RN BB's were a mistake?

[Prkl8r]

The temperature of the community seems to be that RN BB's were a mistake. 

 

This is kinda of sad.

 

I think ever since the beta ~2 years ago, most people agreed this was the one line of ships that they could not f#$k up...but many of the community seems to think that they did in fact f*&k it up.

 

I've only played up to the Orion and the ships are very good, but they don't play how I want a BB to play at all. I'd be ok if they upped the HP, toned down the heal at high tiers, nerfed the HE, and buffed the AP, and gave them normal BB armor, and also nerf the concealment a bit. You know make them actual BB's sans the major gimmicks that they seemed to balance them on.

 

That's just my opinion though based on what I have heard from others, again, as I am only at Orion so far. 

 

What are other peoples opinions on what's wrong with the line and how to fix it without making them terrible?

[ValkyrWarframe]

The British battleships historically had a lot of the traits that result in what we have now.  For one, they always had huge HE bursting charges, and used a compound with more yield-per-unit-mass than TNT to boot, so it was, or at least should have been, expected that their HE would have astounding performance.

 

At the moment, the only mistake that WG has made is making these damn ships too OP, but the community really brought it upon themselves.  Virtually all of the tech tree ships are immune to citadels, they have the best stealth tier-for-tier or are close to it, better HE than T10 BBs at T4 and up, accuracy on-par with the Japanese, and the AP is short-fuzed so that it's less likely to overpen, thereby increasing its damage output when by all rights it should suck and be a counterweight to how stupid their HE is.  They gave these ships every advantage under the sun with no adequate tradeoff specifically because people kept telling them not to screw up the line.

 

WG originally minted the British BB armor models with the citadel extending all the way up to the main armor deck, usually resulting in skyscraper citadels like what we see on Nelson and pre-0.6.6 USN BBs.  People complained that this would make them bad without considering what could be done to offset such a disadvantage, and thus WG caved to pressure and lowered them, despite the fact that doing so would make them virtually inaccessible.  On top of this, they kept at their "glass cannon" approach to British battleships by giving them awesome HE that was further augmented in potency, adding AP with improved normalization and short fuzes, giving them cruiser-like concealment, and in many cases buffing the reload and turret traverse a ton.

 

They should have brought in a weak-ish line with the promise of close monitoring for possible buffs, or at least not been afraid to do so (their balancing department can and should do better than that).  Raised citadels could be offset by the improved repair party (something the USN BBs never had, while we have a national precedent in UK CLs) - WG could easily alter the recovery percentages to make them heal back more citadel damage than normal, and it wouldn't even take a 3-month ST period for them to narrow down at least a percentage range of citadel recovery that would be balanced.

[UltimateNewbie]

I haven't played them enough yet to be sure. But as a general principle, I think it is important to mix it up again - no point having just another USN line but not as good. I think that the very nature of RN BBs is that they would be bad in this game, because it doesn't account for numbers or date of introduction ( where the Royal Navy were first to bring in all big gun dreadnaughts, carriers etc, with greater endurance and they had more hulls etc). Imagine the cries if they brought in a weak line!

[Prkl8r]

1 minute ago, UltimateNewbie said:

I haven't played them enough yet to be sure. But as a general principle, I think it is important to mix it up again - no point having just another USN line but not as good. I think that the very nature of RN BBs is that they would be bad in this game, because it doesn't account for numbers or date of introduction ( where the Royal Navy were first to bring in all big gun dreadnaughts, carriers etc, with greater endurance and they had more hulls etc). Imagine the cries if they brought in a weak line!

I still do not understand why some people think every line needs to be vastly different. In WoT they didn't make each nations tanks vastly different by giving them fake gimmicks that they didn't actually have. German heavy tanks and american and Russian all still felt like heavy tanks even if they had slightly different playstyles based on the actual designs of the tanks. Nobody complains that tank lines are too samey.

 

I just don't see this argument in WoWs holding up.

[anonym_OlK73e329bMY]

They seem fine to me so far, though I've only played a little of my Orion and Iron Duke.

[Kapitan_Wuff]

I have only played the first 3 a few times. Seem alright so far. Just cause there are a few people crying loudly doesn't mean anything, there are always people crying about something.

[Prkl8r]

1 minute ago, Kapitan_Wuff said:

I have only played the first 3 a few times. Seem alright so far. Just cause there are a few people crying loudly doesn't mean anything, there are always people crying about something.

It does kind of remind me of beta when people were crying about CVs and DDs ruining the game...then again CVs got massively Nerfed....

 

 

[Cirdane]

They are new and use different strategies atm. Wait and see if effective game play to counter them is developed before crying for nerfs. All ship lines seem to do well at first before people get wise to the new tricks, maybe bow camping will be history,  and fire prevention skills just got a whole lot more valubal.

 

[AngryLou]

I can't citadel these things. I can't wait to go up this line myself. I am going to follow this post.

[AngryLou]

17 minutes ago, Prkl8r said:

I still do not understand why some people think every line needs to be vastly different. In WoT they didn't make each nations tanks vastly different by giving them fake gimmicks that they didn't actually have. German heavy tanks and american and Russian all still felt like heavy tanks even if they had slightly different playstyles based on the actual designs of the tanks. Nobody complains that tank lines are too samey.

 

I just don't see this argument in WoWs holding up.

This........

[stockmankrause]

Mistake as big as the zeppelin release thats what the british bbs are on release.

[GrandAdmiral_2016]

The gimmick that makes RN BBs vulnerable is short ranged main armament. You can shoot at them for a long time before they can shoot back at you, especially if your DDs, CAs, CVs and CLs do their spotting jobs. King George V is outranged by Gneisenau, Scharnhorst, Bayern New Mexico, Arizona, Dunkerque, Fuso, Nagato, Mutsu, Kongo, North Carolina, Bismarck, and almost all other higher tier BBs with the Aiming Module upgrade installed, even when using the spotter aircraft. She is going to be seriously handicapped when uptiered and stealth is her only savior, the one thing that will allow her to get in range and pound you to death. You will not be able to camp with these BBs, and their health pool precludes brawling until the enemy is worn down. The miracle heal does not compensate for this either. The T3 to T5 BBs are comparable to those of the other nations at their tier range-wise with a lower health pool and side armor that makes them soft targets. Even Texas outranges a KGV, which is two tiers higher. I have heard enough about bad balance in this thread to turn me off completely. The range on Warspite was and is a pet peeve of mine, but given the damage she can dish out once she does get in range, I can live with it. Same for the rest of the line. These ships are not OP by any measure. If they cannot shoot far, at least they should be able to hit hard when they get in range. I cannot say I am in love with any RN ship given the way they have balanced them for gameplay, but mine are going to be my chief instrument of punishment, since the country I live in has no ships of its's own, most of which were RN types, in the game at all!

[poeticmotion]

You people are hilarious. This is the least gimmicky line WoWS has introduced in over a year. No wacky consumables, no weird characteristics...a slightly better heal and a slight rebalancing of HE vs AP performance. And instead you post this [edited] whining because they're not exactly like every other [edited]BB. 

1 hour ago, Prkl8r said:

they don't play how I want a BB to play at all. I'd be ok if they upped the HP, toned down the heal at high tiers, nerfed the HE, and buffed the AP, and gave them normal BB armor, and also nerf the concealment a bit. You know make them actual BB's sans the major gimmicks that they seemed to balance them on.

LOL. You just described USN BBs. If you want to play a USN BB, go play a USN BB. Stop whining because the line is different; as someone who's been playing for two years, having differences in lines keeps my interest up. And the RN BBs are a textbook example of how to differentiate a line without relying on "gimmicks," which WG did probably because so many players whine about gimmicky lines (the chief example being RN CLs, which I love but a lot of players whine a lot about.)

 

Honestly, the whining about RN cruisers probably caused this...there's a massive RN fan base in this game and WG knew they needed to placate all the people who were so upset about RN cruisers being 'gimmicky.' They didn't want to risk having the RN fans get pissed off about two lines in a row. 

I think they'll probably get nerfed a bit at some point if they continue to perform at current levels, but I'm enjoying the hell out of them until then.
 

1 hour ago, Prkl8r said:

What are other peoples opinions on what's wrong with the line and how to fix it without making them terrible?

Nice leading question, but I'll answer anyway. What's wrong with this line? Nothing, what's actually wrong is the part of the player base that you represent. 

 

[Montana_Prussian]

Only played a few matches in them,but I don't see a problem.

[Prkl8r]

9 minutes ago, poeticmotion said:

You people are hilarious. This is the least gimmicky line WoWS has introduced in over a year. No wacky consumables, no weird characteristics...a slightly better heal and a slight rebalancing of HE vs AP performance. And instead you post this [edited] whining because they're not exactly like every other [edited]BB. 

LOL. You just described USN BBs. If you want to play a USN BB, go play a USN BB. Stop whining because the line is different; as someone who's been playing for two years, having differences in lines keeps my interest up. And the RN BBs are a textbook example of how to differentiate a line without relying on "gimmicks," which WG did probably because so many players whine about gimmicky lines (the chief example being RN CLs, which I love but a lot of players whine a lot about.)

 

Honestly, the whining about RN cruisers probably caused this...there's a massive RN fan base in this game and WG knew they needed to placate all the people who were so upset about RN cruisers being 'gimmicky.' They didn't want to risk having the RN fans get pissed off about two lines in a row. 

I think they'll probably get nerfed a bit at some point if they continue to perform at current levels, but I'm enjoying the hell out of them until then.
 

Nice leading question, but I'll answer anyway. What's wrong with this line? Nothing, what's actually wrong is the part of the player base that you represent. 

 

Way to take an opinion and reply with a personal insult. 

 

Thinking there is nothing wrong with them is a perfectly valid opinion to have, but if you think they are overprinting and you admit that, you must think they are going to get nerfed, what do you think will be nerfed?

[poeticmotion]

Just now, Prkl8r said:

Way to take an opinion and reply with a personal insult. 

 

Thinking there is nothing wrong with them is a perfectly valid opinion to have, but if you think they are overprinting and you admit that, you must think they are going to get nerfed, what do you think will be nerfed?

Fire chance. Maybe some citadel adjustments because they eat regular pens like crazy but seem hard to citadel. 

Sorry you took it as a personal insult, but I stand behind what I said. You're entitled to your opinion, though, even though it's wrong and you should be ashamed for having it. 

[Prkl8r]

1 minute ago, poeticmotion said:

Fire chance. Maybe some citadel adjustments because they eat regular pens like crazy but seem hard to citadel. 

Sorry you took it as a personal insult, but I stand behind what I said. You're entitled to your opinion, though, even though it's wrong and you should be ashamed for having it. 

Fair enough.

 

LoL, I'm going to take that second part as a joke regardless of how you meant it. 

[poeticmotion]

1 minute ago, Prkl8r said:

Fair enough.

 

LoL, I'm going to take that second part as a joke regardless of how you meant it. 

Good. Was intended as a joke. I'm not a total jerk, usually. ;)

[Battlecruiser_Amagi]

speak for urself. they seem fine to me.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

2 hours ago, ValkyrWarframe said:

 

They should have brought in a weak-ish line with the promise of close monitoring for possible buffs, or at least not been afraid to do so (their balancing department can and should do better than that).  Raised citadels could be offset by the improved repair party (something the USN BBs never had, while we have a national precedent in UK CLs) - WG could easily alter the recovery percentages to make them heal back more citadel damage than normal, and it wouldn't even take a 3-month ST period for them to narrow down at least a percentage range of citadel recovery that would be balanced.

 

Completely disagree.  Bring in a nerfed line and you'd get the German DDs.  The line is a failure and despite the removal of Stealth Fire, the nerfing of USN & IJN DD Guns to have gun bloom, etc, numerous changes to bring the IJN & USN lines closer to German DD levels, people haven't bought off on playing German DDs.  After numerous months since their release, people still aren't giving German DDs the time of day.

 

Why would someone want to work on a garbage ship line except if they were a 'boo for that nationality?

 

Why would I invest time, resources into a garbage line in hope for a future buff?  So that something weak like New Orleans gets a "buff" so that they're still garbage for their tier?

[Prkl8r]

22 minutes ago, Battlecruiser_Amagi said:

speak for urself. they seem fine to me.

I'm not even advocating that they need a nerf, I only just unlocked Iron Duke, but the general ferver of the community made me assume they are going to get nerfed. I just hope it's not in a way that makes them terrible.

 

While I would have prefered a medium range brawler line, I'm OK with what we have if it doesn't get nerfed to the point of uselessness. Well, assuming it doesn't go horribly south after Iron Duke that is, as again, that is as far as I personally have gotten.

[Ju87s]

2 hours ago, Kapitan_Wuff said:

I have only played the first 3 a few times. Seem alright so far. Just cause there are a few people crying loudly doesn't mean anything, there are always people crying about something.

It's not about playing the ship at the moment, it's about playing against them.  I had a conqueror broadside to me in my GK at about 12km.  Couldn't land a single citadel on it in 3 salvos.  I however was rekt by the HE- not just the fires it started, but the alpha damage from it.  I can't speak for the T7s T8s or T9s of the line because I haven't really seen enough (or I think any of them besides the T7) in battle on the enemy team, but the Conqueror definitely needs a raised citadel like the Nelson's if they're gonna give it crazy heals.

[Tiracel]

I think they are fine.

And when they realize that every cruiser, 150mmIFHE and 200mm, penns them from bow to aft without that 40-50mm deck...

you NEED that good concealment and repair party. ;-)

[Raptor_alcor]

4 hours ago, Prkl8r said:

It does kind of remind me of beta when people were crying about CVs and DDs ruining the game...then again CVs got massively Nerfed....

 

 

I'm still sad people are so stupid they honestly believe what anyone but the RU community says means anything except when it comes to money and premium warships.  Consider how long people on the NA forums were prodding for USN cruisers to get the long standing and well deserved buff. 

[kid_next_door_]

5 hours ago, ValkyrWarframe said:

The British battleships historically had a lot of the traits that result in what we have now.  For one, they always had huge HE bursting charges, and used a compound with more yield-per-unit-mass than TNT to boot, so it was, or at least should have been, expected that their HE would have astounding performance.

 

At the moment, the only mistake that WG has made is making these damn ships too OP, but the community really brought it upon themselves.  Virtually all of the tech tree ships are immune to citadels, they have the best stealth tier-for-tier or are close to it, better HE than T10 BBs at T4 and up, accuracy on-par with the Japanese, and the AP is short-fuzed so that it's less likely to overpen, thereby increasing its damage output when by all rights it should suck and be a counterweight to how stupid their HE is.  They gave these ships every advantage under the sun with no adequate tradeoff specifically because people kept telling them not to screw up the line.

 

WG originally minted the British BB armor models with the citadel extending all the way up to the main armor deck, usually resulting in skyscraper citadels like what we see on Nelson and pre-0.6.6 USN BBs.  People complained that this would make them bad without considering what could be done to offset such a disadvantage, and thus WG caved to pressure and lowered them, despite the fact that doing so would make them virtually inaccessible.  On top of this, they kept at their "glass cannon" approach to British battleships by giving them awesome HE that was further augmented in potency, adding AP with improved normalization and short fuzes, giving them cruiser-like concealment, and in many cases buffing the reload and turret traverse a ton.

 

They should have brought in a weak-ish line with the promise of close monitoring for possible buffs, or at least not been afraid to do so (their balancing department can and should do better than that).  Raised citadels could be offset by the improved repair party (something the USN BBs never had, while we have a national precedent in UK CLs) - WG could easily alter the recovery percentages to make them heal back more citadel damage than normal, and it wouldn't even take a 3-month ST period for them to narrow down at least a percentage range of citadel recovery that would be balanced.

I think WG has set a precedent that every new BB line will be a power creep, BBs are the most anticipated lines and the various nation fanboys/girls need to be satisfied even if it risks ruining the whole game. I am not going to say i know for a fact WG put this line out because "people kept telling them not the skrew up the line" but the outrage on the forums would have been there much more than it was there when they released sub-par German DD line.

 

This BB line is going to be the end of this game, and I don't say this lightly. WG will have a honeymoon period for a few weeks but once player realize that none of the high tier BBs even have a chance against Lion or Conquerer its going to be a slow decay. WG can fix this, and I hope they do. If the only alternative is nerfing them into uselessness, I would take that to save this game.

 

There have been a lot of changes in Warships that I have not been a fan of, but this really goes against all the fundamentals of the game.