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Thunderstruck2016

Balance changes to the Belfast

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So, with WG announcing that they are pulling the Konig Albert from the store I thought I would bring up a case for nerfing the Belfast.  When the ship was launched, it was immediately apparent to the CC's that reviewed it that the ship was going to be strong.  A Tier 7 light cruiser with Radar, Smoke, and Hydro?  The fact was further exploited in Season 6 of Ranked Battles.  There were ways around it (I used Shiratsuyu and its 10km torpedoes with reload booster to force ships to leave smoke) but most games were won based around the number of a single ship in each battle.  The ship is still the scourge of Randoms to DDs and BB players alike and is probably the clearest example of a Pay to Win ship in WoWs.   

 

Disclaimer:

1) This look into my opinions of re-balancing this ship do NOT take into account the planned IFHE (where it is a -8% fire chance penalty for calibers above 140mm) or smoke changes (where there within area (i think 6km) where you will be spotted if firing in smoke).  Those are blanket changes across the spectrum and would effect the Belfast, but it would also hurt every other ship class

2) I'm not sure if it is a WG policy but I know there is a trend of not messing with Premium vehicles after they are released.  They have gotten around it by messing with other things that is not specific to a single premium ship (such as the proposed IFHE and smoke changes.  However, I would like to call [edited] on that policy as with the latest example being the Graf Zeppelin, but since that is a rare case of an extreme disaster I would also like to point out the Atlanta and Indianapolis.  The Atlanta was not introduced with Radar (it was one of the first Premiums in the game, ever) and received Radar in 0.5.9 and just recently in 0.6.8 the Indianapolis' Radar range was increased 1.4km and detection range was reduced by 1.2km.

Tl;DR Wargaming can fine tune a premium ship after it launches the only difference being these two were small buffs and what I'm suggesting is a small nerf.  

 

I for one was suprised when they said they were pulling the Konig Albert from the store.  However, that quickly changed when I looked up the statistics on Warships today.

NA Stats

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EU Stats

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RU Stats

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Asia Stats

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So what do these stats say that gives Wargaming the impression that ship needs to removed from sale.  Well for one is the above average winrate.  From the Nassau to the Konig Albert (KA) there is a 4% (7%) jump in win rate, further improved considering the 4% that has on the other tier 3 Battleships.  Damage is also an increase in 10k from Nassau and another 10k to KA.  

 

Reasons on these numbers, well for one the number of battles played is significantly smaller (even Nassau is less than half of the other two BBs) due to it being a premium ship.  Another reason is due to people playing the KA already know how to play BBs.  Tier 3 is the first tier with BBs (baring the Mikasa, but that is treated as a cruiser in MM) and people are still trying to figure out how to play the game.  Especially since this was taken from the beginning of the game, but even decreasing the time frame to the past 2 weeks, the numbers are not that different with the only major difference being the Kawachi and South Carolina damage numbers increase to 22k average and Win rate to ~50%.  Both of these are still very well behind the Nassau and KA.  In short, the main difference (much like how the Flint is the highest win rate cruiser, period) is the player skill.  This ship is the perfect seal clubber.  I think this is the main reason why the ship was pulled.  It is a one tier below premium (much like the Imperator Nikolai and Gremyashchy) that does not sacrifice a lot from its counterpart (Oktyabrskaya Revolutsiya and Gnevny).  

 

Note: For those that do not know, seal clubbing is where you are a higher experienced player than the people you are going against.  You have greater game knowledge and can exploit that against newer people.  Similar comparisons are a "smurf" in League of Legends.

 

That would also explain why that ship was chosen and not the Belfast.  You can't seal club and Tier 7. 

 

As a business model, World of Warships gets their money on how much the player spends on premium time, ships, and doubloons.  They can't do that if there is a ship at low tiers that is blatantly better than it's counterparts that drives away incoming players.  Granted, a counter argument would be... "Its Tier 3, they'll spend at max 20 in a tier 3 ship before moving on to the next one."  But that is still not a healthy business practice that you are willingly making a powerful ship at a low tier.  What would be the point in progressing through a tech tree if the most powerful ships are at Tier 3.

 

Now, lets look at the Belfast Stats.  

NA Stats

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EU Stats

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RU Stats

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Asia Stats

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Curious: All time stats have the Belfast having more games than the Fiji

Stated again: Disregard the Flint as needing a nerf because it is extremely exclusive (needing to get to Rank 1 three times) and cannot be bought currently for 8,200 doubloons.

 

Similar to the KA, the Belfast is 5% win rate or more than its tech tree rivals and out damages them as well.  Going to a two week data the damage is back to its familiar 10k ahead of tech tree Tier 7 cruisers.  So, how can this be curbed to be a little more in line.  As much as I would love them for, Wargaming cannot bring down the nerf hammer and smash the thing into oblivion so that its best thing about it is that it stays in port and is pretty to look at, no, that would be a bad business.  Like the Atlanta and Indianapolis, subtly is necessary.  From my experience in Ranked Season 6, the counter to a Belfast was torpedoes (16 to be exact).  Notser has stated in a YouTube video before, but the best way to get a ship out of smoke is to launch torpedoes at it.  At Tier 7, the only other ships with Radar are the Atlanta (which is not available for purchase as of 8/28) and the Indianapolis.  Both are premium ships that cost at least $35 when not on sale.  

 

A subtly solution to the Belfast is to Remove its ability to wield both Hydro and Radar.  Most players would still pick Radar because it is what makes the Belfast unique and is more effective at hunting destroyers.  That would make torpedoes more effective at dealing damage to a smoked Belfast because currently, a Belfast can remain in smoke and use Hydro for almost the entire duration of the smoke screen (from first puff to last dissipate).  

 

A different solution would be to decrease the Radar range to 8km (from 8.49km).  This would grant destroyers more room to breathe so that they can line up a Torpedo salvo against a smoked Belfast.  However, a Belfast would still be able to have Hydro so that it could spot the torpedoes sooner, but not the range to necessarily spot the Japanese, German, or US DD that launched it.

 

Although I am not a fan of the proposed IFHE change, it would be effective at nerfing the Belfast.  Unfortunately, it would be at the cost of every other 152mm or 155mm Cruiser and I do not like sweeping changes when balancing ships in this game.

 

I made this forum post not because I want to see the ship be a pretty decoration in port.  I wanted to make this post because I don't want a nerf of this ship to be at the expense of every other ship that uses IFHE.  I think there are better ways of making this ship seem less oppressive to DD and BB players alike by not changing the way it can deal damage with its guns, but by going after its utility provide a team (especially in ranked) with both concealment with smoke and knowledge with Radar.    

Edited by Thunderstruck2016

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They're not going to nerf Belfast, mostly for legal reasons. They got in hot water over on EU as I understand it for nerfing a prem as it's paid for with real money.

Only global changes would be allowed for them to get away with, not ship specific. (IE: Smoke, IFHE, Radar adjustments).

That clear, literally the best you can hope for is that it gets removed from the shop, but even then as it is, it's here to stay.

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Wulfgarn    2,009
4 minutes ago, TheGreyGhost91 said:

They're not going to nerf Belfast, mostly for legal reasons. They got in hot water over on EU as I understand it for nerfing a prem as it's paid for with real money.

Only global changes would be allowed for them to get away with, not ship specific. (IE: Smoke, IFHE, Radar adjustments)
.

That clear, literally the best you can hope for is that it gets removed from the shop, but even then as it is, it's here to stay.

 

:Smile_great:

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UltimateNewbie    139

To be honest, I don't think the case has been made regarding the Konig Albert - it's stats are better, but not a lot better, than the tech tree Nassau, the tiny number of battles in comparison to the others suggests only the most peachy-keen German BB drivers play it, and that explains the results. SC and Kawachi should be getting buffs instead. 

 

On the Belfast, I disagree that it needs nerfs, at least until after the IFHE and smoke changes that come through. Actually, I am worried about the smoke changes destroying the entire UKCL line; smoke is life for them, and 6km detection means that smoke only makes a Leanders detection go down by 2.2km. Pointless. 

 

No, if you are worried about win rates, I think the solution is just to require that Belfasts are always matched on the other team by Belfasts. WoT did this with the minimaus, so there is precedent. I'd like the same mm mirror to apply to Khabs too, and other ships with plenty of battles and very high win rates. 

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LittleWhiteMouse    16,670

Here's the magical question:  Why do you think Belfast needs to be rebalanced?  Be sure to support your answer with data!

-Edit-  And let me elabourate on the kind of data I'm looking for:  Prove that Belfast is as universally overpowered as Konig Albert was.  Find the difference between the two where one had to be redressed and he other has not.

Edited by LittleWhiteMouse
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Middcore    238
2 minutes ago, Sir_Davos_Seaworth said:

Just bump it up to Tier 8? :Smile_hiding:

 

She should have been T8 all along, makes no sense that she's not... but even changing the tiering and thus her matchmaking spread could be too close to changing a premium for WG's comfort. 

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Batwingsix    989
6 minutes ago, Fog_Repair_Ship_Akashi said:

Here is what I see. 

A1UpeFf.gif

 

There seems to be a lot of this happening these last two days

 

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Zim_Xero    83

The Belfast is in the top three ships of the T7 ship tree... not above it.  It does not require a nerf, and doing so would lower consumer confidence of premium ship buyers.  I believe they will in fact nerf it over time... by never buffing it, and by continuing to release powerful T7 ships to compete with it.   OP ships are a major problem when there is no way to counter them.  This is not the case with the Belfast.  Its achilles heel is its major power itself.  Learn how to play a Belfast and you can destroy it as it slows down to smoke, when its in smoke, and when it comes out of smoke.

Edited by Zim_Xero
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gcangel82    98
4 minutes ago, Zim_Xero said:

The Belfast is in the top three ships of the T7 ship tree... not above it.  It does not require a nerf, and doing so would lower consumer confidence of premium ship buyers.  I believe they will in fact nerf it over time... by never buffing it, and by continuing to release powerful T7 ships to compete with it.   OP ships are a major problem when there is no way to counter them.  This is not the case with the Belfast.  Its achilles heel is its major power itself.  Learn how to play a Belfast and you can destroy it as it slows down to smoke, when its in smoke, and when it comes out of smoke.

This...  And it goes for all cruisers that smoke.  Kutuzov might be the exception as it has a pretty big smoke screen.  But that is also a Achilles Heal, push the people spotting for her out  of the way.  That radar only goes so far, push the other spotting for her back, and when that ship is slowing down shoot it, stare it down in the gun view when it stops hold spot and shoot again.  I get people PO'd at me all the time for doing that.  They want to know what hack I am using, I just stared them down while they stopped and fired again and if they didn't move did again.  Did that to a lot of Leanders in Ranked this season.

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Erebthoron    548
6 minutes ago, mofton said:

Nerf Nikolai into the ground and then we'll talk...

Why? The chances of meeting a Belfast in a battle is much higher then a ImpNiko. 

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BatRastardly    77

   I no longer purchase premium ships as I have no confidence that the ship I purchase will continue to have the features that caused me to spend the $$$. Time and again WG has nerfed premiums heavily using legalise like "a global change to a game mechanic". A nerf is a nerf. WG would be better off just admitting they got something wrong and somehow missed it in testing. Do the nerf, global or otherwise, and provide something in return. eg: when they stripped away a lot of concealment from the Gremy in 6.3 they could have cut the turret speed to a reasonable 15s. There will still be people who don't like the change but at least there is a pathway for the majority to live with the change. I have a lot of premiums I no longer play because they've been nerfed so heavily that, while still playable, are much less enjoyable.

   Another point, whether a given ship is OP or not is highly subjective. I do not enjoy sitting dead in the water behind an island or squatting in a small puff of smoke that screams "SEND ALL TORPS HERE" in my Belfast. I am typically seen kiting like a maniac. The Belfast is not OP for me at all. I do slightly better in my Chapayev than my Kutuzov ... does that make the Chappie OP? No.

 

   Before flaming me for "depending on stealth firing", I think all stealth firing is bad for the game ... behind islands, in smoke, or OWSF. Made dictator of the universe (unlikely) I would immediately require one to have 10 knots of forward speed to fire any weapon or to launch planes. How's that for global?

Das Bat

Edited by BatRastardly
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Erebthoron    548
1 minute ago, gcangel82 said:

This...  And it goes for all cruisers that smoke.  Kutuzov might be the exception as it has a pretty big smoke screen.  But that is also a Achilles Heal, push the people spotting for her out  of the way.  That radar only goes so far, push the other spotting for her back, and when that ship is slowing down shoot it, stare it down in the gun view when it stops hold spot and shoot again.  I get people PO'd at me all the time for doing that.  They want to know what hack I am using, I just stared them down while they stopped and fired again and if they didn't move did again.  Did that to a lot of Leanders in Ranked this season.

Yep. This is the weakness of all RN cruiser. They need to slow down because of their small smoke circle. And they attract torpedos. What makes it worse for the Belfast: She didn't have the RN heal and no torpedos. If you know there isn't any DD lurking around you can charge the smoke with a BB. There are also ships out there with radar too. The pure WR and damage number tells you nothing who plays the ship. I can imagine that a not too small number of the not so good players either didn't bought her or gave up about this ship. 

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kerensky914    1,008
23 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Here's the magical question:  Why do you think Belfast needs to be rebalanced?  Be sure to support your answer with data!

-Edit-  And let me elabourate on the kind of data I'm looking for:  Prove that Belfast is as universally overpowered as Konig Albert was.  Find the difference between the two where one had to be redressed and he other has not.

König Albert's average damage is about 10K more than NassauBelfast's average damage looks to be about 6-7K more than Fiji.  Seems comparable, right?

Consider the tier.  KA's 10K damage cushion equates to about 50% more damage than Nassau.  By comparison, Belfast's additional damage is only about 10% more than Fiji's, and one could argue that most of that cushion simply comes from being able to use HE shells and set fires.

Belfast is a powerful weapon in the right hands.  She provides a great tool kit.  My all-time greatest match was in my Belfast.  But good tactics can neutralize those tools.  For every great game in Belfast, I've had a half-dozen where I got smoked like Colorado grass.  To put it simply, a good captain is worth far more than any "overpowered" ship.

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mofton    909
9 minutes ago, Erebthoron said:

Why? The chances of meeting a Belfast in a battle is much higher then a ImpNiko. 

Partially simple brute principle, one rule for one, one for another.

Belfast should also be encountered mostly by people who are ~T7, though she'll see T5 a lot. Those people should know at least the game basics.

Imp. Nik on the other hand will see T3-T4 players who've barely started to learn the mechanics with high frequency, and clubbing them is pretty disgusting and potentially deleterious to the future of the game if they quit.

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Captain_Doll    157

I think the Konig Albert ("KA") is OP because it is located at tier 3. KA has a few "weaknesses" including poor AA and generally awful anti-DD capabilities. However, in tier 3, CVs are rarely a factor. In addition, DDs concealment vs. torpedo range is minimal. Meanwhile, the Belfast's weakness (weak armor, low HE damage) can be easily exploited at tier 7. In short, KA is OP in almost every match whereas the Belfast is only OP in certain circumstances.

Get the Belfast in a situation where it can hunt DDs without BBs or other cruisers around and it's massively OP. But when it's facing a BB and it's smoke is on cool down, then it can kiss Belfast's butt goodbye.

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kerensky914    1,008
6 minutes ago, Erebthoron said:

 I can imagine that a not too small number of the not so good players either didn't bought her or gave up about this ship. 

Yep.  They bought her thinking she's a 'push-button horse' (in equestrian circles, that's a horse who is so well-trained that you can put a beginning rider on it and they'll win stuff, because the horse knows what to do and the rider is just that, along for the ride)  and when it turned out not to be this amazing auto-win button they abandoned ship.

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LittleWhiteMouse    16,670
14 minutes ago, Captain_Doll said:

I think the Konig Albert ("KA") is OP because it is located at tier 3. KA has a few "weaknesses" including poor AA and generally awful anti-DD capabilities. However, in tier 3, CVs are rarely a factor. In addition, DDs concealment vs. torpedo range is minimal. Meanwhile, the Belfast's weakness (weak armor, low HE damage) can be easily exploited at tier 7. In short, KA is OP in almost every match whereas the Belfast is only OP in certain circumstances.

Get the Belfast in a situation where it can hunt DDs without BBs or other cruisers around and it's massively OP. But when it's facing a BB and it's smoke is on cool down, then it can kiss Belfast's butt goodbye.

You're close, but not quite there.  Good analysis though.

14 minutes ago, kerensky914 said:

Yep.  They bought her thinking she's a 'push-button horse' (in equestrian circles, that's a horse who is so well-trained that you can put a beginning rider on it and they'll win stuff, because the horse knows what to do and the rider is just that, along for the ride)  and when it turned out not to be this amazing auto-win button they abandoned ship.

Getting warmer...

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NotSynpax    43

Your analysis is invalid because it takes into account people who play ships poorly. If you want to determine what ships are OP, you'd consider their stats when in the hands of the better players. 

 

Any wallet warrior can buy a Belfast and it's not a very forgiving ship. Same with Atago. You will see a polarized performance between those who are very good with it and those who don't know what they're doing. 

 

We can get closer to a true OP analysis -- and remove some poor play clutter - by selecting for three player divisions and limiting to the previous two weeks. Here, have a look. 

What strikes me as problematic is not how well the belfast does but how poorly several other ships do (ignore that ARP Myoko -- I'm pretty sure that's just one guy). 

 

 

belfast.png

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KaptainKaybe    348

OP, premium ships are NEVER directly nerfed. The only times they are 'nerfed' is when a gameplay mechanic that they use gets nerfed. For example, many premium DDs and the open water stealth firing removal. What *does* happen is that they get placed into a sorta no-sell blacklist, like Nikolai, Gremy, and now Konig Albert. So what you should be arguing against is it being sold again. But those who have the ship get to reap the benefit for ever and ever. Just gonna have to deal with it.

 

I personally own it but never play it. I find her boring as hell.

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Erebthoron    548
24 minutes ago, mofton said:

Partially simple brute principle, one rule for one, one for another.

Belfast should also be encountered mostly by people who are ~T7, though she'll see T5 a lot. Those people should know at least the game basics.

Imp. Nik on the other hand will see T3-T4 players who've barely started to learn the mechanics with high frequency, and clubbing them is pretty disgusting and potentially deleterious to the future of the game if they quit.

Nope. The Nikolai has a good number of weaknesses. She also face often carriers at her tier. There are many DD that spam torpedos all day. She live from teamwork. If you can single out a Nikolai you can sink her. 

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