Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 10 battles to post in this section.
GreyFox78659

Giving up of GZ

126 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

351
[GRFOX]
Members
2,242 posts
5,214 battles
1 hour ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

You mistake me.  My priority is to ensure there's a decent ship for the average gamer to play -- not some $60 turd that will take people's money and leaves them with a bad experience.  If you honestly believe Graf Zeppelin is fine in Randoms and Co-Op, well, that's definitely within your right to claim.  Data won't back you up, but that's never stopped people from making anecdote based arguments before.

See TOG II asterisk WOT not competitive at all fun as hell good seller. I think the only argument left is yeah she is priced to high for a not so serious premium and may need to be lowered a tier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,574
[AXANR]
Members
3,444 posts
19,057 battles
8 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

quibbles.

Not quibbles. It invalidates your primary supporting evidence. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,666
[90TH]
[90TH]
Alpha Tester
8,287 posts
9,171 battles
4 minutes ago, poeticmotion said:

Not quibbles. It invalidates your primary supporting evidence. 

How? All the statistics given of WR include battles of like vs like, Shokaku vs Shokaku for instance. As the comparison is made on equal grounds, the primary evidence is vaild. Nothing is hidden away. The sheer number of battles in such a short time (10k) over 5 days versus the number of battles for the Enterprise (40k) over 3 months... suggests not only did Graf Zep sell well, it is comparatively popular in pvp random battles. :cap_popcorn:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
351
[GRFOX]
Members
2,242 posts
5,214 battles
47 minutes ago, poeticmotion said:

But, as a German CV, I would imagine GZ sales were very high on European server comparatively, and played a lot because first weekend. So how many of those games had a GZ on each side where no matter which team won, a GZ would? 

You can't look at the opening weekend win rate on one server and say the ship isn't garbage. You're isolating one dataset without context. 

Wait she is a brand new carrier with a 49% win rate. (You got remember any ship has a learning curve) And lex is 46% that is data that shows the CCs were wrong right there. Lex players largely know it's in or have a guide to look up and Graf players don't.

Edited by GreyFox78659
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,666
[90TH]
[90TH]
Alpha Tester
8,287 posts
9,171 battles

6GADBWZ.gif

5 minutes ago, GreyFox78659 said:

Wait she is a brand new carrier with a 49% win rate. (You got remember any ship has a learning curve) And lex is 46% that is data that that show the CCs were wrong right there.

Are you, are you really, suggesting? Mein Gott! Sacre Bleu! La Terre est-elle ronde? うわ~!+1 for the being sufficiently contrarian to see through the bluster.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
351
[GRFOX]
Members
2,242 posts
5,214 battles
1 hour ago, gbgentry said:

 

Love ya LWM and stayed away from the GZ in part based on your recommendation but when the opponent is coordinated and has good aa bubbles/ships like nuttybuscuit described, "your only competition" is certainly Not the red CV.

Yeah that is so true AA tier is way more important than the carrier tier. It basically tells if the carrier is even a threat during the match. If see tier x AA I am just picking liners

Edited by GreyFox78659

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31,426
[WG-CC]
WoWS Community Contributors
10,817 posts
8,891 battles
1 hour ago, gbgentry said:

Love ya LWM and stayed away from the GZ in part based on your recommendation but when the opponent is coordinated and has good aa bubbles/ships like nuttybuscuit described, "your only competition" is certainly Not the red CV.

Anti-aircraft firepower is largely a static obstacle.  It's only rare ships like the occasional AA spec (lul) destroyer and specific cruisers that can perform anti-aircraft ambushes against a carrier (most notably but not limited to Flint, Atlanta and Minotaur).  All other AA firepower is clearly visible and can be managed, leaving it down to a CV's target selection to engage enemies.  Player actions on the part of the ships in question is nominally quite passive, being limited to whether or not to activate a Defensive Fire consumable and which enemy aircraft they focus with their flak batteries.

Enemy carriers, on the other hand, represent an active obstacle to air dominance (so long as they're not a Strike Lexington).  More so than any other ship type, carriers must pay attention and contend with their opposite number on the enemy team.  Load into a game with a battleship (for example) and you may or may not have to deal with the enemy battleship that's populated on the enemy team opposite you.  In fact, you've got pretty decent odds of being able to avoid directly engaging them.  Carriers do not have this luxury.  Their planes will go head to head with enemy planes.  Thus, how a carrier operates in a head to head engagement is of paramount importance and is one of those balance considerations that must be considered.  Graf Zeppelin is the poorest of the tier 8 CVs in this regard (again, ignoring Strike Lexington).

If you do want to consider AA firepower an obstacle, then Graf demonstrates its losing performance there too.  Her strike planes have the lowest functional hit points of any of the tier 8 air groups, meaning she takes casualties faster than any other tier 8 carrier which further hampers her already lackluster strike performance.

So what is Graf Zeppelin good at, exactly?  What does she do even reasonably well?  Shoot ships with secondaries?

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,666
[90TH]
[90TH]
Alpha Tester
8,287 posts
9,171 battles
19 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Anti-aircraft firepower is largely a static obstacle.  It's only rare ships like the occasional AA spec (lul) destroyer and specific cruisers that can perform anti-aircraft ambushes against a carrier (most notably but not limited to Flint, Atlanta and Minotaur).  All other AA firepower is clearly visible and can be managed, leaving it down to a CV's target selection to engage enemies.  Player actions on the part of the ships in question is nominally quite passive, being limited to whether or not to activate a Defensive Fire consumable and which enemy aircraft they focus with their flak batteries.

Enemy carriers, on the other hand, represent an active obstacle to air dominance (so long as they're not a Strike Lexington).  More so than any other ship type, carriers must pay attention and contend with their opposite number on the enemy team.  Load into a game with a battleship (for example) and you may or may not have to deal with the enemy battleship that's populated on the enemy team opposite you.  In fact, you've got pretty decent odds of being able to avoid directly engaging them.  Carriers do not have this luxury.  Their planes will go head to head with enemy planes.  Thus, how a carrier operates in a head to head engagement is of paramount importance and is one of those balance considerations that must be considered.  Graf Zeppelin is the poorest of the tier 8 CVs in this regard (again, ignoring Strike Lexington).

If you do want to consider AA firepower an obstacle, then Graf demonstrates its losing performance there too.  Her strike planes have the lowest functional hit points of any of the tier 8 air groups, meaning she takes casualties faster than any other tier 8 carrier which further hampers her already lackluster strike performance.

So what is Graf Zeppelin good at, exactly?  What does she do even reasonably well?  Shoot ships with secondaries?

Why would anyone send tier 8 fighters to attack tier 10 AA cruisers ? Against AA cruisers of the same tier, perhaps, to strafe them, but it is often safer and more useful to let other players diminish the red's secondaries for you, bide your time and attack the cruisers and Bbs with strong AA suites when they have already taken dmg.

Quote

In fact, you've got pretty decent odds of being able to avoid directly engaging them.  Carriers do not have this luxury.  Their planes will go head to head with enemy planes.

I don't? Pretty sure that if faced with an air sup Enterprise or Lexington I am careful to avoid engaging their fighters except in home territory, within range of friendly 'green' AA cruisers and similar. As far as I can tell, that is common sense, which many Carrier players seem to employ. Like a game of checkers, the trick is in waiting for an advantage, catching the enemy off guard, lead them into a trap. You see, we are not all Bots.

Quote

Her strike planes have the lowest functional hit points of any of the tier 8 air groups, meaning she takes casualties faster than any other tier 8 carrier which further hampers her already lackluster strike performance.

This only matters in battles when sending t8 strike dbs to attack tier 10 battle groups with an AA bubble. Which is suicidal, and a CV player who does this, deserves to lose their planes to AA fire.

Quote

So what is Graf Zeppelin good at, exactly?  What does she do even reasonably well?  Shoot ships with secondaries?

Speaking with in game experience of the in game iteration of Graf Zep (do you have any by the way?^^), without regard to the wiki stats (which contain major discrepancies as compared to the in game version), the Graf Zep does several things reasonably well, with the HE loadout, a) DD hunting, b) BB torture c) firestarter

The secondaries are not in fact very good, their range according to the in game client being 6.6km without AFT or other secondary range boosting mod. Which again begs the question..

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[LHG]
Members
2,224 posts
6,090 battles
On 8/29/2017 at 8:26 AM, GreyFox78659 said:

Turned in the ticket to swap her out. To bad wasn't her fault but the bad press is to much for me take anymore.

 

This is just ... sad.  Makes me wish I had the GZ in my port just so I could tell all these losers where to get off and what form of transportation they should use to get there. Other players in the game should have no influence on the ship that you decide that you want to play ... period.  

You take your ship and you fight your ships and you use the resources you have, not cry about the things you wish you had. 

Just way too much stuffs like this going around.  

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31,426
[WG-CC]
WoWS Community Contributors
10,817 posts
8,891 battles
26 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

Why would anyone send tier 8 fighters to attack tier 10 AA cruisers ?

They wouldn't.  They'd get ambushed by them.

If you don't know what an active AA ship is, it's a cruiser that uses its excellent aerial detection range (and good surface detection rnage) that keeps its AA guns turned off until the enemy carrier's planes are within its umbrella.  It then goes "live" activating AA power to gut squadrons within its radius.  This diminishes fighter reserves and can annihilate entire attack-craft waves before the threat is even recognized.  This leaves the carrier player (particularly an inattentive one) very little time to recover their planes from the AA bubble.  This is one of the most effective ways to play an anti-aircraft interdictor.  Here's some stats:

  • Maximum Minotaur AA Range:  8.6km.
  • Minimum Minotaur Aerial Detection Range:  7.2km.
  • Maximum Atlanta & Flint AA Range:  7.2km
  • Minimum Atlanta & Flint Aerial Detection Range:  5.6km

Other cruisers can pull this off, but between a large surface or aerial detection range, they have a much harder time sneaking up on enemy planes and causing havoc.

40 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

I don't? Pretty sure that if faced with an air sup Enterprise or Lexington I am careful to avoid engaging their fighters except in home territory, within range of friendly 'green' AA cruisers and similar. As far as I can tell, that is common sense, which many Carrier players seem to employ. Like a game of checkers, the trick is in waiting for an advantage, catching the enemy off guard, lead them into a trap. You see, we are not all Bots.

Thus surrendering scouting and vision control to the enemy CV.

41 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

This only matters in battles when sending t8 strike dbs to attack tier 10 battle groups with an AA bubble. Which is suicidal, and a CV player who does this, deserves to lose their planes to AA fire.

It matters against any form of anti-aircraft attack.  The lower an individual plane's hit points, the more likely they are to lose aircraft to attack.  Graf Zeppelin loses attack planes faster than any other comparable carrier at her tier, including Enterprise's tier VII dive bombers and torpedo bombers.  This not only hurts their ability to deliver strikes but it limits their ability as active scouts.

44 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

Speaking with in game experience of the in game iteration of Graf Zep (do you have any by the way?^^), without regard to the wiki stats (which contain major discrepancies as compared to the in game version), the Graf Zep does several things reasonably well, with the HE loadout, a) DD hunting, b) BB torture c) firestarter

The secondaries are not in fact very good, their range according to the in game client being 6.6km without AFT or other secondary range boosting mod. Which again begs the question..

Plenty.  The differences between the last iteration of Graf Zeppelin and this one are improved accuracy on her HE bombs and eliminated functionality of her AP Bombs along with a tweak to secondary range.  Looking at my replay folder, I've got 38 games played in Graf Zeppelin during the last iteration (another 18 when she had her OP torpedo planes), not including about 7 hours spent testing her AP bombs against various ship types (all targets from tiers VI through X) to create a list of vessels vulnerable to citadel hits from these munitions.  I don't do my analysis half-assed.  I can't afford to.

Her secondaries, btw, are ridiculous accurate, with comparable dispersion to a Battleship's main batteries (which is insane for a secondary).  This is hilarious but not especially practical.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,666
[90TH]
[90TH]
Alpha Tester
8,287 posts
9,171 battles
1 minute ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

 

Plenty.  The differences between the last iteration of Graf Zeppelin and this one are improved accuracy on her HE bombs and eliminated functionality of her AP Bombs along with a tweak to secondary range.  Looking at my replay folder, I've got 38 games played in Graf Zeppelin during the last iteration (another 18 when she had her OP torpedo planes), not including about 7 hours spent testing her AP bombs against various ship types (all targets from tiers VI through X) to create a list of vessels vulnerable to citadel hits from these munitions.  I don't do my analysis half-assed.  I can't afford to.

Her secondaries, btw, are ridiculous accurate, with comparable dispersion to a Battleship's main batteries (which is insane for a secondary).  This is hilarious but not especially practical.

I respect this, but the 38 games were in the last iteration on the test server? Random battles on the live server in the current iteration are not the same (similar sure, but there are subtle differences, not least the ninja adjustments to the GZ which has left everybody bewildered as to her real in game stats). I do not contest, her fighters need a buff. Will think on the other aspects you mention about active AA cruisers, though I have not come across any making effective use of their concealment/detection advantage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31,426
[WG-CC]
WoWS Community Contributors
10,817 posts
8,891 battles
34 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

I respect this, but the 38 games were in the last iteration on the test server? Random battles on the live server in the current iteration are not the same (similar sure, but there are subtle differences, not least the ninja adjustments to the GZ which has left everybody bewildered as to her real in game stats). I do not contest, her fighters need a buff. Will think on the other aspects you mention about active AA cruisers, though I have not come across any making effective use of their concealment/detection advantage.

I don't have access to the supertest server.  All of my testing is done on the live server.

Our big concerns when Graf Zeppelin was changed was that she wasn't strong in her previous iteration and aside from some accuracy buffs to secondaries and her HE bombs, it was overall a nerf to her performance with the absolute mutilation of her AP bombs.  Now, anyone that's done any testing for Wargaming before knows that when something goes live, there's often little things that may also change that goes undocumented.  It wasn't until I saw the live stats for myself that I could comment with authority.

Edited by LittleWhiteMouse
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
351
[GRFOX]
Members
2,242 posts
5,214 battles

Her secondary weapons are her main trump card the are ranged longer than most ship born torpedoes making her an effective Destroyer hunter in the HE load out as her planes can soften them up before the secondary guns finish them off. She can also add her fire power to other ships near by making an effective fire support ship in a pinch. Her planes coupled with AA will hold anything that gets in AA umbrella nine times out of ten two fighters will survive the strafe and lock down the attacking fighters resulting in the enemy being wiped with combined fire. Think of the fighter as a web and AA is the spider. It's a tactic I find her fighters surprising good at compared to other fighters.

Basically GZ is very different to play for a carrier pilot used to flying across the map to attack or defend that is suicide for GZ she is a short range area denial machine or flanking aid. Basically she will stop a flanking move cold or aid your DDs at flanking at the cost of not being able to project power everywhere. So move her to where you think the flanking maneuvers will happen and watch the attack damage numbers climb. She can cover and add fire to a group of Battleships that stay together she is a cruiser after all but as soon as the disperse her effectiveness drops considerably.

 

Why would you want to change this into Shokaku clone? 

 

At this point I stand by my view she needs another fighter squadron, radar, and or hydro acoustic. The AP need to be set to the BIG Es timing and she is ready for primetime. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
88
[M_L]
Beta Testers
323 posts
9,822 battles
2 minutes ago, GreyFox78659 said:

At this point I stand by my view she needs another fighter squadron, radar, and or hydro acoustic. The AP need to be set to the BIG Es timing and she is ready for primetime. 

Radar would break the ship. Hydro would be interesting and rather "German" as far as the game goes. Also the AP bombs would need a massive pen nerf if you were going to cut their delay by that much. Otherwise they would be over powered. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
351
[GRFOX]
Members
2,242 posts
5,214 battles
59 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Thus surrendering scouting and vision control to the enemy CV

I find blowing up DD is more effective at blinding enemies especially when down tiered as that is the only class of ship that can't effectively defend from an air attack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
351
[GRFOX]
Members
2,242 posts
5,214 battles
2 minutes ago, Grathew said:

Radar would break the ship. Hydro would be interesting and rather "German" as far as the game goes. Also the AP bombs would need a massive pen nerf if you were going to cut their delay by that much. Otherwise they would be over powered. 

I do believe it technically is broken so radar would not break GZ. :cap_yes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,666
[90TH]
[90TH]
Alpha Tester
8,287 posts
9,171 battles

f6ybnUU.jpg

If it is to be played as a frontline support, they should put the secondaries range back to 10km (without skills or mods). My in game client is showing 6.6km. Smoke, heals, radar, hydro, we need them all! In fact probably needs a sword for when we press the "bring me closer" button. I'm not against this style of play, and in fact think it would be interesting to experiment with. But...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
105
[WOLF3]
Members
377 posts
4,474 battles

I think what IS becoming clear is certain people want GZ turned into a Shokaku clone. I think the fact that GZ takes more outside the box thinking has damaged certain CC's and "elitist" testers already fragile egos. 

 

GZ is the FIRST ship in WOWS that REQUIRES team effort and co-ordination. Every single other ship. no matter WHICH ONE, can be done solo with no input or strategy with team mates, You just steer and shoot. THAT is what certain CC's like and want to keep. Now along comes GZ, which screams out for team co-ordination to be 100% and suddenly "OMG NO WE CANT HAVE THAT IT STINKS ITS NOT FINISHED IT NEEDS TO GO AWAY BTW WARGAMING HAS KINDLY PROVIDED ME WITH EVERY SINGLE SHIP IN THE GAME TEE HEE HEE I HAVE A NIKOLAI AND YOU DON'T"

 

GZ is the first ship that requires a division. Pair her up with a CA and work them in tandem and I swear to Lawd Jeebus she will shred everything. 

 

But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO lets turn her into a German Shokaku

 

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
88
[M_L]
Beta Testers
323 posts
9,822 battles
35 minutes ago, SteffisCute said:

I think what IS becoming clear is certain people want GZ turned into a Shokaku clone. I think the fact that GZ takes more outside the box thinking has damaged certain CC's and "elitist" testers already fragile egos. 

 

GZ is the FIRST ship in WOWS that REQUIRES team effort and co-ordination. Every single other ship. no matter WHICH ONE, can be done solo with no input or strategy with team mates, You just steer and shoot. THAT is what certain CC's like and want to keep. Now along comes GZ, which screams out for team co-ordination to be 100% and suddenly "OMG NO WE CANT HAVE THAT IT STINKS ITS NOT FINISHED IT NEEDS TO GO AWAY BTW WARGAMING HAS KINDLY PROVIDED ME WITH EVERY SINGLE SHIP IN THE GAME TEE HEE HEE I HAVE A NIKOLAI AND YOU DON'T"

 

GZ is the first ship that requires a division. Pair her up with a CA and work them in tandem and I swear to Lawd Jeebus she will shred everything. 

 

But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO lets turn her into a German Shokaku

 

 

Gramar aside I agree that Graf Zeppelin is only useful when you have a division. Prinz Eugin or Hipper makes for a good historical division, works pretty well too. 

However I don't think the Graf has shattered anyone's ego, nor do I think that CCs or the likes want to make her a Shokaku clone. I do think however that when it comes to the development of this ship further the more logical and well formed your argument the more likely it will be acted upon. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
351
[GRFOX]
Members
2,242 posts
5,214 battles
44 minutes ago, SteffisCute said:

I think what IS becoming clear is certain people want GZ turned into a Shokaku clone. I think the fact that GZ takes more outside the box thinking has damaged certain CC's and "elitist" testers already fragile egos. 

 

GZ is the FIRST ship in WOWS that REQUIRES team effort and co-ordination. Every single other ship. no matter WHICH ONE, can be done solo with no input or strategy with team mates, You just steer and shoot. THAT is what certain CC's like and want to keep. Now along comes GZ, which screams out for team co-ordination to be 100% and suddenly "OMG NO WE CANT HAVE THAT IT STINKS ITS NOT FINISHED IT NEEDS TO GO AWAY BTW WARGAMING HAS KINDLY PROVIDED ME WITH EVERY SINGLE SHIP IN THE GAME TEE HEE HEE I HAVE A NIKOLAI AND YOU DON'T"

 

GZ is the first ship that requires a division. Pair her up with a CA and work them in tandem and I swear to Lawd Jeebus she will shred everything. 

 

But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO lets turn her into a German Shokaku

 

 

Bingo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
479
[-BRS-]
Members
1,765 posts
9,412 battles

The problem with playing the Graf zeppelin in randoms, is people will eventually adapt their playstyles to deal with it, which I can personally attest to. More and more people are deciding to kite me then to blunder into my secondary range. Also, no longer are cvs willing to engage my planes over my ships AA ranges, due to them slowly understanding her AA firepower is subsequently better because of the improvements made to CPT skills for secondary builds.

Edited by Cpt_Cupcake
grammar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,028 posts
10,734 battles

Hey

The whole Graf Zeppelin is a shame that it happened at all.  The ship itself looks great, the details, the whole concept rocked; just the quick changes to dropping the torp planes was a bad decision, the rush to market, and now people are going to have to wait in the hopes that it gets fixed to where its a viable ship without being OP.  I looked forward to getting one (even though I have never tried CV's) but something that broke was not worth spending my money on.  Maybe (just maybe) down the road when it might be released again, I will consider buying it.

 

Pete

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
130
[CHAOS]
Members
574 posts
2,491 battles
On 8/29/2017 at 11:34 AM, aethervox said:

Not me. I will enjoy the premium camo & the opportunity to get the GZ 'right'.

I also have this suspicion (call it a conspiracy, if you will) that the louder the criticisms the more someone is covering some 'advantage' up.

 

I've enjoyed playing the ship so far.  I feel like the weakness is mainly to Tier IX/X AA.  The circle drop HE bombs work great.  She's a heck of a fire starter and timing these right you can force ships to burn for ages.   I suspect reducing or removing the AP delay to make that loadout viable and making the planes slightly tougher would be enough to make her a solid CV.  

 

The proposals I've seen basically turn her into Shokaku, and really what's the point.  If you someone wants a Shokaku....well get one :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×