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GreyFox78659

Giving up of GZ

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At this point boost her secondary guns add a fighter squad and give her hydro and radar I was saying up her armor but now I think it's fine.

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20 hours ago, RevolutionBlues said:

Moderated by Mezurashi.

 

Ok good luck pinkies can't sink teammates though.

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20 hours ago, RevolutionBlues said:

Moderated by Mezurashi.

 

LWM not your fault at all but could you tell your fellow CCs to you better wording or just say don't buy it. I could live with why did you buy it post but threatening to sink me, I lay this square on the CC community hype.

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1 minute ago, GreyFox78659 said:

At this point boost her secondary guns add a fighter squad and give her hydro and radar I was saying up her armor but now I think it's fine.

Secondaries on a carrier are gimmicky and in no way balance the ship.  It all comes down to how they assign the flight squadrons.  The most interesting build for the meta will be to make her capable of competing with Shokaku in competitive meta.  For this she needs three elements:

  • Good (enough) fighters.
  • A decent strike package.
  • A reasonable scouting ability.

In her current state, she does not have this. 

  • Her fighters are useless.  They can't compete on any level with any of the other tier VIII CV fighters -- even Enterprise.
  • Her strike package is unreliable.  Her AP bombs are unusable in their current state.  Even removing the 6-second bomb delay would still make them a poor choice as they only work on select ships.  Even on the ships they DO work, they are highly dependent on RNG to deliver comparable damage that a good player could match with a manual torpedo drop.
  • Her strike package is unreliable.  Her HE bombs are highly RNG dependent.  Their drop pattern leads to inconsistent damage and the fires are a further RNG dice roll.  This can lead to the occasional game with some exemplary numbers and with similar opportunities, pathetic numbers in the next game.
  • Graf Zeppelin has very poor scouting ability.  Her fighters are too fragile (and too precious) to perform the role.  Her Dive Bombers are too slow and too fragile to perform it either.  Surrendering a squadron of dive bombers to undertake this role also damages her already poor strike package even further.

The best suggestions to improve Graf Zeppelin would be to give her a balanced build:  3-2-1 or 2-2-2 with substantial tweaks to how all of the planes and their ordinance operates.

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2 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Secondaries on a carrier are gimmicky and in no way balance the ship.  It all comes down to how they assign the flight squadrons.  The most interesting build for the meta will be to make her capable of competing with Shokaku in competitive meta.  For this she needs three elements:

  • Good (enough) fighters.
  • A decent strike package.
  • A reasonable scouting ability.

In her current state, she does not have this. 

  • Her fighters are useless.  They can't compete on any level with any of the other tier VIII CV fighters -- even Enterprise.
  • Her strike package is unreliable.  Her AP bombs are unusable in their current state.  Even removing the 6-second bomb delay would still make them a poor choice as they only work on select ships.  Even on the ships they DO work, they are highly dependent on RNG to deliver comparable damage that a good player could match with a manual torpedo drop.
  • Her strike package is unreliable.  Her HE bombs are highly RNG dependent.  Their drop pattern leads to inconsistent damage and the fires are a further RNG dice roll.  This can lead to the occasional game with some exemplary numbers and with similar opportunities, pathetic numbers in the next game.
  • Graf Zeppelin has very poor scouting ability.  Her fighters are too fragile (and too precious) to perform the role.  Her Dive Bombers are too slow and too fragile to perform it either.  Surrendering a squadron of dive bombers to undertake this role also damages her already poor strike package even further.

The best suggestions to improve Graf Zeppelin would be to give her a balanced build:  3-2-1 or 2-2-2 with substantial tweaks to how all of the planes and their ordinance operates.

Ever stop to think some of us don't like the meta and like the gimmicks. Especially in her case as she wasn't a fleet Carrier the Germans were operating on the principle she was a support ship for battleships

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Just now, GreyFox78659 said:

Ever stop to think some of us don't like the meta and like the gimmicks. Especially in her case as she wasn't a fleet Carrier the Germans were operating on the principle she was a support ship for battleships

You're well entitle to like the gimmicks.  We can ensure that she has some gimmicks when, you know, she's a workable CV that adds to the game instead of detracting from it.  The tier VIII CV is very unhealthy with only two decent carriers and one clearly superior to the other (Shokaku & Enterprise).  Lexington can be resurrected but it's going to take work.  Adding another lame duck isn't going to help the health of the game.

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7 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

You're well entitle to like the gimmicks.  We can ensure that she has some gimmicks when, you know, she's a workable CV that adds to the game instead of detracting from it.  The tier VIII CV is very unhealthy with only two decent carriers and one clearly superior to the other (Shokaku & Enterprise).  Lexington can be resurrected but it's going to take work.  Adding another lame duck isn't going to help the health of the game.

At this point as people are learning her I would bet her stats change I find I cooperative play  aggressive and heck do the unthinkable cap she is a Got Boot until a battleship shows up

Edited by GreyFox78659

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6 minutes ago, GreyFox78659 said:

Also meta is a swear word in my books.

Don't start celebrating ignorance.  It's a slippery path that leads to an unhealthy experience.

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15 minutes ago, GreyFox78659 said:

LWM not your fault at all but could you tell your fellow CCs to you better wording or just say don't buy it. I could live with why did you buy it post but threatening to sink me, I lay this square on the CC community hype.

 

My dislike of the ship has nothing to do with the reviews, but with the fact that every single time I have been stuck with a Trash Zeppelin on my team it has been completely worthless. 

 

I've even felt bad for enemy teams when they've been stuck with one. 

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1 hour ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

You're well entitle to like the gimmicks.  We can ensure that she has some gimmicks when, you know, she's a workable CV that adds to the game instead of detracting from it.  The tier VIII CV is very unhealthy with only two decent carriers and one clearly superior to the other (Shokaku & Enterprise).  Lexington can be resurrected but it's going to take work.  Adding another lame duck isn't going to help the health of the game.

She is more workable than you or anyone else are willing to admit. She has issues, like every other ship has, Besides, I seem to recall you admit you don't like and are not comfortable with CV play so WHY should I take your review with any sort of seriousness? BB/CA/DD yes, 100%. CVs? Uh NO.

It is starting to feel like you and every other CC and "elite player" is trying to change her from a thinking person's ship to a more "hurr durr smash the button" style that seems to be so prevalent in this game.

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Just now, SteffisCute said:

She is more workable than you or anyone else are willing to admit. She has issues, like every other ship has, Besides, I seem to recall you admit you don't like and are not comfortable with CV play so WHY should I take your review with any sort of seriousness? BB/CA/DD yes, 100%. CVs? Uh NO.

It is starting to feel like you and every other CC and "elite player" is trying to change her from a thinking person's ship to a more "hurr durr smash the button" style that seems to be so prevalent in this game.

Then don't take my word.  Take the word of the best CV player in the world.  He puts it into very understandable terms the problems with Graf Zeppelin.

NSFW warning -- contains swearing.

 

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2 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Then don't take my word.  Take the word of the best CV player in the world.  He puts it into very understandable terms the problems with Graf Zeppelin.

NSFW warning -- contains swearing.

 

Seen it he even use the word Shokaku clone not what we want we want this: 

With emergency take off and two both secondary upgrades I am pretty much telling Destroyers where I am hoping they try to carrier snipe me. Just to go PAC-MAN on them. What's that on the horizon a blue ghost ship, fire up the cannons, load up the bomb racks :Smile_izmena::cap_rambo:mates time for some righteous revenge.

Edited 2 hours ago by GreyFox78659

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I just don't see why they made her a T8 when they had to rework her so much and she still wasn't competitive.  I do wonder how, with her current build, she would have worked at say T6 instead.

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Just now, GreyFox78659 said:

Seen it he even use the word Shokaku clone not what we want we want this: 

With emergency take off and two both secondary upgrades I am pretty much telling Destroyers where I am hoping they try to carrier snipe me. Just to go PAC-MAN on them. What's that on the horizon a blue ghost ship, fire up the cannons, load up the bomb racks :Smile_izmena::cap_rambo:mates time for some righteous revenge.

Edited 2 hours ago by GreyFox78659

Finish watching the whole video.  You haven't even gotten 4 minutes in before arguing.

He's not advocating for a Shokaku-clone.  He's advocating for using the Shokaku as a basis upon which all other CVs at tier VIII should be built and balanced from.  Like it or not, without a 2-2-2 or 3-1-2 build (or equivalency), a carrier current does not have the tool set to be competitive in Ranked or Team battles.  This becomes increasingly important as Clan Battles approaches which may (or may not) include a tier VIII meta. 

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This is a ship I feel like yelling Waaaauuuggghhh!!!!!    When I see a destroyer or light cruiser near by. I don't feel like screaming for help.

Edited by GreyFox78659

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1 minute ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Finish watching the whole video.  You haven't even gotten 4 minutes in before arguing.

He's not advocating for a Shokaku-clone.  He's advocating for using the Shokaku as a basis upon which all other CVs at tier VIII should be built and balanced from.  Like it or not, without a 2-2-2 or 3-1-2 build (or equivalency), a carrier current does not have the tool set to be competitive in Ranked or Team battles.  This becomes increasingly important as Clan Battles approaches which may (or may not) include a tier VIII meta. 

I watched it he makes a valid case for the Zuikaku free xp ship idea I had. Or a Hornet premium. Graf isn't those ships.

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I tried watching it again while playing a drinking game I drank every time he said Shokaku needless to say the ambulance is own the way.:Smile_ohmy:

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1 minute ago, GreyFox78659 said:

I tried watching it again while playing a drinking game I drank every time he said Shokaku needless to say the ambulance is own the way.:Smile_ohmy:

You still haven't watched the whole video.  You're not in a place to comment on his reasons for criticizing the Graf Zeppelin.  You may have had it running in the background, but the time you've taken to post undermines understanding the very valid (and very concerning) points he makes. 

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I can summarize it.

His point: planes are week and slow almost tier vii but classes viii so they don't get DFE can't scout 

 

My point: planes should be working in cooperation with AA as bf109s were short range planes and would of been over their own ships 90% of the time. Her bomber were also short range and were to be supported by secondary artillery. The strong strafe they have is my proof that was the concept in envisioned by WG

 

His point: she is slow fat pig 

My point: yes, give her better armor and secondaries that was her concept.

His point: all tier viii should be largely clones of Shokaku with different gimmicks to differ them

My point: not Graf Zeppelin she isn't a fleet carrier fleet carriers should be like Shokaku. Graf is a cruiser hybrid

Edited by GreyFox78659

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I've skipped though that video more than a few times. As it keeps getting posted. All I can say is if torpedo bombers are the only way to fix a underperforming carrier then there is something broken with torpedo bombers. 

Also I haven't seen a competitive mode that the Graf could play in since two or three ranked seasons ago, so I don't see why that is so important for ship balance unless there is some European league or something. 

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LWM assuming you can play her. Go in coop with my build but play her like a light cruiser run up take the cap it's fun.

Edited by GreyFox78659

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no one cares about a carrier for co-op GreyFox, they want a carrier for 'ranked' which I see as a very limited game mode running sometimes. Or 'competitive game mode' which I am assuming is what clan wars will be and if clan wars follows the tanks model then Graf won't get used cause tier 10s will be the mainstay of that mode too. Thus I say that looking at anything other than the random battle performance isn't worth it at this time. Given a year or so maybe, but right now looking at randoms only is what we should be doing. 

Anyway the problem I have with the video as a hole is that he basically says that a ship needs strong torpedo bombers to be playable. That would be like saying all destroyers need stealth torpedoes else they are trash, I'm hoping that I don't need to explain that too much further. 

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5 minutes ago, Grathew said:

no one cares about a carrier for co-op GreyFox, they want a carrier for 'ranked' which I see as a very limited game mode running sometimes. Or 'competitive game mode' which I am assuming is what clan wars will be and if clan wars follows the tanks model then Graf won't get used cause tier 10s will be the mainstay of that mode too. Thus I say that looking at anything other than the random battle performance isn't worth it at this time. Given a year or so maybe, but right now looking at randoms only is what we should be doing. 

Anyway the problem I have with the video as a hole is that he basically says that a ship needs strong torpedo bombers to be playable. That would be like saying all destroyers need stealth torpedoes else they are trash, I'm hoping that I don't need to explain that too much further. 

Pretty much agree I even think of big e as a coop carrier which is what I think premium carriers should be

Edited by GreyFox78659

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