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Thunderstruck2016

Balance changes to the Belfast

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Captain_Doll    157
1 hour ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.  Now you're onto something...

 

That explains a lot. I wonder where WG wants the bell curve to sit (50%?). I would love to see how the performance data and WGs internal thoughts of which ships they think are the best balanced. It might also explain why WG struggles with balancing  CVs. Class wise, CVs are the least played, given them the least amount of data to work with. Further, CVs do not attract a lot of new players--So the bell curve may be construed in favor of experienced players. 

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Greenday4537    50
34 minutes ago, Sir_Davos_Seaworth said:

 

Why? That is almost like saying you want to nerf the Easter Bunny... You hardly ever see one. The Belfast on the other hand... 

I love my OP AF Belfast.

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LittleWhiteMouse    16,667
2 minutes ago, Captain_Doll said:

That explains a lot. I wonder where WG wants the bell curve to sit (50%?). I would love to see how the performance data and WGs internal thoughts of which ships they think are the best balanced. It might also explain why WG struggles with balancing  CVs. Class wise, CVs are the least played, given them the least amount of data to work with. Further, CVs do not attract a lot of new players--So the bell curve may be construed in favor of experienced players. 

From what I've been told (and what I'm allowed to share), Wargaming looks at a lot of stats.  They don't fixate (as the community so often does) on the overall average, but consider how well any given player can do in a ship.  Yes, a ship that grossly over performs in unicum hands is concerning, but that's only 1% of the population.  How does the ship fare in an average person's hands?  What about someone that's within the top 20% or the bottom 50%?  Each bracket like this can tell you so much about a ship, including (but not limited to):

  • What is the skill floor for this ship?
  • What's the skill ceiling?
  • At what level of skill does a player need to have before the ship "clicks"?
  • What traits (such as dramatically increased survivability or frags) occur at which player skill thresholds?

Remember how the devs have so often talked about the IJN Destroyers and how they're inconsistent until you get over a certain skill threshold and then they become very powerful?  I think this is indicative to this breakdown of statistics.

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I'll chime in a bit here again, since this actually getting really interesting with the insight into how they decide what needs balanced.

I picked up KA a month or two ago when it was on sale for like 5-8 bucks, at around 20 matches it's sitting at 56% winrate. Mind you, I'm at 51% overall, with 53% at recents. So it's probably mathematically within what one would expect +/-5% and it's often done with my Bismarck crew on bad days.

However, KA certainly feels different from the other ships at the tier. My experience with the tier 3's I'd say it's Konig Albert - Nassau - South Carolina - Myogi. The former two I found fun, the latter two made me want to drive my head into my desk often.

Sure it's anecdotal evidence, since luck varies from match to match, but KA was certainly the most consistent of the four for me, certainly felt more powerful then it's contemporaries.

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Tzarevitch    107

I think all Belfast needs is for the user to be required to make a choice between radar and smoke like the other British ships. 

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LittleWhiteMouse    16,667
1 minute ago, Tzarevitch said:

I think all Belfast needs is for the user to be required to make a choice between radar and smoke like the other British ships. 

I have long held the belief that Belfast is only overpowered in very specific situations -- namely when she's caught a destroyer away from her support.  She does this better than Atlanta because she can pop smoke and still hound a given target, making her a tremendous bully in and around cap circles.  Pulling this off though isn't as straight forward as it sounds.  It takes a definite threshold of game play understanding to pull off this trick and survive.  Many Belfasts struggle to keep their ship relevant in between smoke generation clouds.

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MrDeaf    2,458

If you want to kill a Belfast, bring your own radar cruiser with you.

There is nothing more annoying to the Belfast captain than getting radar'd itself.

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Taichunger    1,943
4 hours ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Here's the magical question:  Why do you think Belfast needs to be rebalanced?  Be sure to support your answer with data!

-Edit-  And let me elabourate on the kind of data I'm looking for:  Prove that Belfast is as universally overpowered as Konig Albert was.  Find the difference between the two where one had to be redressed and he other has not.


That's not difficult, Mouse. Here is the average damage data for the top ten players on the NA server, minimum 100 games, downloaded from Warships Today just now (I ignored the Myoko clones).

 

  Belfast Flint Fiji Myoko Shchors Algerie Indy Atlanta Yorck Pensa
1 103,077 83,066 88,016 84,094 86,956 61,333 68,283 75,947 68,852 72,337
2 102,355 80,684 86,579 72,122 83,549 58,297 67,008 74,097 63,617 72,088
3 99,367 78,363 85,558 71,296 80,749 55,374 64,373 72,657 62,902 65,088
4 97,782 76,170 83,484 71,209 78,032 53,010 63,499 71,890 60,685 63,409
5 94,986 74,644 81,287 68,653 75,127 51,893 60,241 71,762 58,524 61,727
6 94,927 74,119 80,732 68,567 74,686 51,488 59,279 71,709 57,245 61,530
7 94,735 73,076 80,611 67,949 73,036 51,482 58,380 69,247 57,126 60,005
8 94,056 72,936 79,166 67,435 72,628 50,463 56,752 68,934 56,830 59,512
9 93,252 71,066 76,862 67,148 72,224 50,236 56,270 68,261 55,392 58,876
10 93,220 69,999 76,859 66,888 71,665 49,512 54,518 66,956 55,078 58,695
11 91,105                  
12 91,041                  
13 89,777                  
14 89,356                  
15 89,227                  
16 88,742                  
17 87,983                  
18 87,621                  
19 87,563                  
20 87,483                  

 

The top ten players for each ship show, more or less, the limits of the possibilities for that ship. For example, if you get in a Myoko,  the top players average 70-80K. In Algerie, which is garbage, almost nobody breaks 60K average damage. 

 

Meanwhile, in Belfast the top players do 90-100K. Even Flint, which is a reward ship played by a limited number of very experienced, solid players, doesn't have the damage potential of Belfast. Nor are the 100K average damage players in Belfast outliers, they fit right into the data curve. 

 

Even more striking is that the Top 20 avg damage players in Belfast are all higher than any other cruiser on this list, except for one Fiji player. 

But if that is not enough, Belfast's top ten players also outperform the top ten average damage players of Hipper, Martel (only two anomalous players are comparable), Chappy, Mogami, Edinburgh, and Atago. At T8 only Kutuzov, another ship which not coincidentally is a fire spammer with smoke, outperforms it decisively. 

At T9 the Belfast top ten are slightly better than Ibuki, somewhat below Roon, comfortably ahead of Baltimore (whose top ten  avg damage drops off quickly), beat Donskoi, and are comparable to Neptune, another smoked spammer.

There is no question that Belfast is OP. None. Not only do the numbers say it clearly, but almost everyone who has played the ship, or against it, says that as well. 

For me, I would lower the fire chance and/or remove the sonar and/or raise the detect by at least 1 km. 

 

Edited by Taichunger
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AraAragami    5,027

Oh so NOW damage is a relevant balancing metric?

 

Everywhere I look on this forum I encounter double standards.

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Taichunger    1,943
1 minute ago, AraAragami said:

Oh so NOW damage is a relevant balancing metric?

 

Everywhere I look on this forum I encounter double standards.

 

I've never said it wasn't, so i have no idea why you posted that.

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AraAragami    5,027
1 minute ago, Taichunger said:

I've never said it wasn't, so i have no idea why you posted that.

 

General bitterness. Though I brought up that the excuse used to justify nerfing Shimakaze also applies to Belfast: Games played vs other ships in its tier.

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LittleWhiteMouse    16,667

Damage isn't a relevant metric in of itself -- especially not the damage done of the top 0.1% of players, not for the purposes of determining which ship gets the axe.  Give me the average damage of the average players (say between 47 and 51% win rate) of those ships.

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Taichunger    1,943
9 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Damage isn't a relevant metric in of itself -- especially not the damage done of the top 0.1% of players, not for the purposes of determining which ship gets the axe.  Give me the average damage of the average players (say between 47 and 51% win rate) of those ships.

 

Damage IS the most relevant metric of a ship's performance. And the top ten numbers show it decisively, since those players have reached the limits of the possibilities of that ship. 

But I really didn't think that mere numbers would convince you, and I am certain you will simply dismiss any other numbers I give you. But that's ok, I was writing for others who have doubts/need arguments, I never expected data and arguments would convince you. 

Edited by Taichunger
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Let me add my two cents in here.

I am a USN Cruiser Captain. I am used to hugging islands and firing shots bow on into broadsides. I am used to setting up Anti-AA bubbles, radaring the enemy, and supporting battleships pushing the flank.

I own a Belfast, and I have driven her. I don't like it. I don't understand how to smoke in a cruiser (cruisers quite frankly have no business with smoke IMO, but I digress on that one), I know how to radar and hydro in her. But unless I am behind a massive island, I can't make her work. My playstyle is inline with the USN, and I am thoroughly accustomed to the play style.

On the other hand, I also own a Konig Albert. For some reason, I can actually play her like an oversized cruiser. She can bring more guns to bear in the game than the rest of the competition in one broadside, has good speed for a BB considering South Carolina sets the standard in the "suck" department for BB speed, and she had a good healing ratio and secondaries that usually chase off DD's sailed by lesser skilled captains.

Belfast is a British Cruiser with HE shells and does "British Cruiser Things But With HE Shells This Time". RN Cruisers are fundamentally different in their playstyle from the rest of the cruisers. They are not meant to do the rest of the "Cruiser Things" the other cruisers do. The same goes for Konig Albert in her role. You can literally sail her right up to the middle of the map and she can hold her ground in open water, while most battleships can't be the literal centerpiece of the battle.

Belfast is a tier 8 scaled down at tier 7 before the tier 8 came around and has tools to compensate. Konig Albert is a Tier 4 put down at tier 3 with fewer tier-respective scaling tweaks than the former mentioned. They are both in the same spot, one just got more done to it than the other.

So when someone says "nerf Belfast" or "remove Belfast from sale", you may have a point due to her tool belt, but she has a playstyle that some can adapt to, while other's can not, while Konig Albert has one that can be more easily adapted to.

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LittleWhiteMouse    16,667
12 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Damage IS the most relevant metric of a ship's performance.

Win rate is.  Damage is simply a means to an end.

The top ten players won't unbalance the game with their performance.  How the majority of the player base functions will.  The odds of you encountering a unicum in a given match is no better than one game in four with a 50/50 chance of it being on your team.  Now shuffle all of the given ships available and the odds of meeting a unicum Belfast are even slimmer to the point of statistical irrelevance.  You're far more likely to run into some average player in a Belfast.  How they perform with the ship is much more important to the overall health of the game.

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Taichunger    1,943
Just now, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Win rate is.  Damage is simply a means to an end.

The top ten players won't unbalance the game with their performance.  How the majority of the player base functions will.  The odds of you encountering a unicum in a given match is no better than one game in four with a 50/50 chance of it being on your team.  Now shuffle all of the given ships available and the odds of meeting a unicum Belfast are even slimmer to the point of statistical irrelevance.  You're far more likely to run into some average player in a Belfast.  How they perform with the ship is much more important to the overall health of the game.

 

Like I said.....

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24 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Damage isn't a relevant metric in of itself -- especially not the damage done of the top 0.1% of players, not for the purposes of determining which ship gets the axe.  Give me the average damage of the average players (say between 47 and 51% win rate) of those ships.

As Wargaming made damage the relevant metric for the IJN DD's nerfs, yes it relevant.

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Herr_Reitz    1,276

You know what I say I'd say to everyone. If you feel it's OP then buy her, drive around in an OP ship and club the daylights out of those poor little waifs you'll come up against like the poor poor Neptune. Tier 9, 8 and 7 and yeah, 6 and 5 possibly too. Just think of all those little waa waas waiting for you to hunt them down like the scallops they are in your OP, fire-breathing Belfast. 

 

Otherwise, why even complain? You can't afford her? Fine, fair enough, save your pennies. As I see it that's your two choices: buy her or move on. 

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CCloak    11
Just now, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Win rate is.  Damage is simply a means to an end.

The top ten players won't unbalance the game with their performance.  How the majority of the player base functions will.  The odds of you encountering a unicum in a given match is no better than one game in four with a 50/50 chance of it being on your team.  Now shuffle all of the given ships available and the odds of meeting a unicum Belfast are even slimmer to the point of statistical irrelevance.  You're far more likely to run into some average player in a Belfast.  How they perform with the ship is much more important to the overall health of the game.

 

I will agree with you if I am a fellow NA player. I wished I started in NA instead. But I have established in SEA, and I can say by now, I almost always meet Belfast divisions if I don't play in the evening peak hours. I played 6 games in Fubuki after midnight, 5 of them have Belfast divisions either on my side or on the enemy, the only game I don't have Belfast divisions was because I am top tier.

 

In this abominated server, Sims also has over 60% winrate in 2 weeks, because she has over 70% winrate in 3-mans, with Belfast and Saipan. SEA has less total battles than NA, which has less than EU, but SEA has over twice the amount of battles compared to NA in 2-weeks for Belfast and Sims 3-man.

 

Strong players make Belfast perform well solo, but her weakness is gone by simply divisioning with another smoke ship with torpedoes. Lesser skill players go this route and will do well. With exclusive access to T8 upgrade module, it is hard to justify Belfast as balance, since Fiji is also strong without the concealment upgrade. Radar+smoke is also considered broken, but this is fine for Belfast if BBs can hard counter her more easily. The upcoming smoke+IFHE may reduce her ability to mitigate her weakness if it goes live, that will remain to be seen.

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6 hours ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Here's the magical question:  Why do you think Belfast needs to be rebalanced?  Be sure to support your answer with data!

-Edit-  And let me elabourate on the kind of data I'm looking for:  Prove that Belfast is as universally overpowered as Konig Albert was.  Find the difference between the two where one had to be redressed and he other has not.

I'd love to get more in depth with the stats that I can look through of player results at different tiers.  Like, the top 5% of players who play the Belfast they get "x" result, when bottom 5% of players who play they get "y" result and the middle players get "z" result.  I don't know of any way I can see those results, so I looked at warships.today for results of all time and results between the last two weeks.  For people who have said there will be potato players who play it...I know.  I've been a potato in plenty of ships that do well.  Heck, I've even been killed within the first 5 minutes in my Flint (coincidentally because a Belfast had used radar and I was spotted in smoke.  

 

So first to your response LWM (and I'm surprised you've commented a lot on this post), what made the Konig Albert universally overpowered.  I personally don't own either of these ships but as judging if something is OP or not, you look at stats and how those stats interact with each other.  The things that make a good ship in WoWs is a balance of Maneuverability, Firepower, and Survivabilty.  This ship has it all.

 

Konig Albert

In terms of Firepower:

It doesn't have the highest caliber guns (Kawachi and South Carolina also have 305mm) or the highest fire chance (Kawachi has 29%).  What it does have is the greatest number of primary guns (10) and it has the highest AP alpha damage.  Alone, the firepower does not seem like much (like saying the Amagi is better than the North Carolina because it has 10 guns vs. 9) but considering that the 2 factors of balance are good, the fact that it doesn't come at the cost of Firepower is something to be stated.

In terms of Survivability: 

It has the highest health pool at 41,300 HP with the Kawachi being 2nd at 38,700 HP.  Less than a 4,000 HP difference again does not seem like much.  But, Wargaming balance higher health pools with weaker armor as seen in the Kawachi having 16 mm armor plates on a majority of the ship and a citadel armor belt of 305 mm and an armor belt of 152 mm.  The Konig Albert has a citadel armor of 350 mm and an armor belt of between 170 and 200 mm.  It also has more armor plating of a higher thickness.  This makes it less likely to take AP damage and more likely to get shatters on HE shells.  

In terms of Maneuverability:

Konig Albert is the fastest tier 3 battleship.  Granted that is only by 1 knot.  However, it has double the horsepower of all the other tier 3 battleships so it gets there a lot faster.  It has the worst turning circle and the worst rudder shift time, but it's not twice as bad as the other ships.  Its Rudder shift is only 1.4 seconds worse than the best.  Some ships have a bigger gap just between stock and upgraded hulls of the same ship.

 

So what made Wargaming decide the Konig Albert was universally overpowered was that it was only weak to ships grouping their fire to it.  It has 19% torpedo damage reduction (tied for first), the best Armor (both layout and thickness), the highest amount of broadside guns, the highest HP pool, and the best AP at the tier.  Things that could have made the ship balanced the good stats with the worse stats just are not bad enough to counter act the positives of the ship.  People say that a CV would counter it, but a CV counters every tier 3 ship.  (Plus, I'd like to see the data on how often a Konig Albert runs into a CV game and how they perform in that game before that could be made as a viable counter).  

To end my discussion on the Konig Albert before I move on to the Belfast, what made the Konig Albert strong was that it was good at all aspects while being the best in the ones that are crucial for a good battleship.  In the hands of  players going against people who are playing the first ship in a tech tree line, it was overpowered.  

 

Belfast

Maneuverability:

She's about the same as everyone else.  This is not what I think is what makes her OP.  But at the same time, these stats are not the worst or are not the worst by a long shot. 

Firepower:

It has 152mm guns.  Not counting the Atlanta twins, the other Tier 7 cruisers have 203 mm or 210 mm.  The Belfast is behind in gun caliber, which means it is behind in in alpha damage and fire chance.  With the introduction of IFHE, you trade an already weaker fire chance to get just as good HE penetration as a 203 mm or 210 mm.  Your HE alpha is less than the two higher caliber guns, but your reload time makes up for it.  Plus you have 12 guns, as the other ships have 10 or 8.  So alpha damage combined with Rate of Fire, the damages are comparable with the only difference being a greater fire chance.  Furthermore, with flags and Demolition Expert, the Fire chance you lost putting on IFHE is mitigated.  In order to achieve the same damage output, you need to fire more often.  If only there was a way to hide yourself....

 Survivabilty:

She has a smoke screen.  As a cruiser player, there is nothing better than smoke to fire at targets.  You are concealed without limiting yourself to where you can fire (as opposed to if you were behind an island to be concealed).  The difference is that people can fire back at you more effectively because there is not land in the way.  But firing an un-targeted shot in WoWs does not give you the added accuracy bonuses of module upgrades, so your shots become more spread out and its harder to hit targets.  Furthermore, if you don't know the range to the target it becomes harder to hit a target in smoke as you don't get to see the boundaries of a smoke screen when firing at it from medium to long range.  So this would be balanced out with a bad armor profile or a lower than average health pool (like the Flint).  But that's not the case.  She has the second highest HP pool for all tier 7 cruisers and has a citadel that is at the water line like the other Tier 7 cruisers, but she has a bit thicker armor.  But when going against a BB, she can be hit in the citadel just as easy.  But the armor is second to the fact that she can rely on herself to become concealed with a smoke screen.  Across all servers, Fiji, Flint, and Belfast are in the top 5 for win rate and damage.  

Firepower combined with Survivabilty: 

One way to counter balance the higher rate of fire guns is to give it less range.  At 15.4 km range, she sits at the tail end in front of Fiji, Atlanta, and Flint.  But the next two are at 15.6 km and 15.7 km (the Myoko sisters and the Pensacola) both of which have 1.5 km greater detection range.  And the Belfast has a module upgrade exclusive to her where she can mount the usual Tier 8 module slot (which can reduce her concealment even further).  And she still has smoke on top of that.  So she can get in closer than other tier 7 cruisers, use smoke to remain undetected, and proceed to rain shells at enemy ships.  Now, all she needs is something that will let her see out of her smoke screen..

 

RADAR, :etc_swear:.  Oh the joys of radar at Tier 7.  So now, a tool used by higher tier cruisers are on a Tier 7 cruiser (then on the Indianapolis, then the Atlanta).

How to kill a DD in 30 seconds or less feat. Belfast:

Step 1: Go to enemy cap likely to have DDs.  

Step 2: Get Spotted

Step 3: Slow Down

Step 4: Use Hydro to spot possible torpedoes

Step 5: Use your smoke screen

Step 6: Use your radar

Congratulations, you've now illuminated an Enemy DD in open water for your entire team to shot at.

(I've been working on this response for at this point and needed a release)

But this is the only ship in the game that has both Radar and a smoke screen.  Decent versions of both.  Combine that with the less floaty arcs of U.S. 5in/38 shells of the Atlanta and you are effective at killing enemy DDs and surviving the hail of enemy gunfire in return.

 

End discussion of Belfast:

No one thing makes her over powered.  Its the combination of everything about the ship (Radar + Smoke, 152 mm guns + IFHE + Demo Expert) that make her OP.  Her only bad stats are not nearly as bad to make up for her amazing survivabilty and firepower.

  

CONCLUSION

Maybe this was the point you were trying to make LWM.  Looking at just the stats, the Belfast fits the mold of being a strong premium.  At her bare bones stats (no commander, no premium consumables, no flags, and no modules), she is a decent ship at harassing BBs, can fight cruisers just fine, and has the best tools in the game (besides carrier aircraft) to fight destroyers.  She really becomes OP when you combine all the tools she has with a well skilled commander and the right modules.  She NEEDS a 13 point commander (so that she can have Demolition Expert, Superintendent, and IFHE) and premium consumables so that the reload on her smoke is almost up again as the last puff dissipates.   

 

In my opinion, I stated at the end of my post that she didn't need to be removed from purchase like the Konig Albert will be.  I don't think that would honestly change anything.  I wish I could have the sale numbers but I bet a healthy amount of money that there are at least 5 times as many owners of the Belfast than there is of the Konig Albert.  Putting it off sale wouldn't effect that number if the Konig Albert would remain for sale and the Belfast would not.  I made this post because the golden rule of a premium not being touched directly after sale has been broken.  Most of these changes happen during the CC and Supertesting phase but as stated previously with the Indianapolis and Atlanta, changes are sometimes made directly to a ship.  I think it would be better for the Belfast to be subtly tweaked to lessen its survivabilty than using a sledgehammer and changing the IFHE and smoke screen mechanics to the entire game just because they did not want to tweak a single ship.       

 

Edit: I'd like to see if there are any people collecting data for how strong the Belfast is completely stock (no commander skills, no premium consumables) then compare that to how the ship performs when fully upgraded.  I can't conduct that because I don't have a Belfast.  But if there is anyone that does have one, go and try it.  I'd like to see your results.

Edited by Thunderstruck2016

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Dodgy_Cookies    100

It is very difficult to screw up in a KA and die without being a significant threat. Other than being ambushed by a DD at point blank range and even then you might live through it with some lucky saturation. T2 chester pops up at 4km? Let me not turn my guns because my secondaries (w/19pt captains) will citadel him to death. Instead let me use my main guns to delete that Caledon over there, while taking minimal damage because most CL and DD shells shatter on my absurd amount of plating and deal no damage. KA could probably go 5 on 1 in a T2/3 battle and have a reasonable chance of winning the engagement coming out with a significant % of his HP left

 

While on the other hand Belfast's that are handled poorly get blown up or aren't a threat. Too fast when deploying smoke? Deleted. Didn't account for radar? Deleted. Sat too long in smoke. Deleted. Poor positioning? Wasted consumables and deal minimal damage. Etc

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Going to voice a thought about Belfast. 

Assuming WG was willing to do a targeted and calculated nerf to Belfast, I don't think they would actually remove the Tier 8 module slot, or change the Radar + Smoke + Hydro setup. 

I believe the nature of this setup and the very neat way this all comes together was a very deliberate decision, a choice to enable the Belfast to have initiative against DDs (you can freely disagree as to whether this was needed I'm not going to argue there). The Belfast is a DD killer par excellence, and it is the culmination of all these things that enable that, again I believe WG intended that deliberately (again you can freely disagree about the necessity of this).

The detect range enhanced by the Tier 8 slot syncs with Radar range, this gives the Belfast the ability to respond immediately and dangerously. The smoke is a survival mechanism, (yes I know I haven't covered an aspect here, coming up later) playing forward to hunt DDs is dangerous, the smoke enables survival when utilised well, with no smoke a Belfast would be far more likely to hang back and not be close in support thus not being an excellent DD hunter. The hydro is a blend of both survival and ability to hunt, it grants enhanced safety in smoke and the ability to push hostile smoke screens at a calculated risk. 

So now to address the part I haven't covered and I'm sure many of you immediately picked up on. Smoke as a survival mechanism, well clearly it's not, the Belfast uses it as an offensive mechanism, farming damage off any ship type, so she goes from a DD hunter to a nearly any type hunter because the smoke enables aggressive action beyond the initial survival mechanism. So if I was to target any aspect based on the assumption that she was deliberately and consciously designed to hunt DDs without equal and not compromise that I would target what allows her to step outside that role so well. 

Simply remove her current British smoke and give her the equivalent tier German DD smoke, which if I have the numbers correct changes it from 103 seconds to 65 seconds smoke duration. This now changes it from (assuming radar and smoke popped at the same time) 78 seconds of farming after radar exhaustion to 40 seconds, far less offensive duration. But importantly it retains that survival mechanism aspect enabling aggressive play, she would also gain the utility of more puffs so that would be another enhancement in the initial contact smoke in response scenario. 

 

Anyways just a thought on the discussion, feel free to disagree. She is a strong ship, and opinion seems very divided on the actuality of whether she is OP.

 

Edit: got radar duration wrong in my head, altered numbers to match.

Edited by Meatshield_No13

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Ju87s    233
6 hours ago, Sir_Davos_Seaworth said:

 

Why? That is almost like saying you want to nerf the Easter Bunny... You hardly ever see one. The Belfast on the other hand... 

Are you saying that on rare occasions, you have in fact seen the Easter Bunny?

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Carl    348
4 hours ago, Thunderstruck2016 said:

I'd love to get more in depth with the stats that I can look through of player results at different tiers.  Like, the top 5% of players who play the Belfast they get "x" result, when bottom 5% of players who play they get "y" result and the middle players get "z" result.  I don't know of any way I can see those results, so I looked at warships.today for results of all time and results between the last two weeks.  For people who have said there will be potato players who play it...I know.  I've been a potato in plenty of ships that do well.  Heck, I've even been killed within the first 5 minutes in my Flint (coincidentally because a Belfast had used radar and I was spotted in smoke.  

 

So first to your response LWM (and I'm surprised you've commented a lot on this post), what made the Konig Albert universally overpowered.  I personally don't own either of these ships but as judging if something is OP or not, you look at stats and how those stats interact with each other.  The things that make a good ship in WoWs is a balance of Maneuverability, Firepower, and Survivabilty.  This ship has it all.

 

Konig Albert

In terms of Firepower:

It doesn't have the highest caliber guns (Kawachi and South Carolina also have 305mm) or the highest fire chance (Kawachi has 29%).  What it does have is the greatest number of primary guns (10) and it has the highest AP alpha damage.  Alone, the firepower does not seem like much (like saying the Amagi is better than the North Carolina because it has 10 guns vs. 9) but considering that the 2 factors of balance are good, the fact that it doesn't come at the cost of Firepower is something to be stated.

In terms of Survivability: 

It has the highest health pool at 41,300 HP with the Kawachi being 2nd at 38,700 HP.  Less than a 4,000 HP difference again does not seem like much.  But, Wargaming balance higher health pools with weaker armor as seen in the Kawachi having 16 mm armor plates on a majority of the ship and a citadel armor belt of 305 mm and an armor belt of 152 mm.  The Konig Albert has a citadel armor of 350 mm and an armor belt of between 170 and 200 mm.  It also has more armor plating of a higher thickness.  This makes it less likely to take AP damage and more likely to get shatters on HE shells.  

In terms of Maneuverability:

Konig Albert is the fastest tier 3 battleship.  Granted that is only by 1 knot.  However, it has double the horsepower of all the other tier 3 battleships so it gets there a lot faster.  It has the worst turning circle and the worst rudder shift time, but it's not twice as bad as the other ships.  Its Rudder shift is only 1.4 seconds worse than the best.  Some ships have a bigger gap just between stock and upgraded hulls of the same ship.

 

So what made Wargaming decide the Konig Albert was universally overpowered was that it was only weak to ships grouping their fire to it.  It has 19% torpedo damage reduction (tied for first), the best Armor (both layout and thickness), the highest amount of broadside guns, the highest HP pool, and the best AP at the tier.  Things that could have made the ship balanced the good stats with the worse stats just are not bad enough to counter act the positives of the ship.  People say that a CV would counter it, but a CV counters every tier 3 ship.  (Plus, I'd like to see the data on how often a Konig Albert runs into a CV game and how they perform in that game before that could be made as a viable counter).  

To end my discussion on the Konig Albert before I move on to the Belfast, what made the Konig Albert strong was that it was good at all aspects while being the best in the ones that are crucial for a good battleship.  In the hands of  players going against people who are playing the first ship in a tech tree line, it was overpowered.  

 

Belfast

Maneuverability:

She's about the same as everyone else.  This is not what I think is what makes her OP.  But at the same time, these stats are not the worst or are not the worst by a long shot. 

Firepower:

It has 152mm guns.  Not counting the Atlanta twins, the other Tier 7 cruisers have 203 mm or 210 mm.  The Belfast is behind in gun caliber, which means it is behind in in alpha damage and fire chance.  With the introduction of IFHE, you trade an already weaker fire chance to get just as good HE penetration as a 203 mm or 210 mm.  Your HE alpha is less than the two higher caliber guns, but your reload time makes up for it.  Plus you have 12 guns, as the other ships have 10 or 8.  So alpha damage combined with Rate of Fire, the damages are comparable with the only difference being a greater fire chance.  Furthermore, with flags and Demolition Expert, the Fire chance you lost putting on IFHE is mitigated.  In order to achieve the same damage output, you need to fire more often.  If only there was a way to hide yourself....

 Survivabilty:

She has a smoke screen.  As a cruiser player, there is nothing better than smoke to fire at targets.  You are concealed without limiting yourself to where you can fire (as opposed to if you were behind an island to be concealed).  The difference is that people can fire back at you more effectively because there is not land in the way.  But firing an un-targeted shot in WoWs does not give you the added accuracy bonuses of module upgrades, so your shots become more spread out and its harder to hit targets.  Furthermore, if you don't know the range to the target it becomes harder to hit a target in smoke as you don't get to see the boundaries of a smoke screen when firing at it from medium to long range.  So this would be balanced out with a bad armor profile or a lower than average health pool (like the Flint).  But that's not the case.  She has the second highest HP pool for all tier 7 cruisers and has a citadel that is at the water line like the other Tier 7 cruisers, but she has a bit thicker armor.  But when going against a BB, she can be hit in the citadel just as easy.  But the armor is second to the fact that she can rely on herself to become concealed with a smoke screen.  Across all servers, Fiji, Flint, and Belfast are in the top 5 for win rate and damage.  

Firepower combined with Survivabilty: 

One way to counter balance the higher rate of fire guns is to give it less range.  At 15.4 km range, she sits at the tail end in front of Fiji, Atlanta, and Flint.  But the next two are at 15.6 km and 15.7 km (the Myoko sisters and the Pensacola) both of which have 1.5 km greater detection range.  And the Belfast has a module upgrade exclusive to her where she can mount the usual Tier 8 module slot (which can reduce her concealment even further).  And she still has smoke on top of that.  So she can get in closer than other tier 7 cruisers, use smoke to remain undetected, and proceed to rain shells at enemy ships.  Now, all she needs is something that will let her see out of her smoke screen..

 

RADAR, :etc_swear:.  Oh the joys of radar at Tier 7.  So now, a tool used by higher tier cruisers are on a Tier 7 cruiser (then on the Indianapolis, then the Atlanta).

How to kill a DD in 30 seconds or less feat. Belfast:

Step 1: Go to enemy cap likely to have DDs.  

Step 2: Get Spotted

Step 3: Slow Down

Step 4: Use Hydro to spot possible torpedoes

Step 5: Use your smoke screen

Step 6: Use your radar

Congratulations, you've now illuminated an Enemy DD in open water for your entire team to shot at.

(I've been working on this response for at this point and needed a release)

But this is the only ship in the game that has both Radar and a smoke screen.  Decent versions of both.  Combine that with the less floaty arcs of U.S. 5in/38 shells of the Atlanta and you are effective at killing enemy DDs and surviving the hail of enemy gunfire in return.

 

End discussion of Belfast:

No one thing makes her over powered.  Its the combination of everything about the ship (Radar + Smoke, 152 mm guns + IFHE + Demo Expert) that make her OP.  Her only bad stats are not nearly as bad to make up for her amazing survivabilty and firepower.

  

CONCLUSION

Maybe this was the point you were trying to make LWM.  Looking at just the stats, the Belfast fits the mold of being a strong premium.  At her bare bones stats (no commander, no premium consumables, no flags, and no modules), she is a decent ship at harassing BBs, can fight cruisers just fine, and has the best tools in the game (besides carrier aircraft) to fight destroyers.  She really becomes OP when you combine all the tools she has with a well skilled commander and the right modules.  She NEEDS a 13 point commander (so that she can have Demolition Expert, Superintendent, and IFHE) and premium consumables so that the reload on her smoke is almost up again as the last puff dissipates.   

 

In my opinion, I stated at the end of my post that she didn't need to be removed from purchase like the Konig Albert will be.  I don't think that would honestly change anything.  I wish I could have the sale numbers but I bet a healthy amount of money that there are at least 5 times as many owners of the Belfast than there is of the Konig Albert.  Putting it off sale wouldn't effect that number if the Konig Albert would remain for sale and the Belfast would not.  I made this post because the golden rule of a premium not being touched directly after sale has been broken.  Most of these changes happen during the CC and Supertesting phase but as stated previously with the Indianapolis and Atlanta, changes are sometimes made directly to a ship.  I think it would be better for the Belfast to be subtly tweaked to lessen its survivabilty than using a sledgehammer and changing the IFHE and smoke screen mechanics to the entire game just because they did not want to tweak a single ship.       

 

Edit: I'd like to see if there are any people collecting data for how strong the Belfast is completely stock (no commander skills, no premium consumables) then compare that to how the ship performs when fully upgraded.  I can't conduct that because I don't have a Belfast.  But if there is anyone that does have one, go and try it.  I'd like to see your results.

 

WoWS numbers has the ability to filter by top 50/25/10/5 percent of players. Unfortunately you can't eliminate divisions, or limit to last 2 weeks.

 

The stat i really want to know is how much a ships win rate on average differs from that players global win rate not counting that ship.

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