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Venac

Pan-Asia Destroyer Deep Water Torps... good luck BB...

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If these stats stick and the guy got these stats from the dev blog i would say BB are in for some trouble. 

 

 

Edited by Venac
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No more trouble than we were before with regular torpedoes, even the damage is the same. The only difference now is that cruisers and destroyers can't be used as meat shields.

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I am going to make a guess based on previous changes that whatever happens, battleships will end up better off and destroyers will get nerfed.

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3 minutes ago, sulghunter331 said:

No more trouble than we were before with regular torpedoes, even the damage is the same. The only difference now is that cruisers and destroyers can't be used as meat shields.

The big difference is the detection range. These torps you will not see till they are almost hitting you. No chance to avoid. 

Edited by Venac

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As I understand, these Deep Water Torps will run just shallow enough to hit Cruisers as well as Battleships.  This will severely impact Cruisers because unlike Battleships, none of them can take torpedo hits.  They do not have the HP to absorb the damage, nor the Torpedo Defense ratings to mitigate the damage.  Most Cruisers don't even have Repair Party.

 

The only ships that don't worry about Deep Water Torps are Destroyers.

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1 minute ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

As I understand, these Deep Water Torps will run just shallow enough to hit Cruisers as well as Battleships.  This will severely impact Cruisers because unlike Battleships, none of them can take torpedo hits.  They do not have the HP to absorb the damage, nor the Torpedo Defense ratings to mitigate the damage.  Most Cruisers don't even have Repair Party.

 

The only ships that don't worry about Deep Water Torps are Destroyers.

This is my understanding also. We shall see soon enough. 

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Knowing just the detection doesn't really tell us anything. I'm assuming they'll be around the same speed as other torps, but we need to know to make any reasonable assessment anyways.

 

Conceptually, I don't think they'll really change anything. They'll just be an excuse to give a gunboat better than average torps without allowing them to use them against other DDs. People that already get dumpstered by DD torps will just use them as a way to externalize the blame for their failures but otherwise I don't think they'll shake the meta up too much unless they have something else going for them (very high speed, very long range, cannot be spotted from the air etc).

 

They offer no benefit against people that maneuver evasively out of good habit.

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11 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

As I understand, these Deep Water Torps will run just shallow enough to hit Cruisers as well as Battleships.  This will severely impact Cruisers because unlike Battleships, none of them can take torpedo hits.  They do not have the HP to absorb the damage, nor the Torpedo Defense ratings to mitigate the damage.  Most Cruisers don't even have Repair Party.

 

The only ships that don't worry about Deep Water Torps are Destroyers.

 

Well that's a hard veto from me then. Only .8km warning that saps off 22k of a cruiser? They better only hit the very middle between the stacks and under everything else because that would keep me back with the battleships the whole match.

Edited by Stonehammers

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23 minutes ago, Venac said:

The big difference is the detection range. These torps you will not see till they are almost hitting you. No chance to avoid. 

Also, if cruisers and DDs can't be hit by these things, these DD will almost exclusively fire these at BBs.  So there's that.

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16 minutes ago, vonluckner said:

Knowing just the detection doesn't really tell us anything. I'm assuming they'll be around the same speed as other torps, but we need to know to make any reasonable assessment anyways.

 

Conceptually, I don't think they'll really change anything. They'll just be an excuse to give a gunboat better than average torps without allowing them to use them against other DDs. People that already get dumpstered by DD torps will just use them as a way to externalize the blame for their failures but otherwise I don't think they'll shake the meta up too much unless they have something else going for them (very high speed, very long range, cannot be spotted from the air etc).

 

They offer no benefit against people that maneuver evasively out of good habit.

If anything, it MAY incentivize hydro usage over "take defensive AA on everything just in case of carriers".

I can't anticipate these torpedoes being particularly fast, but if they are slow then hydro is certainly a natural counter; literally 1% chance of landing a hit if detected by hydro, and that's only on ultra potatoes. They'll definitely see some usage against exceptionally defensive players if they have a good range, and potentially smoke campers, or those who literally can't stop themselves from sailing in a straight line, but in general unless they're on the speedier side, have long range, or reload really quickly, they won't perform better than regular torpedoes.

At least they won't be detected by planes as easily.

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13 minutes ago, SeraphicRadiance said:

If anything, it MAY incentivize hydro usage over "take defensive AA on everything just in case of carriers".

I can't anticipate these torpedoes being particularly fast, but if they are slow then hydro is certainly a natural counter; literally 1% chance of landing a hit if detected by hydro, and that's only on ultra potatoes. They'll definitely see some usage against exceptionally defensive players and potentially smoke campers, or those who literally can't stop themselves from sailing in a straight line, but in general unless they're on the speedier side, have long range, or reload really quickly, they won't perform better than regular torpedoes.

At least they won't be detected by planes as easily.

The preliminary stats on the T10 (Hsiang Yang, Taiwanese Allen M. Sumner) indicate they're 2kts faster than the torps on the Gearing, with 13.5 km range. That's a pretty sweet spot.. Right now it has 7km detection baseline, but I doubt that will ever make it through supertesting and it's probably not going to be able to contest caps like the Gearing.

https://thedailybounce.net/2017/08/10/hsiang-yang-tier-x-pan-asia-destroyer-details/

 

The problem with using it against cruisers is that with the exception of the Moskva, DM and Minotaur, most remain pretty mobile. A Cruiser sailing in open water that gets caught dead to rights by torps isn't playing very well to begin with. The listed depth of the torps is a problem to me since we have no way of knowing what's actually going to get hit other than by testing. It's probably going to be CAs and above will get hit, CLs down won't, but it won't be quite that simple as lower tier CAs (New Orleans and Mogami at least) have drafts shallow enough to avoid the depth of T10 DWTs.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, vonluckner said:

The preliminary stats on the T10 (Hsiang Yang, Taiwanese Allen M. Sumner) indicate they're 2kts faster than the torps on the Gearing, with 13.5 km range. That's a pretty sweet spot.. Right now it has 7km detection baseline, but I doubt that will ever make it through supertesting and it's probably not going to be able to contest caps like the Gearing.

https://thedailybounce.net/2017/08/10/hsiang-yang-tier-x-pan-asia-destroyer-details/

 

The problem with using it against cruisers is that with the exception of the Moskva, DM and Minotaur, most remain pretty mobile. A Cruiser sailing in open water that gets caught dead to rights by torps isn't playing very well to begin with. The listed depth of the torps is a problem to me since we have no way of knowing what's actually going to get hit other than by testing. It's probably going to be CAs and above will get hit, CLs down won't, but it won't be quite that simple as lower tier CAs (New Orleans and Mogami at least) have drafts shallow enough to avoid the depth of T10 DWTs.

 

 

They'd certainly be potentially good BB assassins if the torpedoes went live with those stats, and yes, there's no way the ship will go live with that concealment rating.

Aiming torpedoes at cruisers is already a pipe dream with optimal cruiser play. These torpedoes won't stand a better chance at connecting with a cruiser more than a Z-52 or Gearing's torpedoes, simply because if you play a cruiser properly you're so damn evasive in the first place. The interesting question is what cruisers will they be allowed to arm against, but connecting with them at all will rely on luck and fluke hits, just like now, but with less chance of being detected early by planes as it travels.

IF you can sneak these torpedoes around a DD's path, or target BBs that are out of position/unsupported without them getting detected, then the BB drivers will have no hope to avoid them if perfectly aimed. They'll still not be more successful than normal torpedoes if the target knows you're there, but they are an extreme of the IJN torpedoboat playstyle; rewarding you if you can launch them when the target doesn't know they're in immediate torpedo danger. For that reason alone I can't imagine they'll go live in this state because of WG's fear of punishing BB misplays with deletion...if they aren't spotted by a plane/sonar, and are properly aimed at misplaying broadside BBs, they are pretty much guaranteed devastating strike'd. And they have the concealment to sneak around planes which have always been the bane of Shimakaze torpedoes. And the ship itself has the concealment to position itself to chunk out a BB if it really wants to, similar to the Shimakaze, only with the strength to outspot every other tier 10 DD in exchange for some speed to get to that position.

So yeah, I expect both tweaks to the torpedoes and the ship's concealment.

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Honestly, I think there are better ideas for this line than this.  

 

Could we get controllable torps?  =)  Changing direction while in the water. 

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picturing two destroyers, unleashing huge salvoes of torpedoes at eachother. ... which pass harmlessly underneath both and murder their teams behind them.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, SinisterSe7en said:

picturing two destroyers, unleashing huge salvoes of torpedoes at eachother. ... which pass harmlessly underneath both and murder their teams behind them.

 

 

 

Someone fitting Deep Water Torps isn't going to waste them on another DD that they know that's impossible to hit.

 

For the DD however, having no torps that cannot be used on another DD is a severe disadvantage.  The DD meta now is "F*ck guns" and use torps to delete the DD counterpart.  This is so because of DD gun bloom, detection, so torpedoes are the "go to" anti-DD weapon among DDs.  If you don't have that, well...

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1 hour ago, Shadow_NA said:

Have there been stats on the Pan-Asia DD? Are they gunboats or torp boats? 

 

 

It seems the line itself is a hybrid, with very different styled ships.  You have ex-Royal Navy DDs, USN DDs (Benson, Gearing, etc), DDs of Soviet design, etc.  As it stands right now, I imagine it to be a nightmare for captain development if you are working down the line.  The Tier VI one for example looks like An Shan.  Later DDs are USN DDs.  The captain builds between RU DD Gunboats and USN DDs are very different.

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3 hours ago, Venac said:

The big difference is the detection range. These torps you will not see till they are almost hitting you. No chance to avoid. 

 

So just like normal torpedoes then.

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2 minutes ago, Carl said:

 

So just like normal torpedoes then.

 

Far, far worse.  We're talking detection ranges about half of the current ones.  Instead of the typical 1.4-1.7km detection ranges for a number of torps, the Deep Water ones will be something like 0.8km or so.  Very, very little time to react, even for a Cruiser.

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Even a cruiser won't thread normal torps if she picks them up by normal torpedo detection.A NO only manages 28 degrees of turn in 7 seconds. It's not remotely enough unless it's a wide spread. 10 seconds increases this to 35 degrees, and unless you have vigilance or someone's using shima 20km torps thats the best you'll get without air spotting or hydro.

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 If this kind of torpedoes really do not hit enemy destroyers then you lose a massive threat when fighting your biggest counter - enemy destroyers.

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These torps might affect even more some heavy cruisers than BBs. 

 

Also they will incentive more passive plays from BBs and some cruisers.

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4 hours ago, Venac said:

The big difference is the detection range. These torps you will not see till they are almost hitting you. No chance to avoid. 

Not a bad thing, if you get hit by them you were being stupid and deserve to suffer IMO

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