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CaptGodzillaPig

DD and Cruiser Folks, How would you have "your" BB play?

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2 hours ago, Shadeylark said:

People need to get over this idea that a bbs job is to tank.

 

To be a tank you need more than armor and health... you need a way of forcing the enemy to shoot you instead of the squishies.  (Anyone who used to play that other WoW game back in the day should remember how pallies had armor and hp, but made [edited] tanks because they couldn't hold aggro and force the big bads to ignore the squishy damage dealers... you can't be an effective tank, no matter how hard it is to kill you, if you can't force the enemy to waste his time trying to kill you instead of softer targets)

 

Until wg implements aggro and aggro control tools, there is no such thing as a tank in this game.  There are just damage dealing classes with different tools to help them deal damage.

 

Tldr it's not a bbs job to soak up damage for the team because bbs possess no ability to actually force the enemy to shoot at them.

[edited].

 

You can't force the enemy to shoot at you, true, but the rest of what you say is [edited].  If you, as a BB, say "I can't force the enemy to shoot me, so I'll just stay in the back" you have just forced the enemy to not shoot you.

 

If you present yourself as a viable target a significant portion of the incoming fire will be directed to you instead of your smaller allies.  It doesn't matter if it is stupid for the enemy to do this, it will still happen.  Tanking in the context of WoWS is not about forcing the enemy to shoot you like a tank class in WoW, it is about drawing some of the fire off of your allies by being present and a threat.

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When the match starts, my DD is going to head immediately to a capture point - ideally one that was discussed before the match started.  Once there, I'm probably going to run into an enemy DD.  At that point there's a lot of possibilities.  If he has cruisers pushing aggressively behind him, I'm probably in trouble, even if I lay smoke, because they'll radar me and bring the pain.  If I have a battleship that has closed the distance to the point where he can get some secondary hits in, or if he can land even one main battery salvo (even if he had AP loaded), then I'm probably going to win.  If neither of us are supported it's a crap shoot.

 

The whole match can hinge on that initial DD encounter.  If we destroy the enemy DD, I can start threatening the battleships behind him with torpedoes and HE spam while you engage them in a gunnery duel.  Even if we only drive off the DD, that means we capture the point and now they're under pressure to do something rash to get back in the game.  Conversely if I am destroyed or forced to retreat it's problems for you.

 

I do play on a battleship enough to understand I can't just ask you to steam full speed into the cap, but if we can find a middle ground where you're close enough to support me but still able to protect yourself, we're going to do well.  The fact that you can hit enemy yamatos from 25km away isn't as helpful at the start of the game as you might think.  You're not going to hit a DD I'm fighting in the cap at that range.  

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2 hours ago, Spyde said:

Why do people hate BB's at times ?

 

What people complain about.

1: When you see Battleship's ignore shooting at DD's.

2: When you see Battleships go off to the side flanking..    Going to the side cap.. then going even on past it... 

3: Battleships that set so far back they shoot from 15km+ The Entire game... Then 3/4 your team is dead.. and they are still in the far back with full HP.

 

 

What People want.

1: Shoot at Destroyers..  Shoot at them from 12-14km and closer... Your gun arcs are good enough to hit them well.   Even a 2k volley against a DD puts pressure on him to move back because... oh crap... people are gonna focus me... This gives your DD's a better chance to push up and cap.

2:  If there is A/B/C Cap.   Do not send your BB to the far right of C cap.. Try to stay between B/C  or in the middle range of C.   Going far to the side may help win the cap.. but after that.. you are out of position.. and your not supporting B.

3: Move up!.  No i am not saying charge in and die.   go for a mid range if you have full hp.. and your team is getting pounded.. move up and draw some fire. (not saying yolo.. Not saying put yourself in a position to get focused)

Agree with most of this, especially the DD part.  I won't generally lob shells at DD's at 14k, unless there are no other targets around, as that is generally a wasted salvo that could have done damage to a CA or BB.  Not that it isn't a useful thing, but just a very low percentage shot for a wide dispersed KM ship.  Maybe in a IJN BB with laser guns at that range,  sure.

 

My jumping off point in your post is going to the middle to start.  On most maps, a BB anywhere near the middle of that map at the start of the game is nothing but a giant bullseye for every HE shell that could possibly get lobbed at it.  You will simply just burn to the water line right there.  If the map affords some cover in the middle, ok... Proceed with caution.  BB's at a side cap can usually serve a dual purpose in that they can project power at that cap AND still have the range to cover the adjacent.    Running middle to start is a general no-no that I learned a long time ago unless I just want to go take a smoke break while the rest of the game plays out.  I usually have hard enough time trying to live through a game without willingly turning myself into a piñata for every red ship on the map to beat on. 

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The average WoWs player has no idea where to sail to start the match and generally doesn't understand how to read the minimap throughout the match which is really the fundamental issue regarding positioning.

When to push, hold, and kite.. that's just way too advanced and usually they make the wrong choice at the wrong time. 

Asking an average WoWs player  "what was your plan" after they make said choice... is a waste of time.

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The way I play battleships: Not on the back line, not sniping ineffectively at max range, not basically removing themselves from the match, and not whining that their cruisers and destroyers are worthless when their own actions are the reason their destroyers and cruisers got mulched by the enemy.

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Honestly, I think CV drivers probably get the most salt of anybody. I think the hallmark of a good BB driver is knowing not only how to play his ship, but also he has instincts on were and when to push and where or when not to. He communicates well where he needs his supporting ships and what his intentions are beforehand. I also think that the best ones also play quite a bit of other classes, especially DD's................Positioning is everything.........He doesnt run off alone, plays his ship to its strengths and plays for the objective...................

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6 hours ago, AlcatrazNC said:

When i'm playing CA i expect BB to shoot and take shells for me as i start fire . I expect them to shoot the designated target when i need (except if they have to protect their broadside or if a DD show up near him)

And how, pray tell, is a BB supposed to do that? This aint like World of Warcraft where a Tank Warrior can taunt a opponent into attacking him, and that only works against bots. A BB CANNOT GRAB AGGRO! You should know that the opposition is going to target the ship that's easier to kill. In my case, As a Cruiser and BB player, the only time I'm targeting a BB over a Cruiser is if there's no Cruiser to target.

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2 hours ago, CaptGodzillaPig said:

Agree with most of this, especially the DD part.  I won't generally lob shells at DD's at 14k, unless there are no other targets around, as that is generally a wasted salvo that could have done damage to a CA or BB.  Not that it isn't a useful thing, but just a very low percentage shot for a wide dispersed KM ship.  Maybe in a IJN BB with laser guns at that range,  sure.

 

My jumping off point in your post is going to the middle to start.  On most maps, a BB anywhere near the middle of that map at the start of the game is nothing but a giant bullseye for every HE shell that could possibly get lobbed at it.  You will simply just burn to the water line right there.  If the map affords some cover in the middle, ok... Proceed with caution.  BB's at a side cap can usually serve a dual purpose in that they can project power at that cap AND still have the range to cover the adjacent.    Running middle to start is a general no-no that I learned a long time ago unless I just want to go take a smoke break while the rest of the game plays out.  I usually have hard enough time trying to live through a game without willingly turning myself into a piñata for every red ship on the map to beat on. 

 

I think you misunderstood. He didn't mean rush the middle of the map, just position yourself so that you can support multiple caps effectively, and not take yourself out of the fight if the enemy ends up being somewhere other than you expected.

 

4 hours ago, Helstrem said:

 

If you present yourself as a viable target a significant portion of the incoming fire will be directed to you instead of your smaller allies.  It doesn't matter if it is stupid for the enemy to do this, it will still happen.  Tanking in the context of WoWS is not about forcing the enemy to shoot you like a tank class in WoW, it is about drawing some of the fire off of your allies by being present and a threat.

 

The survivability that makes BBs suitable for drawing fire also hinders there chances of doing so.

 

If I'm in a BB or CA, I know I'm not taking out that "tanking" BB in a timely fashion. That CA spitting fire at me? I can possibly take him out in 1 salvo, or at least scare him off. I'm going to do that (at least for 2-3 salvoes) before I go after the BB.

 

Now, if I'm in a DD, different story. "Tanking" BB is a bigger and closer torp target, and if he's in close to my teammates as well, avoiding my torps is all that more likely to give one of them a broadside shot.

 

Also, if you can't brawl, don't try. As a teammate, I'd rather see you laying down fire from midrange, than running in close, and getting hung up on a sunk ship or island, or eating a face full of torps, or getting rammed, because you were out of your depth. I avoid getting closer than about 6km (and am more comfortable at 10km) precisely for that reason, as well as limiting my options maneuver-wise.

 

Having said that, I'm not going to hang out at 16+km, because I know my effectiveness isn't consistent from that far out.

Edited by Skpstr

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28 minutes ago, ReddNekk said:

And how, pray tell, is a BB supposed to do that? This aint like World of Warcraft where a Tank Warrior can taunt a opponent into attacking him, and that only works against bots. A BB CANNOT GRAB AGGRO! You should know that the opposition is going to target the ship that's easier to kill. In my case, As a Cruiser and BB player, the only time I'm targeting a BB over a Cruiser is if there's no Cruiser to target.

 

By being close enough to be an unignorable threat due to your massive guns and equally massive armor penetration.

 

If you're always camping at 18km, no wonder you don't think battleships "grab aggro". You're using your cruisers as a shield.

Edited by AraAragami

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29 minutes ago, ReddNekk said:

And how, pray tell, is a BB supposed to do that? This aint like World of Warcraft where a Tank Warrior can taunt a opponent into attacking him, and that only works against bots. A BB CANNOT GRAB AGGRO! You should know that the opposition is going to target the ship that's easier to kill. In my case, As a Cruiser and BB player, the only time I'm targeting a BB over a Cruiser is if there's no Cruiser to target.

 

Sometimes that close-up BB is a nice target though, especially if you can spam AP into his superstructure for 5-7k damage every 6-8 seconds.

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A pure focus on rock (BB), paper (DD), scissors (CL) damage penalties/bonuses and hit rates ... with CV's set to a jack of all trades master of none, hit rates (with no manual drops).

 

But then casuals wouldn't want to play and the game would die.

 

Edited by Hydra_360ci

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3 minutes ago, AraAragami said:

 

By being close enough to be an unignorable threat due to your massive guns and equally massive armor penetration.

 

If you're always camping at 18km, no wonder you don't think battleships "grab aggro". You're using your cruisers as a shield.

 

It really depends on the players involved. If I'm in a BB, and a CA is dropping 3-5k worth of HE on me every 7 seconds, that's more dangerous than a closer BB that I can angle against, and maybe take a couple pens, a couple overpens, and some bounces every 30 seconds.

 

Plus, every salvo shot at the CA has a decent chance of negating that threat completely, (by deletion) whereas it's going to take longer to get rid of that BB, especially if he angles properly against me as well.

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52 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

 

It really depends on the players involved. If I'm in a BB, and a CA is dropping 3-5k worth of HE on me every 7 seconds, that's more dangerous than a closer BB that I can angle against, and maybe take a couple pens, a couple overpens, and some bounces every 30 seconds.

 

Plus, every salvo shot at the CA has a decent chance of negating that threat completely, (by deletion) whereas it's going to take longer to get rid of that BB, especially if he angles properly against me as well.


Depends on the battleship. Many players will focus a Yamato over a Zao if the Yamato is closer, because it's much harder to angle against those 46cm guns and a single mistake/a little luck on Yamato's part will end your game instantly. Vs the Zao having to spam at you for several minutes.

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10 minutes ago, AraAragami said:


Depends on the battleship. Many players will focus a Yamato over a Zao if the Yamato is closer, because it's much harder to angle against those 46cm guns and a single mistake/a little luck on Yamato's part will end your game instantly. Vs the Zao having to spam at you for several minutes.

 

Exactly. It's not as simple as throwing any random BB up front to draw fire in any situation.

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Just now, TheKrimzonDemon said:

Charge.

 

That words sums up my philosophy for all ships. If everyone did it, matches would be over faster and be a HECK of a lot more fun.

You sir win my up vote.  And Skip on a slightly lesser level, but still on point.

 

Last game I played, and we lost sorry to say, but in my GK I charged a cap we needed that was smoked.  Inside the smoke was 2 DD's and a Neptune. I knew that going in, and went right at them.  Neptune was raining holy hell on me, but it was all a glorious show and not much damage.  I caught him first sitting broad in the smoke..just idle.  Bye dude.  The DD's were slightly smarter and split to either side of me.  I got one with my seconds and just happened to keep the other one lit long enough for a following cruiser to take out.  I had to eat a torp wall, which between the flooding and the fires I had was the eventual end of me,  but that one run counted for 3 kills on the red team plus another luck Flesh Wound kill for me on a BB that I just happened to get a fire on with my seconds before I expired.   So yes.  CHARGE!  Rush the smoke. 

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I want my BBs to:

 

1)  have premium repair and dcp. run dreadnaught flag at the minimum as well as  dispersion camo.

2)  stay within 5km of cruiser/DD    or within 15km of enemy .   

3)  learn to turn away and kite if situation requires it, even if  you have to partly expose side.   learn to use cover to do this, but timing can reduce risks.        Do this at 12-15km distance, not brawling range. 

4) keep angled and keep firing unless you have to heal up.   then find cover, heal up and come back asap. 

5) learn to shoot.  don't be afraid of changing target if better shot comes up.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, AraAragami said:

By being close enough to be an unignorable threat due to your massive guns and equally massive armor penetration.

Maybe in your wishful world but not mine. Whether I'm driving a BB or CA, if I have a BB and a CA gunning me, I'm going to focus on the CA because I can remove that threat a lot more quickly than I can remove the BB. Of 2 immediate threats, one eliminates the EASIEST of the 2 first, so that you have fewer guns hammering you.

1 hour ago, AraAragami said:

If you're always camping at 18km, no wonder you don't think battleships "grab aggro". You're using your cruisers as a shield.

Maybe that's the way YOU play BBs, but not I. Stick with your precious DDs dear, because you don't seem to have a clue about driving BBs or Cruisers.

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Just now, ReddNekk said:

Maybe that's the way YOU play BBs, but not I. Stick with your precious DDs dear, because you don't seem to have a clue about driving BBs or Cruisers.

 

My survival rate says otherwise. Thanks for the baseless accusation. Just proves you have no actual argument.

Edited by AraAragami

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7 minutes ago, ReddNekk said:

Maybe in your wishful world but not mine. Whether I'm driving a BB or CA, if I have a BB and a CA gunning me, I'm going to focus on the CA because I can remove that threat a lot more quickly than I can remove the BB. Of 2 immediate threats, one eliminates the EASIEST of the 2 first, so that you have fewer guns hammering you.

Maybe that's the way YOU play BBs, but not I. Stick with your precious DDs dear, because you don't seem to have a clue about driving BBs or Cruisers.

Confused by this post.  So do you advocate the long range camping?  Because that was how that came off.  If you do,  Then I might have to politely disagree.

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Dude don't even get me started, People can't even follow the rules of the road at sea much less hold a formation or follow formation and corpen calls in this game.

When I have mentioned the above, I got called down and mocked for even suggesting it.

The only thing I ask for is room to work and I'll leave plenty of smoke behind for you to shoot out of and when I am charged back up I'll comeback and give you some more smoke.

And please stop the fing clicking on the map and crying because I don't want to jump into the middle of a "firepit" when I spot multiple red ships coming into the same cap I am.

I have glaucoma and when you all do that crap I have to max out my minimap so I can see wth is going on.

And luckily enough I don't have epilepsy because when you guys click away on the map in a panic all that flashing is enough to trip a seizure in somebody.

Edited by DESRON10

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2 minutes ago, DESRON10 said:

Dude don't even get me started, People can't even follow the rules of the road at sea much less hold a formation or follow formation and corpen calls in this game.

When I have mentioned the above, I got called down and mocked for even suggesting it.

The only thing I ask for is room to work and I'll leave plenty of smoke behind for you to shoot out of and when I am charged back up I'll comeback and give you some more smoke.

And please stop the fing clicking on the map and crying because I don't want to jump into the middle of a "firepit" when I spot multiple red ships coming into the same cap I am.

I have glaucoma and when you all do that crap I have to max out my minimap so I can see wth is going on.

And luckily enough I don't have epilepsy because when you guys click away on the map in a panic all that flashing is enough to trip a seizure in somebody.

DESRON 5 here back in the day.  I get y a.  Thanks for jumping in man.  I missed ya.  I can't say "squeak" here anymore without getting reported and a 2 day ban. 

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1 minute ago, awildpervert said:

idk i play the schornhorst like a cruiser...i dont like flame ships aka bbs

The Sharn is basically a cruiser and a plague on the game.  It needs to be deleted and anyone that claims any success in it should be put in a special place in hell.   Pretty sure that all Sharn drivers use the "gender neutral" bathrooms. 

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Just now, CaptGodzillaPig said:

The Sharn is basically a cruiser and a plague on the game.  It needs to be deleted and anyone that claims any success in it should be put in a special place in hell.   Pretty sure that all Sharn drivers use the "gender neutral" bathrooms. 

 

Still hating on the best example of the aggressive German battleship that exemplifies everything you previously said should be the pinnacle of battleship play?

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