

1. Despite what I can find AP shells on shattering do actually have a small bursting charge that go off that can effect things in a small radius.

2. A very long time ago AP shells had spalling damage which was brokenly overpowered and was taken out in 0.3 or so, there's nothing in the client files that I can find and its unlikely but there's a small possibility that some spalling code involving modules was left behind in the server files which is what took out the mount.

3. Ribbons might be bugged and a shell actually penetrated.

Or AA module damage is still not fully understood and its something entirely different.

 

I welcome anyone's elses pet theories on this.

My theory is that the shell is actually over-penning a gun directly.  This would likely kill the AA gun due to their low hitpoints but since they arn't really modeled as a ship hitbox you don't recieve a shell hit indicator.  The shell then continues on to hit the hull behind the gun and shatter there.

 

On 9/2/2017 at 10:19 AM, OgreMkV said:

Perhaps slightly related... I got an incapacitation flag using UK BB HE... but didn't get a hit (not a shatter, not a glance, not anything). 

It can happen with nearly every HE shell in the game.  My theory is that the shell lands close enough to the ship in the water for the explosion radius to reach the module but the armor is strong enough to not be penetrated by the AOE.  Modules are registered differently so you don't get a hit marker or damage but the module is knocked out anyway, this happens to DDs a lot.

 

9 hours ago, 79bigred79 said:

That' great.. now explain how I can have pen hits that register no damage in a bb?... let me cut you off... not over pen.. not shatter.. a full pen indicator...no damage

Main battery or secondary battery modules are know to absorb shell hits, it is weird and annoying but that's probably what happened.

 

Here is one I cant explain, last night I was playing my Nagato and I had a single overpen hit on a Furataka that did over 5k damage. I assume that i ovepened the superstructure and then the shell droped down into the deck but I only had that single hit marker for details.

[Kenjister]

16 minutes ago, biggie1447 said:

My theory is that the shell is actually over-penning a gun directly.  This would likely kill the AA gun due to their low hitpoints but since they arn't really modeled as a ship hitbox you don't recieve a shell hit indicator.  The shell then continues on to hit the hull behind the gun and shatter there.

This is what I was thinking too.  While modules can absorb damage and give shell indicators (see the infamous 0 damage pen), the hit ribbon probably doesn't register if the shell doesn't do anything when passing through a module.  Otherwise everytime you rake a BB's with ap you should be getting 10x overpen + 1x ricochet/pen.  It seems that you overpenned the module, which killed it, then the shell continued and shattered against the hull!

[LittleWhiteMouse]

I can explain this pretty simply.

1. AP shells do not have a bursting charge.  There's no AOE effect to them whatsoever.
2. AP shell overpenetrations cannot damage modules.  They have to stop inside a module in order to damage it.
3. What' you're seeing here is an AP shell travel into an AA/secondary mount with enough energy to punch all of the way through it and then hitting the deck/armour of the ship on the other side and not having enough energy to penetrate the ship itself.  Thus the shell (unable to ricochet) arrests where it lands, inside the gun mount and it thus inflicts its listed shell damage to the module itself. 

 

[Soshi_Sone]

19 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Thus the shell (unable to ricochet) arrests where it lands, inside the gun mount and it thus inflicts its listed shell damage to the module itself. 

 

So.....if the kinetic energy of the shell is less than necessary to penetrate the deck armor beneath the mount, the kinetic energy delivered to the mount is "delivered" to the mount.  However, if the kinetic energy of the shell is more than necessary to penetrate the deck armor underneath the mount, then the kinetic energy delivered to the mount is "ignored".

Cowboy1:  "I shot him right through the heart...and he just kept on coming"

Comboy2: "Yeah, you have to get that bullet to stop IN the heart to be effective...going through...it's like you missed altogether.

[79bigred79]

1 hour ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

I can explain this pretty simply.

1. AP shells do not have a bursting charge.  There's no AOE effect to them whatsoever.
2. AP shell overpenetrations cannot damage modules.  They have to stop inside a module in order to damage it.
3. What' you're seeing here is an AP shell travel into an AA/secondary mount with enough energy to punch all of the way through it and then hitting the deck/armour of the ship on the other side and not having enough energy to penetrate the ship itself.  Thus the shell (unable to ricochet) arrests where it lands, inside the gun mount and it thus inflicts its listed shell damage to the module itself. 

 

Mouse thx for the responce.. but this is killing me.. i drive German bbs... going all full tilt t8 ranked and I get a wii... I'm thinking this poor turd is broadside at 10.. pow all 8.. wth 3 pens zero damage?.. let me reload and do it agin.. mean while hes draping me with damage.. pow 8 away agin... 4 pens yes!... no damae this clowns a hack! 7 registered full hits to him broadside and zero damage. This was last night btw and no one else sank him if its relevant. Let' just say with my temper I was more then a lil pissed bismark has a hard enough time in ranked nevermind shooting for 50 seconds and getring zero damage

[79bigred79]

My theorie is wg needs to rethink wth their doing with their damage models and armor models.. with all these new ships and messing around with things like Brit a he and French layered armor... they need to cease fire and freeze, go back to the drawing board..reset from ground zero what they want things to be and recheck their math and theories. Because from where I'm sitting ships is becoming broke.. if the player base can literally break down what' wrong.. and has access to the game code as some doo.. and then can figure out what's wrong in their spare time no less and not be paid while doing it. To me that means wargaming 1 you have zero excuses why not to fix this now and 2 I hope your happy people can lift up the skirt on your product then come back and tell me it' all because you did a half [edited]job of programmig... shame on you with your 15in guns taking out flak guns and no power left to do any damage? That' just half [edited]programmng and thats even if what is going on is true!I'm verry inclined to believe some of the commnity long before I believe it from dasha! I hope you get my point and feel my frustration wg.

[LittleWhiteMouse]

1 hour ago, 79bigred79 said:

Mouse thx for the responce.. but this is killing me.. i drive German bbs... going all full tilt t8 ranked and I get a wii... I'm thinking this poor turd is broadside at 10.. pow all 8.. wth 3 pens zero damage?.. let me reload and do it agin.. mean while hes draping me with damage.. pow 8 away agin... 4 pens yes!... no damae this clowns a hack! 7 registered full hits to him broadside and zero damage. This was last night btw and no one else sank him if its relevant. Let' just say with my temper I was more then a lil pissed bismark has a hard enough time in ranked nevermind shooting for 50 seconds and getring zero damage

Zero damage AP penetrations can be caused by two things:

1. Your shells penetrate an external module, like a main battery mount or a secondary mount with a turret (USN 127mm/38s being a classic example).
2. Your shells penetrate an external bit of "space" armour, like an anti-torpedo bulge, but fail to penetrate the ship's hull.

If your shells penetrate a turret or external barbette, they won't do damage to the ship's hit points, but will instead damage the gun mount.  This will give you a penetration ribbon but not necessarily a critical hit ribbon (you only get that if the gun is temporarily disabled) or a weapon destroyed ribbon (mounts can take a surprising amount of damage).

Similarly, your shells can strike an external piece of spaced armour but then bounce/shatter against the thicker steel underneath.  Classic examples of this are the anti-torpedo bulges on most battleships which are as little as 25mm, but behind them may be 300mm of steel or more.  If your shell penetrates the outer shell, you'll get a penetration ribbon, even if the shell stops against the hull undereneath and does zero damage.  French cruisers are particularly notorious for their large voids that can cause this.

[LittleWhiteMouse]

2 hours ago, Soshi_Sone said:

So.....if the kinetic energy of the shell is less than necessary to penetrate the deck armor beneath the mount, the kinetic energy delivered to the mount is "delivered" to the mount.  However, if the kinetic energy of the shell is more than necessary to penetrate the deck armor underneath the mount, then the kinetic energy delivered to the mount is "ignored".

Cowboy1:  "I shot him right through the heart...and he just kept on coming"

Comboy2: "Yeah, you have to get that bullet to stop IN the heart to be effective...going through...it's like you missed altogether.

Kinetic energy is simply used to check for penetration.  Where the shell stops dictates whether it's a penetration, over penetration or citadel penetration.  That's all it is.  Wherever an AP shell stops, that determines what it damages.  So it could pass clean through your magazines and citadel and burst on the other side beyond the citadel wall (but still inside the ship) and you'd get penetration damage to the ship and nothing done to the magazine.

[79bigred79]

At this point I don' realy care... the games broken.. played since launch... no fixes just exuses and more problems.. main gun rounds fly off into space... hit armor that no way in he'l should or could stop a main yet they do.. this titles going full 8 year old ps4 consol warror.. I just hope this is the last of the micro transaction games thats also play to win. Big red signing off for good.

[Shadowrigger1]

Probably the same wonky business as having 8 full pen no damages hits in 2 salvos .   These are even better than Detonations.

[bje2005]

I know this was from 2017 and is YEARS old but i have the answer. The modules on the ship are not in any way connected to the "health pool" of the ship. you can knock out every AA mount, secondary gun, main gun, and torpedo tube and still not do damage. This is because each module (except for rudder, and engine) have their own health pool. While you may not be penetrating the hull of the ship and causing damage to the health pool, you're still penetrating the modules and causing them to lose health which eventually destroys them. The main exceptions of this are the engine and rudder which are the only 2 modules to have unlimited health because it would be kinda broken to be able to completely knock out someone's engine or rudder and leave them unable to do anything. 

[Firewalk]

On 9/2/2017 at 10:26 AM, RipNuN2 said:

 

HE shells have an explosion radius which can knock out modules if it hits close enough to the ship. You see that alot against DD's as they have so little armor.

Not just HE shells but bombs too. Erich Löwenhardt is an easy test. Dropping two HE bombs that miss a DD somehow incap multiple modules and it always leaves me wondering what they incapacitated because the game doesn't tell.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

5 year old necro!  GG!