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NotSynpax

The real reason for the WoWs decline

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7 minutes ago, Crucis said:

The fact that any game where people are playing against other people is by default competitive.  That's a FACT!!!  If you're not playing such a game competitively, then you're just one of those yutzs who think that the best way to play volleyball is to see how long you can keep the ball in the air.  :Smile_facepalm:  I have little sympathy for that sort of "player".

 

...nah rather just have fun bro

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3 minutes ago, AraAragami said:

This head-in-the-sand elitist attitude isn't good for the game as a whole, you know.

Given that I'm barely above a 50% WR player, I'm hardly an elitist.  I just don't suffer whiny little snowflakes gladly.

 

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26 minutes ago, Crucis said:

No, you don't "enjoy it" because you can't hack it.  If you had more talent, you'd have no issues with +/-2.  Stop blaming MM for your lack of talent.

 

The problem with your tunnel vision is that if there is a unicum T8 division on one said and a unicum T10 division on the other side, the match is over before it started.  The T8s have very little chance to compete.  And T8 carriers have no business going against T10 ships where their planes are melted before half way to their approach.

 

And Crucis, I'd be careful with your tone and comments about skill.  You have over 7000! games played and your performance has flatlined as just an average player.  You are not growing and developing your 'skills.'

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4 minutes ago, Elegant_Winter said:

They're playing the game as it's meant to be played, but they want to have fun more than they want to win. They still want to win, of course.

Anyway, accepting +/-2 doesn't make you tougher or whatever than someone who wants +/-1.

I profoundly disagree in every way with this post.

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1 minute ago, Crucis said:

I profoundly disagree in every way with this post.

Feel free to elaborate.

Edited by Elegant_Winter

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3 minutes ago, VGLance said:

 

The problem with your tunnel vision is that if there is a unicum T8 division on one said and a unicum T10 division on the other side, the match is over before it started.  The T8s have very little chance to compete.  And T8 carriers have no business going against T10 ships where their planes are melted before half way to their approach.

 

And Crucis, I'd be careful with your tone and comments about skill.  You have over 7000! games played and your performance has flatlined as just an average player.  You are not growing and developing your 'skills.'

VG, the difference is that I can hold my own when I'm bottom tier and I don't run away crying for mommy to come fix MM.

My "tone" reflects that I'm fed up with these annoying, self-entitled, whining special snowflakes!!!

 

As for your unicum division example, the problem there isn't MM.  It's the very presence of divisions in the first place.

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6 minutes ago, Elegant_Winter said:

Feel free to elaborate.

Not really necessary.  It should be pretty clear that I feel pretty much just the opposite.

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On 8/28/2017 at 4:46 PM, NotSynpax said:

When I started playing a year and a half ago, a family member introduced me not just to the game but to a clan. Every night they'd have run team battles with a deep bench, rotating people in and out, and we'd often have enough to field two teams (14 players or more). It was a lot of fun and very intense, especially when we faced off against each other. 

 

My best moments in video gaming (and I'm nearing forty) all happened in WoWs team battles when I, three times, led my team to victory against a team of fellow clanmates. 

 

However, since team battles have been removed, everyone moved onto something else. We still hang out in channel together but they're playing stuff like Arc. Hearts of Iron, Empyerion, etc. Sometimes a few of them jump into ships, but I'm the only one who plays it regularly like we use to. And when the others jump in, they often quit soon after in frustration at the poor gameplay in randoms. 

So think about that: at least fourteen people here with team battles. Now just one without. 

 

That's really what's killing this game. You can say there isn't a player population for team battles - but it's the other way around. Team battles are what get you strapped in day after day. And, yes, there are some outside organized leagues, but none of them have the ease of play of the built in team battles --- it isn't even close. It was such fun to grab five of your best buds and a couple mercs and go to battle while trash talking on Team Speak. 

 

 

 

Personally, with the I'Chase debacle and others, the release (which never should have been) of the King, Premiums, Nerf this, buff that, Promises, Promises, Promises, etc. and don't forget MM, as long as people, who I won't mention,  "justify their existence" the game won't grow anymore than it has. If you got a paycheck coming in, (who cares what the public thinks) that's all that matters.

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2 minutes ago, Crucis said:

VG, the difference is that I can hold my own when I'm bottom tier and I don't run away crying for mommy to come fix MM.

My "tone" reflects that I'm fed up with these annoying, self-entitled, whining special snowflakes!!!

As for your unicum division example, the problem there isn't MM.  It's the very presence of divisions in the first place.

It's not about whether or not you can hold your own. Again, it's about which is more enjoyable. You're bent on turning this conversation into a competition. It's not a competition. It's about which is more enjoyable. You're not better than those who want +/-1 because you're willing to accept +/-2. If +/-1 is more enjoyable - if players like it more - why shouldn't it be implemented?

Also, a straightforward desire to make the game more enjoyable isn't entitlement. It only looks like entitlement if you view everything as a competition, where you either adapt or fail.

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8 minutes ago, Crucis said:

VG, the difference is that I can hold my own when I'm bottom tier and I don't run away crying for mommy to come fix MM.

My "tone" reflects that I'm fed up with these annoying, self-entitled, whining special snowflakes!!!

 

As for your unicum division example, the problem there isn't MM.  It's the very presence of divisions in the first place.

 

You keep accusing people of being "snowflakes" but I'm starting to think you don't know what that word means.

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9 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Not really necessary.  It should be pretty clear that I feel pretty much just the opposite.

I think you're feeling pretty entitled to the status quo. Not everything has to stay the same simply because that's what you want.

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1 hour ago, Elegant_Winter said:

I'll tell you the real reason. There's no +/-1 matchmaking. You've all been enlightened.

Dealt with it. -/+2 matchmaking in my opinion is actually quite fun. Who cares if your are low tier when you do what you are supposed to do. Play the game regardless of advantage or disadvantage. When it is all over, that feeling of accomplishment is the reward. The higher the challenge the better the satisfaction.  

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Just now, Dictonary said:

Dealt with it. -/+2 matchmaking in my opinion is actually quite fun. Who cares if your are low tier when you do what you are supposed to do. Play the game regardless of advantage or disadvantage. When it is all over, that feeling of accomplishment is the reward. The higher the challenge the better the satisfaction.  

That's a splendid mentality you've developed in order to adapt to the environment of WoWs. I don't think it's ideal to do that when there's a better alternative, however.

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2 minutes ago, Dictonary said:

Dealt with it. -/+2 matchmaking in my opinion is actually quite fun. Who cares if your are low tier when you do what you are supposed to do. Play the game regardless of advantage or disadvantage. When it is all over, that feeling of accomplishment is the reward. The higher the challenge the better the satisfaction.  

Hard to feel accomplished when your tier 5 cruiser been removed from the match by one of the five 16-inch-armed battleships on the enemy team.

 

You're literally defending sealclubbing, you know.

Edited by AraAragami
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Just now, AraAragami said:

Hard to feel accomplished when your tier 5 cruiser been removed from the match by one of the five 16-inch-armed battleships on the enemy team.

Then don't expose your broadside and dodge the shells. Exploit every mistake the enemy makes, that is one way to reduce salt. Being singled out by a tier 7 BB could be considered one. Learn from previous mistakes and learn not to repeat them. 

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Just now, Dictonary said:

Then don't expose your broadside and dodge the shells. Exploit every mistake the enemy makes, that is one way to reduce salt. Being singled out by a tier 7 BB could be considered one. Learn from previous mistakes and learn not to repeat them. 

Have you given any real thought to the possibility that +/-1 is more enjoyable than +/-2?

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1 minute ago, Dictonary said:

Then don't expose your broadside and dodge the shells

 

It's been a long time since you played Emerald, Furutaka, Omaha, Konigsberg, or Kirov, huh?

 

A Nagato or Colorado, even Hood and Gneisnau's 15-inchers can lolpen any tier 5 cruiser through the bow or stern and citadel them regardless of angle. It's got nothing to do with being broadside.

 

I've yet to see any actual reason why +/-1 matchmaking would be detrimental to the game, aside from that it impacts match variety by narrowing the number of ships that can be in any given match-- which is, of course, fixed over time by more lines being added.

 

Meanwhile one of the major benefits is that it makes ships, especially carriers, far easier for WG to balance. Less work for the devs, less frustration for players due to balance issues... Obviously not worth it, right?

Edited by AraAragami
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Just now, Elegant_Winter said:

Have you given any real thought to the possibility that +/-1 is more enjoyable than +/-2?

Maybe but still, it is fine the way it is. No need to change something that works decently.

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Just now, AraAragami said:

 

It's been a long time since you played Emerald, Furutaka, Omaha, Konigsberg, or Kirov, huh?

 

A Nagato or Colorado, even Hood and Gneisnau's 15-inchers can lolpen any tier 5 cruiser through the bow or stern and citadel them regardless of angle. It's got nothing to do with being broadside.

A Furutaka's hull is narrow enough that is is hard to hit it. An dfor the others, I can not say since I have not played them. However, there are time when you need to do a tactical retreat. It maybe honorless but hey you can come back and get revenge. 

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11 minutes ago, Dictonary said:

Dealt with it. -/+2 matchmaking in my opinion is actually quite fun. Who cares if your are low tier when you do what you are supposed to do. Play the game regardless of advantage or disadvantage. When it is all over, that feeling of accomplishment is the reward. The higher the challenge the better the satisfaction.  

Question. Would you like to see the game grow?

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3 minutes ago, Dictonary said:

A Furutaka's hull is narrow enough that is is hard to hit it. An dfor the others, I can not say since I have not played them. However, there are time when you need to do a tactical retreat. It maybe honorless but hey you can come back and get revenge. 

 

I already listed benefits for +/-1, including less manpower/time/money spent on balancing efforts and less player frustration as a result of balance issues. It would also stimulate premium sales, as I'm 100% certain tier 5 and 6 premium sales took a dive as a result of the current state of matchmaking. So that's even more money in WG's pockets for such a change.

 

What benefits to WG are there for +/-2?

Edited by AraAragami
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The gains for moving to +1/-1 far outweighs the benefits of sticking to +2/-2.  Doesn't matter if WG or Crucis doesn't see it.  WG will likely not change it just like they can't seem to take 5 minutes to widen the name column on the post battle report.  People see what they want to see and are blind to what they want to be blind to.  Crucis' mind is set.  He's made that clear.

 

One of the biggest reasons to switch to +1/-1 is the increase in occurrences of players automatically quitting to port or going afk when they load a game where they are bottom tier.  Not to mention the impact it is having on the attrition rate all together.  Most people on the forum know how much Elegant Winter and I disagree on virtually everything.  But this is a matter of fun.  Skilled players fully capable of handling themselves at bottom tier, far better than Crucis can, do not find it fun.  In fact, they find it very far from fun.  It's like pieces on a chess board.  Would you rather be the pawn with very limited capability or a knight, bishop or rook that have a better chance at influencing the match?

 

Most players find the latter to be more fun, and it has nothing to do with skill.  Conflating the two is an act of misrepresentation.

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26 minutes ago, AraAragami said:

 

I already listed benefits for +/-1, including less manpower/time/money spent on balancing efforts and less player frustration as a result of balance issues. It would also stimulate premium sales, as I'm 100% certain tier 5 and 6 premium sales took a dive as a result of the current state of matchmaking. So that's even more money in WG's pockets for such a change.

 

What benefits to WG are there for +/-2?

Good point.

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6 hours ago, Skpstr said:

Hardcore strategy people aren't playing this game, except maybe to relax, because there isn't a meaty enough strategy element. Twitch gamers aren't playing this, because their reflexes don't pay dividends.

I think that you hit on a very excellent point. I prefer strategy games for the most part and I really don't love WoWS because of the "FPS" feel to it. I really want to love the game, I just can not. WoWS does fall in the middle of these two types of games, maybe it will never see the numbers of players because it really isn't either one of these common game types and will only appeal to a niche market. Really a great point Skpstr, one that makes my feelings about the game more clear.

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3 hours ago, AraAragami said:

What benefits to WG are there for +/-2?

Well they have stated that there are essentially three reasons they want to stick with it. The decreased queue time for upper tier ships. I get this one, makes sense. The second reason is for "ship diversity". I think this is stupid but whatever. The third reason is that +2/-2 is not all that bad and players learn to manage it. Some players will do just fine, just like some players are good enough to take their Clemson against a Yamato but that should hardly be standard practice. There are far more average and below average players in the game than "good" players. This totally discounts new players who are still learning the ropes. Some may adapt and overcome, many will just quit out of frustration. Another defense of +2/-2 was that going to +1/-1 would destroy stats for better players and move them to more average. I can see this happening because they will no longer be able to farm much weaker opponents in the game. Not talking just skill but fighting a ship that is 2 tiers less than you (assuming one vs one) gives an obvious advantage that can be difficult to overcome. The thing about +2/-2 is that better players like it, they can handle being outclassed or under tiered. Average and below average players only like it when they are top tier. Really don't see a decent resolution to this mess.

I forgot one. Some people think that newer players will want to either run up the line so they won't be bottom tier or they will buy higher tier premium ships to help them in the game. Personally I don't see that but it has been suggested in the forums.

Edited by Taylor3006

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