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Radar - Fun and Engaging? Or absolutely poor implementation of a mechanic which should not be in it's current state?

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All it needs is LoS requirement. Then I would be perfectly okay with it. They could even buff the range a little bit.

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Give it a start delay like smoke and it could be better.  Let who ever is in the radius know that in 3 seconds they will be spotted.

 

To be completely honest, I don't see the big issue surrounding radar.  It is strong yes, but why complain now and not nearly as much in between the time it was released to now.   Only a few more ships have gotten radar from the original implementation on Russian ships.  With the shift of the Radar Mod to a better slot, it is slightly more annoying now to be spotted for much longer, but in most cases you should be out before the duration of the radar.

 

I will admit I find myself completely caught out by radar sometimes and it is annoying, but paying attention to your positioning quickly solves that issue.  If you are 6km from a DM, someone is doing something wrong.  Either the DM is over extended or you are and to get to within 6km of the DM, the enemy DD's are either behind the DM or just somewhere else all together.  At 8km you begin to play a somewhat risky game.  At that point you should have spotted the rest or at least the majority of the enemies on that side.  BB's and other cruisers are detected from much further than the DM, at which point you should probably start turning around.  Once you've gotten the initial spot, then you know roughly where the enemy will be for the next 2-3 minutes.  If the DM radars as soon as you spot him and you sail into the radar radius, you have to just turn and run.  You shouldn't die, and then you don't have to worry about being spotted for the next few minutes.  This is somewhat the same for the Moskva.  If you are within his radar range, you may not necessarily be too close, but a Moskva has to be pretty far forward to radar a cap.

 

It is annoying that it goes through islands, but at the same time, mindfulness and positioning is key.  If you look at the minimap and see what islands you might get radar spotted from, then position yourself to either have an out or be close to an island so that the enemy can't hit you.

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Radar sucks and the fact that they're buffing it is only making things worse.

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1 hour ago, AhosChaos said:

Give it a start delay like smoke and it could be better.  Let who ever is in the radius know that in 3 seconds they will be spotted.

 

To be completely honest, I don't see the big issue surrounding radar.  It is strong yes, but why complain now and not nearly as much in between the time it was released to now.   Only a few more ships have gotten radar from the original implementation on Russian ships.  With the shift of the Radar Mod to a better slot, it is slightly more annoying now to be spotted for much longer, but in most cases you should be out before the duration of the radar.

 

I will admit I find myself completely caught out by radar sometimes and it is annoying, but paying attention to your positioning quickly solves that issue.  If you are 6km from a DM, someone is doing something wrong.  Either the DM is over extended or you are and to get to within 6km of the DM, the enemy DD's are either behind the DM or just somewhere else all together.  At 8km you begin to play a somewhat risky game.  At that point you should have spotted the rest or at least the majority of the enemies on that side.  BB's and other cruisers are detected from much further than the DM, at which point you should probably start turning around.  Once you've gotten the initial spot, then you know roughly where the enemy will be for the next 2-3 minutes.  If the DM radars as soon as you spot him and you sail into the radar radius, you have to just turn and run.  You shouldn't die, and then you don't have to worry about being spotted for the next few minutes.  This is somewhat the same for the Moskva.  If you are within his radar range, you may not necessarily be too close, but a Moskva has to be pretty far forward to radar a cap.

 

It is annoying that it goes through islands, but at the same time, mindfulness and positioning is key.  If you look at the minimap and see what islands you might get radar spotted from, then position yourself to either have an out or be close to an island so that the enemy can't hit you.

I agree whole heartedly but issue is some people find issue in having to play mindful of your opponents and what they might have to counter you

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Radar is easy to counter by maintaining a safe distance.

The thing that most DD players don't realize, is that you don't have to cap in the early game, where you don't know where the red radar ships are.
The only thing you have to do is prevent the reds from capping.

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I must ask something for those crying about radar: what ELSE would you give cruisers in it's place in order to hunt down and fight destroyers? You must give something as radar is DESPERATELY needed by cruisers in order to do their damn job. Until you poor sods can give a valid replacement that would not be an outright nerf back to the days that DDs could sail about utterly unseen by their hard counter then I will fight against you every step of the way. 

 

 

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radar is pretty much situational and easy to avoid yet DD's keep sailing in anyway knowing that cruisers is their counter and not fearing them enough

Edited by Ajatcho

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It's currently a broken mechanic.

 

Get behind island, wait for cap counter to start moving, hit radar, DD loses half their health at least, collect gobs of spotting damage.

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2 hours ago, MrDeaf said:

Radar is easy to counter by maintaining a safe distance.

The thing that most DD players don't realize, is that you don't have to cap in the early game, where you don't know where the red radar ships are.
The only thing you have to do is prevent the reds from capping.

Don't play stupid. 

 

How exactly do you "prevent the reds from capping" if you arn't in the cap yourself?

 

Yes, you could be in a Missouri/Des Moines/Des Moines division, something that should come with a 1 hour ban, and keep caps permaspotted from behind an island. 

 

I've been patient in my radar ships and been killed by patient radar ships island camping for several minutes. What then? We don't cap anything because the enemy New Orleans hasn't been spotted all game?

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30 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

Don't play stupid. 

 

How exactly do you "prevent the reds from capping" if you arn't in the cap yourself?

 

Yes, you could be in a Missouri/Des Moines/Des Moines division, something that should come with a 1 hour ban, and keep caps permaspotted from behind an island. 

 

I've been patient in my radar ships and been killed by patient radar ships island camping for several minutes. What then? We don't cap anything because the enemy New Orleans hasn't been spotted all game?

Explain what can be put in radar's place or will help cruisers in conjunction with a gutted radar. Until you can do that all I'm seeing is foolish salt. 

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First we complained about ships firing from smoke with no counter.  Then we complained about stealth firing.  Actually we complained about both simultaneously.  Radar was implemented to help with both.  We complained about radar.  Now stealth firing is gone and radar is about to be tweaked along with smoke.  I'm sure we'll complain about those changes as well.

 

I think radar may not be fine as it's implemented, and itneeds to be on fewer ships.  I don't know the fix though.  One fix breaks another mechanic.

 

The moral here is be careful what you complain about.  WG doesn't do things in half measures.  It's one extreme to the other.

Edited by NoZoupForYou
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38 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

Don't play stupid. 

 

How exactly do you "prevent the reds from capping" if you arn't in the cap yourself?

 

Yes, you could be in a Missouri/Des Moines/Des Moines division, something that should come with a 1 hour ban, and keep caps permaspotted from behind an island. 

 

I've been patient in my radar ships and been killed by patient radar ships island camping for several minutes. What then? We don't cap anything because the enemy New Orleans hasn't been spotted all game?

Des Moines are the worst at this.  There always seems to be one that has done nothing all round, hiding behind islands just waiting to use its radar at the very end.

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4 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

First we complained about ships firing from smoke with no counter.  Then we complained about stealth firing.  Actually we complained about both simultaneously.  Radar was implemented to help with both.  We complained about radar.  Now stealth firing is gone and radar is about to be tweaked along with smoke.  I'm sure we'll complain about those changes as well.

 

I think radar may not be fine as it's implemented, and itneeds to be on fewer ships.  I don't know the fix though.  One fix breaks another mechanic.

 

The moral here is be careful what you complain about.  WG doesn't do things in half measures.  It's one extreme to the other.

Very much this, I'm not a fan of radar in it's current instance (and I have the mo) but I cannot personally think of a way to let CA/CLs actually deal with DDs other than this unfortunately broken system. (that's why I'm not a game dev)

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1 hour ago, Raptor_alcor said:

I must ask something for those crying about radar: what ELSE would you give cruisers in it's place in order to hunt down and fight destroyers? You must give something as radar is DESPERATELY needed by cruisers in order to do their damn job. Until you poor sods can give a valid replacement that would not be an outright nerf back to the days that DDs could sail about utterly unseen by their hard counter then I will fight against you every step of the way. 

 

 

 

But there is a fine line in being too damned effective in it's job. These people going "stay a safe distance", how can I when a cruiser that isn't spotted behind an island, therefore no range knowledge, or just popped out from behind one pops it? The ships I see in tier 6 have ranges from effectively 8.5-11.7 km spotting range. At best, except for glorious soviet war machine, range about 3 knots faster, maybe 4. And some like Shinonome even with boost only just match that. And DD survivability is basically based around stealth, and because an island is in the way you cruisers get to see any ship, we don't get to see you as a team lays waste to things you spot? While you cannot become unspotted because magic radar through the island. I'm not even a DD main, I just bought a Belfast when they had that sail, even I think it's too much. Normally, most DD's when they just become spotted, can try to flee out of range unless it's a faster DD, Hydro even is short enough range to flee. Your 1km in the radar range of a ship you don't know is there, odds are you are screwed, let alone more than that.

 

Either it needs a range nerf that's better than Hydro but not this insanity, it needs to be line of sight so ships in general can try and avoid it, or it needs a counter itself that buys a ship, namely DD's, a couple seconds to try and escape.

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2 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

 

 

Either it needs a range nerf that's better than Hydro but not this insanity, it needs to be line of sight so ships in general can try and avoid it, or it needs a counter itself that buys a ship, namely DD's, a couple seconds to try and escape.

TBF I'd rather radar get replaced with something more effective but radar is currently here to stay and nerfing it will just mean CA/CLs need something MORE alongside radar to help them hunt down DDs. I disagree that it needs a counter because it was added to cruisers FOR A REASON. 

 

Edit: by more effective I mean something that can counter DDs but does not do so in the disgusting manner that radar does now. 

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33 minutes ago, Raptor_alcor said:

Explain what can be put in radar's place or will help cruisers in conjunction with a gutted radar. Until you can do that all I'm seeing is foolish salt. 

Easy. Make cruisers not explode when a BB looks at them.

 

Avoiding cruisers in a DD is a massive PITA when they have WASD hacks enabled.

 

What limits them is BBs LOLpenning them for 2/3 of their health.

 

At the least, Radar needs LoS restrictions.

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AP bombs were added for a reason, smoke was added for a reason, Saipan was added for a reason, 1000 pound bombs were added for a reason, Manual Drops were added for a reason, doesn't change anything. Were not replacing any of those with something new, they've been changed or left alone. There is nothing you are going to add that makes sense in game context to replace radar that can help spot the IJN and at upper tiers, everything that can stealth torp. Which basically amounts to a solution of no solution. They've buffed/nerfed consumables in the past, and so we can not magically make this exempt. Make it a specialized Hydro, so it gets a range buff just not this big, Make it require LoS like ship spotting normally does so, like all the people keep wanting to say, we can try and maintain a safe range, or make use of cover to try and escape, or give us some kind of counter, seeing as smoke was meant to hide a DD from cruisers that spotted it having a clear shot given the DD's low health and Radar now counters the counter entirely. They've left broken mechanics like manual drop and strafing in so long and look at the wonders that's done for CV's - Tier 4-5 now exemplifies the issue since alpha of fighter imbalance especially Bogue AS with it finally removed there, AA buffed to a point IJN became the meta due to DB losses against already low damage, and all the rest of the changes made around it.

 

The only other remote ideas that come to mind are a skill/modernization that increases Hydro range to 7-8km max, though that'll send the DD crowd into a tizzy because now torps are spotted sooner/at launch, and completely scrap Radar or make it that Radar spotting only shows some kind of vague outline of the ship to players that would be harder to shoot at till someone has line of sight spotting against it. Which at least then means if it's still harder to shoot at them a DD can try dropping smoke to better throw off aim at least and not be auto deleted once everything turns on it. 

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I have no problem with radar. I've been burned by it and I've burned others with it. Certainly much more of the former than the latter.

But actually I do have a problem with it, but it's not what you think.

Why doesn't radar......detect planes!?

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4 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

Easy. Make cruisers not explode when a BB looks at them.

 

Avoiding cruisers in a DD is a massive PITA when they have WASD hacks enabled.

 

What limits them is BBs LOLpenning them for 2/3 of their health.

 

At the least, Radar needs LoS restrictions.

 

Still doesn't help cruisers do their job of actually finding and killing the destroyers who, before radar, were utterly blind and helpless to do anything to any destroyer player worth their salt. As a BB main I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more durability for cruisers but that still doesn't help the vision issue of DDs being able to plop into smoke and just hide or DDs generally being faster and more stealthy than CA/CL. 

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6 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

smoke was meant to hide a DD from cruisers that spotted it having a clear shot given the DD's low health

So, giving someone a magic button that utterly negates the ability for a counter to do it's job is acceptable and a magic button that negates the first magic button is not? I'm seeing a bit of a problem here. I would never ask for a button on a battleship that'd magically negate anything and everything a destroyer could do to me and I wouldn't personally tolerate a button on a cruiser that negated my shells. Yet destroyers are allowed to have this button that renders them utterly invisible until you get within 2 km (5km for sonar) leaving the cruiser open to constant attacks from the destroyer and others while it tries to do it's job? 

Smoke is being nerfed soon ish which'll solve some of the problem (no more super stelth pew pewing for cruisers and battleships) but still leaves radar as the only viable option to counter smoke and let a cruiser actually do it's job. Go take a pensacola and try to DD hunt as is your job, take a mogami and try it, you'll just die trying to do what you are supposed to do according to wargaming because all you have is hydro which is simply not enough against a ship that is stealthier and often faster than you. 

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8 minutes ago, Raptor_alcor said:

 

Still doesn't help cruisers do their job of actually finding and killing the destroyers who, before radar, were utterly blind and helpless to do anything to any destroyer player worth their salt. As a BB main I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more durability for cruisers but that still doesn't help the vision issue of DDs being able to plop into smoke and just hide or DDs generally being faster and more stealthy than CA/CL. 

Honestly, as a used-to-be BB main I don't find Cruiser durability an issue.    The RN CA line has taught me so much about CA mechanics and survival, I.e. Use of terrain, concealment and avoiding putting yourself on a position to get spanked while still remaining at the front of the fight.

 

 

I think the best thing for the game right now will be deepwater torps.  Here's why:

 

It will allow CAs to hunt DDs how they need to with less fear of DD torps.  It makes DDs deadlier against BBs, which overpopulate the game, while making them less a threat to CAs, as the torps will theoretically pass underneath.  This allows CAs to do their job.

 

 

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ITT: Clueless bads calling for smoke nerfs because their cruiser can't one shot a DD. Well why can a BB then? DDs have it hard enough engaging period. Play one before calling for nerfs.

Edited by MrSoLiDIcE

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10 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

Honestly, as a used-to-be BB main I don't find Cruiser durability an issue.    The RN CA line has taught me so much about CA mechanics and survival, I.e. Use of terrain, concealment and avoiding putting yourself on a position to get spanked while still remaining at the front of the fight.

 

 

I think the best thing for the game right now will be deepwater torps.  Here's why:

 

It will allow CAs to hunt DDs how they need to with less fear of DD torps.  It makes DDs deadlier against BBs, which overpopulate the game, while making them less a threat to CAs, as the torps will theoretically pass underneath.  This allows CAs to do their job.

 

 

 

It is not that often that I die by the torpedoes of a destroyer in my cruiser. Wouldn't it be better if the DD player can choose the depth firing mode before launching, thus make it in an ingame choice without having to reload? 
Three kinds of depths, with different detectabilities.

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