Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 10 battles to post in this section.
GreyFox78659

Giving up of GZ

126 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Members
4,239 posts
4 minutes ago, Grathew said:

they want a carrier for 'ranked' which I see as a very limited game mode running sometimes.

Not everyone wants a ship for ranked either.

From what I've read, it just feels like WG tried to force this thing into T8.  I really do wonder how she'd perform at T6 with the same build.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
351
[GRFOX]
Members
2,242 posts
5,164 battles

At least Change out her planes for FW190s if you want better planes. Mostly what she would of fielded latewar anyways

Edited by GreyFox78659

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
351
[GRFOX]
Members
2,242 posts
5,164 battles
7 minutes ago, Wowzery said:

Not everyone wants a ship for ranked either.

From what I've read, it just feels like WG tried to force this thing into T8.  I really do wonder how she'd perform at T6 with the same build.

T7 

 

T6 is to far down

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
88
[M_L]
Beta Testers
323 posts
9,035 battles
2 minutes ago, GreyFox78659 said:

Pretty much agree I even think of big e as a coop carrier which is what I think premium carriers should be

The Big E is one of the better random battle carriers if you can manage her right. The torpedoes are good for harassment and getting people to turn out. The AP bombs are just as damaging as those torpedoes from my experience with the ship, and the only down side to the fighters is that they are slow. I suppose if you stuck with the HE bombs your alpha would be lacking but you could dot stack for better damage but I prefer to put down the guns faster so that my team doesn't get shot. But if you are the kind of person who enjoys watching hostile ships heath bar slowly deplete that's your choice. 

Just now, Wowzery said:

Not everyone wants a ship for ranked either.

From what I've read, it just feels like WG tried to force this thing into T8.  I really do wonder how she'd perform at T6 with the same build.

While not everyone may want a ranked ship, so far the only talk has been about ranked/competitive. I have yet to see anyone putting forth a well thought out and constructed load-out for Graf Zeppelin that isn't biased against ranked/competitive play. In the video that LWM linked, and everyone seems to be taking as the only solution (the temptation of a Nazi pun) to Graf Zeppelin's poor performance might as well make it so that every one wants a ranked/competitive game carrier. 

In short everyone wants to give Graf multiple torpedo bomber squads with either some kind of low total plane count but narrow spread or a larger number of planes in total but low damage and wider spreads. Meanwhile I'm sitting here formulating my argument for the brokenness of the torpedo bomber and that WG should address this when the carrier changes come but I'm still working on that one, I'm sure you'll see the thread when it starts.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
351
[GRFOX]
Members
2,242 posts
5,164 battles

Yeah Graf is the first Carrier that I don't really feel I even want torpedo planes. I want to be able to auto bomb a ship get my planes back and repeat in quick order. Not have to line up a shot and watch it miss because the several planes were shot down on line up. As Graf is a close in carrier I don't really have to wait long to recover planes to regroup. One by one is also doable if need be

Edited by GreyFox78659

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
351
[GRFOX]
Members
2,242 posts
5,164 battles

DOT is my bread and butter. "It's only a flesh wound" and "arsonist" are my heroine and crack cocaine.

Edited by GreyFox78659

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,897
[-Y-]
[-Y-]
Alpha Tester
5,590 posts
7,687 battles
6 hours ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Secondaries on a carrier are gimmicky and in no way balance the ship.  It all comes down to how they assign the flight squadrons.  The most interesting build for the meta will be to make her capable of competing with Shokaku in competitive meta.  For this she needs three elements:

  • Good (enough) fighters.
  • A decent strike package.
  • A reasonable scouting ability.

In her current state, she does not have this. 

  • Her fighters are useless.  They can't compete on any level with any of the other tier VIII CV fighters -- even Enterprise.
  • Her strike package is unreliable.  Her AP bombs are unusable in their current state.  Even removing the 6-second bomb delay would still make them a poor choice as they only work on select ships.  Even on the ships they DO work, they are highly dependent on RNG to deliver comparable damage that a good player could match with a manual torpedo drop.
  • Her strike package is unreliable.  Her HE bombs are highly RNG dependent.  Their drop pattern leads to inconsistent damage and the fires are a further RNG dice roll.  This can lead to the occasional game with some exemplary numbers and with similar opportunities, pathetic numbers in the next game.
  • Graf Zeppelin has very poor scouting ability.  Her fighters are too fragile (and too precious) to perform the role.  Her Dive Bombers are too slow and too fragile to perform it either.  Surrendering a squadron of dive bombers to undertake this role also damages her already poor strike package even further.

The best suggestions to improve Graf Zeppelin would be to give her a balanced build:  3-2-1 or 2-2-2 with substantial tweaks to how all of the planes and their ordinance operates.

honestly, what % of players cares a damn about high tier ranked, how many even take part in t8 ranked battles?

but we have in game ample proof that in random battles she can perform perfectly well faced with an average over confident Shokaku. Clear skies? Check. Decent Strike? Check. Reasonable scouting ability? Check.

Of course her point, click and pray HE bombs are rng based, so what? Given the very tight dispersion, you cannot miss. The fires are a dice roll, of course, but then as 2 bombs hit for each drop (at minimum) you are guaranteed a fire.

Yes buff the fighters, the only thing in this or your other comments regarding GZ I agree with, but even then, you seem fairly ignorant of real world in game experience. 43 kills in one random battle over air sup versus a Shokaku? Yup, has been done by at least one player only yesterday.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,471
[AXANR]
Members
3,370 posts
16,961 battles
5 hours ago, GreyFox78659 said:

LWM assuming you can play her. Go in coop with my build but play her like a light cruiser run up take the cap it's fun.

 

You can do all sorts of stupid crap in co-op that would never work in PvP. You can't balance ships solely based on what you can get away with in co-op. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
88
[M_L]
Beta Testers
323 posts
9,035 battles

@nuttybiscuit I would recommend putting a stop to your work to prove the CCs wrong, you'll eventually just come off as a [edited]. You're right we Graf players are gathering evidence against the hate but pointing it out all the time will ruin our reputation almost as much as the ship. 

Edited by Grathew
Trying to find a word that makes isn't [edited] by wargaming.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25,474
[WG-CC]
WoWS Community Contributors
9,447 posts
7,943 battles
11 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

honestly, what % of players cares a damn about high tier ranked, how many even take part in t8 ranked battles?

but we have in game ample proof that in random battles she can perform perfectly well faced with an average over confident Shokaku. Clear skies? Check. Decent Strike? Check. Reasonable scouting ability? Check.

Of course her point, click and pray HE bombs are rng based, so what? Given the very tight dispersion, you cannot miss. The fires are a dice roll, of course, but then as 2 bombs hit for each drop (at minimum) you are guaranteed a fire.

Yes buff the fighters, the only thing in this or your other comments regarding GZ I agree with, but even then, you seem fairly ignorant of real world in game experience. 43 kills in one random battle over air sup versus a Shokaku? Yup, has been done by at least one player only yesterday.

A fair number of players give a damn about high tier Ranked Battles..  Wargaming is also trying to actively promote Ranked Battles and is devoting quite of a bit of energy to them (including creating Ranked-Battle only maps, which demonstrates a significant level of commitment).  Participation in Ranked Battles for Seasons 5 (tier 8) was just as high as Season 7 (tier 6) at over 311,000 participants.

An occasional good match does not indicate an adequately performing ship.  All things being equal, a Graf Zeppelin stands no chance against anything short of a Strike Lexington.  In any other match up, it is the (severe) underdog.  I'm glad you're enjoying Graf Zeppelin as she appears, but she's not a solid contender, nor is she anything but a garbage boat.  I can make vessels like Ranger, Oleg and Krasny Krym work, that doesn't make them good ships.

Tell me honestly:

  • Does Graf Zeppelin's strike package stand up to Enterprise (in either spec?), Shokaku (in her top specs?) or Lexington (in her top specs?).  The only one it should compare to is a Lexington's AS package.
  • Does Graf Zeppelin's fighters enable you to stand up to Enterprise / Shokaku / Lexington, all things being equal?  Or do you need the enemy player to be an absolute potato to pull off any of the miracle moves you claim?

So you have a ship with the same striking power as an Air Superiority Lexington with an inability to perform to seriously contest an enemy CV in an air superiority role.  For Graf Zeppeling to do well, you don't have to just be better than the enemy carrier player, you have to hope they have no fighters or that they're absolutely terrible in CVs in the first place.  This was my experience playing her before they broke her AP bombs -- so she had two specs that were semi-viable. 

Once you take Graf Zeppelin out of Random and Co-Op battles, she's a fish out of water. 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,897
[-Y-]
[-Y-]
Alpha Tester
5,590 posts
7,687 battles
Just now, LittleWhiteMouse said:

 

Once you take Graf Zeppelin out of Random and Co-Op battles, she's a fish out of water. 

This I agree with. But then that is where we spend most of our in game time.. Now we agree on two things!!!

 

5 minutes ago, Grathew said:

@nuttybiscuit I would recommend putting a stop to your work to prove the CCs wrong, you'll eventually just come off as a [edited]. You're right we Graf players are gathering evidence against the hate but pointing it out all the time will ruin our reputation almost as much as the ship. 

Ruin 'our' repuation? My own rep has long been ruined! Don't worry though, I understand many commentators are afraid to criticize youtubers and some of the CCs in a public forum/ In my view; some of them crossed the line. If people are afraid to criticize or contradict CCs, something is very wrong, something some CCs and Youtubers are enjoying too much.

But I honestly think you can engage in robust conversation with LWM without fearing for your rep, or endangering LWMs - there is room for disagreement as shown by the priority placed by LWM on ranked, and our own on everyday gameplay experience in coop and random.

2 minutes ago, gbgentry said:

Think we need LWM vs nutty in a grudge random match...  :Smile_popcorn:

Who's buying the beer and popcorn?.(But no grudges held)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25,474
[WG-CC]
WoWS Community Contributors
9,447 posts
7,943 battles
3 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

But I honestly think you can engage in robust conversation with LWM without fearing for your rep, or endangering LWMs - there is room for disagreement as shown by the priority placed by LWM on ranked, and our own on everyday gameplay experience in coop and random.

You mistake me.  My priority is to ensure there's a decent ship for the average gamer to play -- not some $60 turd that will take people's money and leaves them with a bad experience.  If you honestly believe Graf Zeppelin is fine in Randoms and Co-Op, well, that's definitely within your right to claim.  Data won't back you up, but that's never stopped people from making anecdote based arguments before.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,897
[-Y-]
[-Y-]
Alpha Tester
5,590 posts
7,687 battles
30 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

 

Tell me honestly:

  • Does Graf Zeppelin's strike package stand up to Enterprise (in either spec?), Shokaku (in her top specs?) or Lexington (in her top specs?).  The only one it should compare to is a Lexington's AS package.
  • Does Graf Zeppelin's fighters enable you to stand up to Enterprise / Shokaku / Lexington, all things being equal?  Or do you need the enemy player to be an absolute potato to pull off any of the miracle moves you claim?

 

Honestly? Apples versus Pears.

GZ cannot win in a 1v1 situation versus "Enterprise (in either spec?), Shokaku (in her top specs?) or Lexington (in her top specs?)". (Maybe not true if an AP strike loadout gets through - needs testing)

But with equal honesty, 1 v 1 situations don't happen. Against a Shokaku player who genuinely knows what they are doing + an opposing team that are coordinated into an AA bubble throughout the match full of t10/9 aa cruisers inc 2 baltimores after a start in which chat is full of "we are going to lose because youtube says so" - honestly? GZ is totally destroyed in such a context.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,897
[-Y-]
[-Y-]
Alpha Tester
5,590 posts
7,687 battles
Just now, LittleWhiteMouse said:

You mistake me.  My priority is to ensure there's a decent ship for the average gamer to play -- not some $60 turd that will take people's money and leaves them with a bad experience.  If you honestly believe Graf Zeppelin is fine in Randoms and Co-Op, well, that's definitely within your right to claim.  Data won't back you up, but that's never stopped people from making anecdote based arguments before.

Data won't back me up? Have you kept an eye on WR on the EU server (where most GZs were bought and have been played) Have you bothered to checkout the multiple screenshots of in game results posted on these forums?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25,474
[WG-CC]
WoWS Community Contributors
9,447 posts
7,943 battles
1 minute ago, nuttybiscuit said:

But with equal honesty, 1 v 1 situations don't happen.

1 vs 1 happens every time a CV clicks "join battle".  Your only competition is the enemy in the other CV.  How Graf Zeppelin matches up against the other CV is more pertinent than any other ship type.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,897
[-Y-]
[-Y-]
Alpha Tester
5,590 posts
7,687 battles
3 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

1 vs 1 happens every time a CV clicks "join battle".  Your only competition is the enemy in the other CV.  How Graf Zeppelin matches up against the other CV is more pertinent than any other ship type.

https://eu.warships.today/vehicle/3762272048/Graf Zeppelin

Graf Zeppelin 49% WR after 10 000 battles on the EU server. It is certainly no Enterprise, but then that is fairly unique.

PASA508.pngEnterprise 56%PJSA012.pngShokaku Japan 52%PGSA508.pngGraf Zeppelin Germany 49%PASA012.pngLexington USA 47%

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
656 posts
1,550 battles
5 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

1 vs 1 happens every time a CV clicks "join battle".  Your only competition is the enemy in the other CV.  How Graf Zeppelin matches up against the other CV is more pertinent than any other ship type.

 

Love ya LWM and stayed away from the GZ in part based on your recommendation but when the opponent is coordinated and has good aa bubbles/ships like nuttybuscuit described, "your only competition" is certainly Not the red CV.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,471
[AXANR]
Members
3,370 posts
16,961 battles
28 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

there is room for disagreement as shown by the priority placed by LWM on ranked, and our own on everyday gameplay experience in coop and random.

Except GZ is at a huge disadvantage even in randoms. Co-op is the only place she's viable right now, because she always faces another GZ, and only faces bots. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
656 posts
1,550 battles
1 minute ago, poeticmotion said:

Except GZ is at a huge disadvantage even in randoms. Co-op is the only place she's viable right now, because she always faces another GZ, and only faces bots. 

 

Reference to above EU stats and reposts of Random results coming in 3...2...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,471
[AXANR]
Members
3,370 posts
16,961 battles
20 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

https://eu.warships.today/vehicle/3762272048/Graf Zeppelin

Graf Zeppelin 49% WR after 10 000 battles on the EU server. It is certainly no Enterprise, but then that is fairly unique.

PASA508.pngEnterprise 56%PJSA012.pngShokaku Japan 52%PGSA508.pngGraf Zeppelin Germany 49%PASA012.pngLexington USA 47%

But, as a German CV, I would imagine GZ sales were very high on European server comparatively, and played a lot because first weekend. So how many of those games had a GZ on each side where no matter which team won, a GZ would? 

You can't look at the opening weekend win rate on one server and say the ship isn't garbage. You're isolating one dataset without context. 

Edited by poeticmotion
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
656 posts
1,550 battles
8 minutes ago, poeticmotion said:

But, as a German CV, I would imagine GZ sales were very high on European server comparatively, and played a lot because first weekend. So how many of those games had a GZ on each side where no matter which team won, a GZ would? 

You can't look at the opening weekend win rate on one server and say the ship isn't garbage. You're isolating one dataset without context. 

 

While I largely agree with you, I think the GZ was pulled quickly from all servers (EU included) so the number of players would not be "very high".   With the small player-pool, it will be interesting to see where the numbers settle once the other CVs develop strategies for her.

 

 

...I don't even own this stupid ship;  Why am I defending her..?  :Smile_hiding:

Edited by gbgentry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,897
[-Y-]
[-Y-]
Alpha Tester
5,590 posts
7,687 battles
19 minutes ago, poeticmotion said:

Except GZ is at a huge disadvantage even in randoms. Co-op is the only place she's viable right now, because she always faces another GZ, and only faces bots. 

The EU server WR of 49% only refers to PvP (random) battles. True, we do not know how many were sold. But we do know that the Enterprise which has been around for much longer has 'only' 40 000 battles on the clock compared to the GZs 10 000 battles which it has managed in only a short (and brutal) week..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,471
[AXANR]
Members
3,370 posts
16,961 battles
29 minutes ago, poeticmotion said:

But, as a German CV, I would imagine GZ sales were very high on European server comparatively, and played a lot because first weekend. So how many of those games had a GZ on each side where no matter which team won, a GZ would? 

 

 

21 minutes ago, gbgentry said:

While I largely agree with you, I think the GZ was pulled quickly from all servers (EU included) so the number of players would not be "very high".   With the small player-pool, it will be interesting to see where the numbers settle once the other CVs develop strategies for her.

Note the word 'comparatively'. Relevant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,897
[-Y-]
[-Y-]
Alpha Tester
5,590 posts
7,687 battles
1 minute ago, poeticmotion said:

 

Note the word 'comparatively'. Relevant.

quibbles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×