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TheDreadnought

Radar is awesome BECAUSE it goes through islands! (hear me out)

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I agree. . . normally radar should not be able to see through islands.  On the other hand, it also ought to have more range and be always on.  So let's set the realistic properties of radar aside for a second and talk about it as a video game consumable.

 

As implemented, radar is good for the game.  Island camping DDs, cruisers (and even battleships these days!) are the bane of fun gameplay.  They promote a static, camping environment that makes for a boring game.  A naval game should not be about hiding behind rocks and sniping at other players who show themselves.  If you want to do that, go play tanks, or COD or something.

 

Last night I discovered how effective radar can be at punishing island campers.  I was in my Baltimore.  An enemy Flint and Baltimore had pushed up to an island in the middle and were sitting completely still.  When some of my team moved up on the flanks, the Flint popped smoke and they continued to sit there.  I drove my Baltimore up to the opposite side of the island, and activated my radar.  My team quickly obliterated the Baltimore, and I drove around the island and blasted the Flint into scrap (my first Flint kill!)

 

This is exactly what needs to happen to island campers.

 

Cruisers and destroyers are supposed to be a fast-moving, dynamic part of the game.  They're supposed to use their low visibility to contest caps, flank enemies, and hunt each other.  When they see each other combat is supposed to be fast and brutal.  If they get caught out in the open, DDs and  many CLs (which CLs should have no business engaging battleships) have smoke to conceal themselves with, which should be used to escape. . . not invisifire.  But one problem at a time I suppose.

 

Instead of learning how to play that way, people want to turn DDs and CLs into land-based defensive turrets to the detriment of gameplay.  Radar, as implemented, is a great way of punishing these players for making the game boring.  I had great fun seeing them get slaughtered last night.  I think I have a new mission for my Baltimore.

 

As a side note, the only excuse for island camping is as a short term tactic to remain hidden to surprise a ship coming around the island.  They should never know you're there to even think of using radar.  Slowly sailing back and forth and shooting at a ship some distance away deserves to get radared.

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Still, people ignore them in game.   :etc_swear:

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Except this issue is being resolved with the new changes to smoke spotting mechanics.

 

Even as a DD main I think those changes will be positive to the game.

 

(Though USN DDs remain badly power crept. To the point I have stopped playing them, even with gold camo and 19 point captians in them.)

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8 minutes ago, TheDreadnought said:

I agree. . . normally radar should not be able to see through islands.  On the other hand, it also ought to have more range and be always on.  So let's set the realistic properties of radar aside for a second and talk about it as a video game consumable.

 

As implemented, radar is good for the game.  Island camping DDs, cruisers (and even battleships these days!) are the bane of fun gameplay.  They promote a static, camping environment that makes for a boring game.  A naval game should not be about hiding behind rocks and sniping at other players who show themselves.  If you want to do that, go play tanks, or COD or something.

 

Last night I discovered how effective radar can be at punishing island campers.  I was in my Baltimore.  An enemy Flint and Baltimore had pushed up to an island in the middle and were sitting completely still.  When some of my team moved up on the flanks, the Flint popped smoke and they continued to sit there.  I drove my Baltimore up to the opposite side of the island, and activated my radar.  My team quickly obliterated the Baltimore, and I drove around the island and blasted the Flint into scrap (my first Flint kill!)

 

This is exactly what needs to happen to island campers.

 

Cruisers and destroyers are supposed to be a fast-moving, dynamic part of the game.  They're supposed to use their low visibility to contest caps, flank enemies, and hunt each other.  When they see each other combat is supposed to be fast and brutal.  If they get caught out in the open, DDs and  many CLs (which CLs should have no business engaging battleships) have smoke to conceal themselves with, which should be used to escape. . . not invisifire.  But one problem at a time I suppose.

 

Instead of learning how to play that way, people want to turn DDs and CLs into land-based defensive turrets to the detriment of gameplay.  Radar, as implemented, is a great way of punishing these players for making the game boring.  I had great fun seeing them get slaughtered last night.  I think I have a new mission for my Baltimore.

 

As a side note, the only excuse for island camping is as a short term tactic to remain hidden to surprise a ship coming around the island.  They should never know you're there to even think of using radar.  Slowly sailing back and forth and shooting at a ship some distance away deserves to get radared.

That's funny, because I have no issue with a Radar ship that is out in the open, moving around, where they can be spotted and shot at. I don't even have a problem if said radar ship is in smoke, using their radar.  If I can at the very least blind fire into smoke to hope to hit and destroy the ship that is lighting me up, that's fair game to me.

My problem are the radar ships that park behind islands, near a cap, and wait for the cap to flip to pop their radar.  They can't be seen, they can't be shot, yet they are influencing an entire cap or flank.

So from my experience, the very thing you claim radar fixes, is in my experience, the problem with radar.  They use it while hidden and not moving, where they can't be seen or countered at all.

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I like some of what you're saying.  this is supposed to be a ship game not a hide behind islands and lob shells like a static emplacement game.  I don't really blame the players that do it, I mostly blame WG for having so many unnecessary islands and giving too many boats ridiculous loft on their shells to take advantage of them - players will use the advantages the game gives them.  it's up to WG to open things up by having more open water maps and less nonsensical lofty shells.  

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1 minute ago, Kerrec said:

That's funny, because I have no issue with a Radar ship that is out in the open, moving around, where they can be spotted and shot at. I don't even have a problem if said radar ship is in smoke, using their radar.  If I can at the very least blind fire into smoke to hope to hit and destroy the ship that is lighting me up, that's fair game to me.

My problem are the radar ships that park behind islands, near a cap, and wait for the cap to flip to pop their radar.  They can't be seen, they can't be shot, yet they are influencing an entire cap or flank.

So from my experience, the very thing you claim radar fixes, is in my experience, the problem with radar.  They use it while hidden and not moving, where they can't be seen or countered at all.

I don't think I've ever encountered somebody using it that way.  If it happens, it's only a very small slice of the population.

 

Meanwhile, the other form of island camping is rampant.

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Good points about radar being something that would actually be "always-on" in real life.

I don't have a problem with radar going through land. It's part of the trade-off between real life and a video game. Radar, as well as sonar, would not have timers and cooldowns in real life, with the trade off being their use would aid in your own ship being detected.

Folks need to fully understand that this is not a reality simulator. It's an arcade naval warfare game. Folks like to bring reality into it when talking about radar but then conveniently forget that in real life, you don't pilot a ship from a view several dozen feet above the topmost point of your ship. In real life your ships would likely not behave as consistently as they do in the game as well. Those real life issues are ignored in-game for the sake of gameplay without folks crapping the bed over it. Radar is the same thing.

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4 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

Except this issue is being resolved with the new changes to smoke spotting mechanics.

 

Even as a DD main I think those changes will be positive to the game.

 

(Though USN DDs remain badly power crept. To the point I have stopped playing them, even with gold camo and 19 point captians in them.)

 

How do changes to smoke spotting mechanics solve the problem of island camping?  The just address the smoke camping issue,

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Indeed smoke camping and island camping are very much not the same....

 

I for one love when a radar ship nears an island being used as a hidey hole. It's not how those ships are meant to be played... Hiding... Doing little... Waiting to back up to slow or move out just too much to get blasted into space. This is not Tanks. This is sheeps.

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39 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

Except this issue is being resolved with the new changes to smoke spotting mechanics.

Even as a DD main I think those changes will be positive to the game.

(Though USN DDs remain badly power crept. To the point I have stopped playing them, even with gold camo and 19 point captians in them.)

I agree, Benson and Gearing are just totally useless. Fletcher isn't even worth keeping in port.  /s

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Wow, the majority on the forums are against radar through islands. I guess you could say radar is for those ships that don't have planes to see over them.

 

I get past radar though. I keep a list of ranges that i look at before the match starts so i know how far to stay away. 

 

I don't push into a cap until i know where all the radar ships are located. 

 

If an enemy DD starts to cap,  he's welcome to it. Keep yourself away from islands they could be hiding, but push in far enough to try and spot the enemy DD for my team. 

 

Some have mentioned making radar range farther, but I see that as making matches more stagnant.

Edited by Wulfgarn
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The core gameplay should encourage actively moving (not just going forward or backward, but changing heading and throttle) as the best means of defense, but it doesn't.

The current radar is just a band-aid that temporarily negates smoke. Smoke is a band-aid that provides concealment in an area, and concealment is the band-aid that keeps lighter ships from being deleted.

 

In fact, there's only one set of light ships that does actually live by moving, and that's the Russian gunboats.

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1 hour ago, HazardDrake said:

(Though USN DDs remain badly power crept. To the point I have stopped playing them, even with gold camo and 19 point captians in them.)

 

US DDs (except the Clemson) are in quite a bad place right now. Used to play them almost exclusively and was often very effective.  Now I don't touch them.  Not interested in handicapping myself or the team.

 

IJN DDs are in an even worse spot - arguably the most frustrating-to-play ships in the game.

 

Of course, RU DDs remain all but unaffected by any of the changes.  This is not unintentional.

"But we dramatically nerfed the Khab's torpedoes!"  

Oh, the humanatee.  What-ever will I do with the Khab now?

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2 hours ago, TheDreadnought said:

 

How do changes to smoke spotting mechanics solve the problem of island camping?  The just address the smoke camping issue,

I wasn't aware of there being an island camping issue.  Is any tactic that prevents a BB from deleting a cruiser all of a sudden game breaking?  Flank the island camper instead of sitting bow on in the open and the problem is solved.  The cruiser can't take the island with them as a shield.

 

I dislike radar going through islands, but I don't consider it game breaking.  I dislike it because of the problems it poses to the DD's, but as a fan of the Atlanta I could care less if someone knows I am behind that island.  The 14 guns arching hot lead over the island was going to give me away anyway.

 

What your example solved was smoke related.  They couldn't have maintained that position had the Flint been an Atlanta.

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2 hours ago, TheDreadnought said:

I agree. . . normally radar should not be able to see through islands.  On the other hand, it also ought to have more range and be always on.  So let's set the realistic properties of radar aside for a second and talk about it as a video game consumable.

 

As implemented, radar is good for the game.  Island camping DDs, cruisers (and even battleships these days!) are the bane of fun gameplay.  They promote a static, camping environment that makes for a boring game.  A naval game should not be about hiding behind rocks and sniping at other players who show themselves.  If you want to do that, go play tanks, or COD or something.

 

Last night I discovered how effective radar can be at punishing island campers.  I was in my Baltimore.  An enemy Flint and Baltimore had pushed up to an island in the middle and were sitting completely still.  When some of my team moved up on the flanks, the Flint popped smoke and they continued to sit there.  I drove my Baltimore up to the opposite side of the island, and activated my radar.  My team quickly obliterated the Baltimore, and I drove around the island and blasted the Flint into scrap (my first Flint kill!)

 

This is exactly what needs to happen to island campers.

 

Cruisers and destroyers are supposed to be a fast-moving, dynamic part of the game.  They're supposed to use their low visibility to contest caps, flank enemies, and hunt each other.  When they see each other combat is supposed to be fast and brutal.  If they get caught out in the open, DDs and  many CLs (which CLs should have no business engaging battleships) have smoke to conceal themselves with, which should be used to escape. . . not invisifire.  But one problem at a time I suppose.

 

Instead of learning how to play that way, people want to turn DDs and CLs into land-based defensive turrets to the detriment of gameplay.  Radar, as implemented, is a great way of punishing these players for making the game boring.  I had great fun seeing them get slaughtered last night.  I think I have a new mission for my Baltimore.

 

As a side note, the only excuse for island camping is as a short term tactic to remain hidden to surprise a ship coming around the island.  They should never know you're there to even think of using radar.  Slowly sailing back and forth and shooting at a ship some distance away deserves to get radared.

83ihAzL.gif

Bait thread 100%

Edited by tcbaker777
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5 minutes ago, KmsH44 said:

 

Spoiler

IMG_2158.thumb.JPG.0874ec8be73d21419988947a10fffe32.JPG

 

 

Does it count as dodging the bait if you've still posted in the thread?

 

But yeah, I don't think Radar really does anything about island camping. Unlike smoke, if you're hiding behind an island, being "detected" still means you've got a nice big rock to hide behind, and if they needed Radar to spot you then clearly nobody has line of sight on you around the big rock. At most, it opens you up to retaliation from anybody who can shoot over your island as long as you're spotted for them to lock on to. I mean, when I do my Fort impression at A cap on Estuary in Atlanta, it's not spotting me that's the issue; it's hitting me back without having rainbow arcs of your own.

 

And of course there's also the issues people have when it's the Radar ships that are being island campers. Like, uh, Atlanta at A cap on Estuary. Although I don't actually need Radar for that most of the time; I have allied DDs for that...

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2 hours ago, TheDreadnought said:

I agree. . . normally radar should not be able to see through islands.  On the other hand, it also ought to have more range and be always on.  So let's set the realistic properties of radar aside for a second and talk about it as a video game consumable.

 

As implemented, radar is good for the game.  Island camping DDs, cruisers (and even battleships these days!) are the bane of fun gameplay.  They promote a static, camping environment that makes for a boring game.  A naval game should not be about hiding behind rocks and sniping at other players who show themselves.  If you want to do that, go play tanks, or COD or something.

 

Last night I discovered how effective radar can be at punishing island campers.  I was in my Baltimore.  An enemy Flint and Baltimore had pushed up to an island in the middle and were sitting completely still.  When some of my team moved up on the flanks, the Flint popped smoke and they continued to sit there.  I drove my Baltimore up to the opposite side of the island, and activated my radar.  My team quickly obliterated the Baltimore, and I drove around the island and blasted the Flint into scrap (my first Flint kill!)

 

This is exactly what needs to happen to island campers.

 

Cruisers and destroyers are supposed to be a fast-moving, dynamic part of the game.  They're supposed to use their low visibility to contest caps, flank enemies, and hunt each other.  When they see each other combat is supposed to be fast and brutal.  If they get caught out in the open, DDs and  many CLs (which CLs should have no business engaging battleships) have smoke to conceal themselves with, which should be used to escape. . . not invisifire.  But one problem at a time I suppose.

 

Instead of learning how to play that way, people want to turn DDs and CLs into land-based defensive turrets to the detriment of gameplay.  Radar, as implemented, is a great way of punishing these players for making the game boring.  I had great fun seeing them get slaughtered last night.  I think I have a new mission for my Baltimore.

 

As a side note, the only excuse for island camping is as a short term tactic to remain hidden to surprise a ship coming around the island.  They should never know you're there to even think of using radar.  Slowly sailing back and forth and shooting at a ship some distance away deserves to get radared.

What you're saying makes no sense at all. If they were in a position where they could be "obilerated" by your team by being spotted by radar, they weren't island camping, they were smoke camping. Island camping is using a ship with a higher shell trajectory to fire at an enemy or multiple enemies with lower ones, allowing yourself to keep a constant damage output while being shielded from return fire. So by that definition, even if they were spotted they should have been shielded from gunfire by the island, if they had been using their island cover properly. And if they had been island camping, they wouldn't have needed the smoke. Also, when you say that island camping should be punished, you fail to take into account that some ships (such as the Atlanta or the Omaha) NEED to island camp in order to be effective in the least bit. I'm not a fan of island camping either, but right now it's unavoidable for some ships in certain circumstances. 

 

You should also consider that radar going through islands promotes passive play in certain circumstances. DDs think twice about going into a cap, when they know that a cruiser could be hiding behind an island near the cap, ready to use radar. This often leads to a situation where no one goes for the caps, creating a stalemate where no one attempts to push.

 

Overall, I'd say that you're commenting on something you're not qualified to comment on. You don't seem to have fully understood what island camping is, and why it may be necessary. You only have 24 battles in DDs, and you don't understand how landmass penetrating radar effects destroyers. So I don't know, your opinion won't really seem valid until you've played at least a couple of games in high tier destroyers

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3 hours ago, Kerrec said:

That's funny, because I have no issue with a Radar ship that is out in the open, moving around, where they can be spotted and shot at. I don't even have a problem if said radar ship is in smoke, using their radar.  If I can at the very least blind fire into smoke to hope to hit and destroy the ship that is lighting me up, that's fair game to me.

My problem are the radar ships that park behind islands, near a cap, and wait for the cap to flip to pop their radar.  They can't be seen, they can't be shot, yet they are influencing an entire cap or flank.

So from my experience, the very thing you claim radar fixes, is in my experience, the problem with radar.  They use it while hidden and not moving, where they can't be seen or countered at all.

 

^^^^^ This. Hits the nail on the head

3 hours ago, TheDreadnought said:

I don't think I've ever encountered somebody using it that way.  If it happens, it's only a very small slice of the population.

 

Meanwhile, the other form of island camping is rampant.

 

All the time. So much so I stopped playing randoms like a year ago. When I do, its low tier so as not to encounter that crap. Its a cheesy crutch that gets abused. Yeah I know, work around it. I play the game to have fun, not be mad. Radar in its current form makes me mad. Realism has nothing to do with it...............................

 

 

45 minutes ago, tcbaker777 said:

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Bait thread 100%

 

^^^Pretty much.................

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The camping issue could be easily solved. The harsh reality of the ocean is that it moves and if your ship isnt moving, your ship is at the mercy of the currents, waves and wind. Large warships fought at high speed because it makes for a more stable gun platform, the pitching and rolling is less severe at medium to high speed. At top speeds pitching becomes more of a problem for smaller ships as they tend to 'leap' out of the water in even minor sea swells.

 

So the solution to camping is that if your ship is moving at 1/4 speed you incur an accuracy penalty. If you are stopped or in reverse (this is a bit of a reality argument tho) the penalty is worse. Ships in reverse get a crazy vibration, ships changing from forward to reverse vibrate significantly....even todays cruise ships with an IPS drive system will shake noticeably when switching from forward to reverse.

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