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Thunderstruck2016

Balance changes to the Belfast

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8 minutes ago, NotSynpax said:

Your analysis is invalid because it takes into account people who play ships poorly. If you want to determine what ships are OP, you'd consider their stats when in the hands of the better players. 

 

Any wallet warrior can buy a Belfast and it's not a very forgiving ship. Same with Atago. You will see a polarized performance between those who are very good with it and those who don't know what they're doing. 

 

We can get closer to a true OP analysis -- and remove some poor play clutter - by selecting for three player divisions and limiting to the previous two weeks. Here, have a look. 

What strikes me as problematic is not how well the belfast does but how poorly several other ships do (ignore that ARP Myoko -- I'm pretty sure that's just one guy). 

 

 

belfast.png

 

Unfortunately there are problems with this data also. First off, there's a huge disparity in the number of battles between ships. Second, some of these ships lend themselves to superior performance when divisioned with other specific ships. For example, an Atlanta in division with a Sims and a Saipan creates a monster division. You get smoke, spotting, superior AA and radar. Put two well-played Fijis in division where they can swap smokes and hydro and I'll show you a higher win rate. A Belfast makes an excellent addition to a Tier 7 division because of its radar, smoke and dps. In other words, a division enhances Belfast's strengths more than, say, a Pensacola or a Shchors. 

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19 minutes ago, NotSynpax said:

Your analysis is invalid because it takes into account people who play ships poorly. If you want to determine what ships are OP, you'd consider their stats when in the hands of the better players. 

 

Any wallet warrior can buy a Belfast and it's not a very forgiving ship. Same with Atago. You will see a polarized performance between those who are very good with it and those who don't know what they're doing. 

 

We can get closer to a true OP analysis -- and remove some poor play clutter - by selecting for three player divisions and limiting to the previous two weeks. Here, have a look. 

What strikes me as problematic is not how well the belfast does but how poorly several other ships do (ignore that ARP Myoko -- I'm pretty sure that's just one guy).

Again, getting warmer, but you take a very wrong turn...

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I actually look at this in a bit of a different light.  What makes a ship truly OP to me is not when a unicum player can exploit her, but when even a novice will have a great win rate, just because of the ship.  If you need extensive skill to make the ship work, then there are usually effective counters to the ship also (that's why it doesn't work for the unskilled).  One thing I have noticed about the truly OP ships is that they tend to have an unusually high K/D ratio.  Aside from CVs, a K/D ratio of above 2.0 is quite rare.  These are ships that are consistently surviving as well as doing a lot of damage and sinking a lot of ships.  The poster children are Imperator Nikolai I at 3.0, Arkansas Beta at 2.6, Fujin at 2.1, and of course Koenig Albert at 2.3 (taken from last 2 weeks stats for NA).  I might add that I consider the CV's with above a 2.0 K/D to be unbalanced as well, but that is a different topic (take a look at Taiho for instance, or Kaga!).

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23 minutes ago, Erebthoron said:

Nope. The Nikolai has a good number of weaknesses. She also face often carriers at her tier. There are many DD that spam torpedos all day. She live from teamwork. If you can single out a Nikolai you can sink her. 

 

Oh come on.  When I sort my BB performance by average damage, I see a couple of Tier 10s, then a 9, Three 8s, some 7s, Nikolai, and back to 9s, 8s and weaker 7s, etc.  And I don't division in Tier 4 nearly as often as I do higher Tiers. 

BTW Imperator Nikolai has the highest average kills of any BB I play at 1.85. Konig Albert is third at 1.4. 

Edited by Landing_Skipper

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35 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

You're close, but not quite there.  Good analysis though.

Getting warmer...

Tier 3 is full of new players. The KA is purchased by experienced players and the KA is already better than tech tree ships. So...

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Just now, Captain_Doll said:

Tier 3 is full of new players. The KA is purchased by experienced players and the KA is already better than tech tree ships. So...

Bzzzt.  Wrong answer.  We do have some nice consolation prizes for our guest, though. :fish_aqua:

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9 minutes ago, Captain_Doll said:

Tier 3 is full of new players. The KA is purchased by experienced players and the KA is already better than tech tree ships. So...

Nope. If I play the Ark Beta or ImpNiko I always find a good number of professional seal clubbers with Umikazes or carriers at this tier. All those tears  in the forum when they removed the strafing and manual dropping from the lower tier carriers. Also: you may face veterans that start a new techtree.

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5 minutes ago, Captain_Doll said:

LOL. This is such a fun game. I should just go buy the KA and find out why it's OP.

Good luck with that. :Smile_trollface:

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6 minutes ago, Captain_Doll said:

LOL. This is such a fun game. I should just go buy the KA and find out why it's OP.

Buy it soon.  According to my sources at Wargaming, it's disappearing with one of the major content patches. 

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9 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Buy it soon.  According to my sources at Wargaming, it's disappearing with one of the major content patches. 

Yep you get a good ship for a handful of $$. Still keep in mind: it's a funboat, not made to print Reichsmark or train captains.

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49 minutes ago, Erebthoron said:

Nope. The Nikolai has a good number of weaknesses. She also face often carriers at her tier. There are many DD that spam torpedos all day. She live from teamwork. If you can single out a Nikolai you can sink her. 

There's a difference between OP and invincible. Belfast can be countered too - by torpedoing the smoke or simply charging down a torpedo-less ship.

Nikolai may face carriers, but ones that can't manual drop.

Nikolai may get clubbed by low tier DD players stat-padding, but unfortunately that's unavoidable. At least we can keep premiums out of the mix.

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So rather than tease you all, how's this for a challenge:

  • Find a player with over 50 games in the Belfast that does poorly.
  • Now find a player with over 50 games in the Konig Albert that does poorly.

We're going to define poorly as having less than a 50% win rate.  Collect as many as you can.

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28 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

So rather than tease you all, how's this for a challenge:

  • Find a player with over 50 games in the Belfast that does poorly.
  • Now find a player with over 50 games in the Konig Albert that does poorly.

We're going to define poorly as having less than a 50% win rate.  Collect as many as you can.

 

I wonder if the win rates look like a bell curve. In the KA, more players are above the 50% mark than players in the Belfast. 

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29 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

So rather than tease you all, how's this for a challenge:

  • Find a player with over 50 games in the Belfast that does poorly.
  • Now find a player with over 50 games in the Konig Albert that does poorly.

We're going to define poorly as having less than a 50% win rate.  Collect as many as you can.

Well I have 66 Belfast games but do badly with her when it comes to damage...

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Just now, Captain_Doll said:

I wonder if the win rates look like a bell curve. In the KA, more players are above the 50% mark than players in the Belfast. 

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.  Now you're onto something...

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2 hours ago, Sir_Davos_Seaworth said:

Just bump it up to Tier 8? :Smile_hiding:

 

Tier VII Belfast is the Best Tier VIII Cruiser in the game, period.

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10 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.  Now you're onto something...

Sounds like you are infected by the Playerunknown's Battlegrounds virus like my wife.

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21 minutes ago, Greenday4537 said:

So nerf the Flint?

 

Why? That is almost like saying you want to nerf the Easter Bunny... You hardly ever see one. The Belfast on the other hand... 

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This is so far over my head that I'm awed.  Dumb question...wouldn't the proposed IFHE nerf end up buffing the Krasny Krym in a backwards sort of way?  It has to be one of the worst in reputation.

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2 hours ago, NotSynpax said:

If you want to determine what ships are OP, you'd consider their stats when in the hands of the better players. 

 

 

If that is the criteria then all Carriers have to be removed from the game.

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9 minutes ago, surratus said:

This is so far over my head that I'm awed.  Dumb question...wouldn't the proposed IFHE nerf end up buffing the Krasny Krym in a backwards sort of way?  It has to be one of the worst in reputation.

Yes it would. :)

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2 hours ago, Landing_Skipper said:

 

Unfortunately there are problems with this data also. First off, there's a huge disparity in the number of battles between ships. Second, some of these ships lend themselves to superior performance when divisioned with other specific ships. For example, an Atlanta in division with a Sims and a Saipan creates a monster division. You get smoke, spotting, superior AA and radar. Put two well-played Fijis in division where they can swap smokes and hydro and I'll show you a higher win rate. A Belfast makes an excellent addition to a Tier 7 division because of its radar, smoke and dps. In other words, a division enhances Belfast's strengths more than, say, a Pensacola or a Shchors. 

The problem with "disparity in number of battles" as an argument is that it's the same thing used to justify nerfs to a sub-50% destroyer in tier 10. "Oh, but lots of people still play it even though it sucks now, nerf it again!"

 

Belfast, having way more battles played than any other tier 7 cruiser, is obviously in need of nerfs based only on the number of battles played over the past 2 weeks. Only Atlanta and Fiji even have 4 digit numbers, and are still nowhere near the games played as Belfast.

 

By the same logic used to justify nerfs on Shimakaze, the Belfast is sorely overdue for heavy nerfs.

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The best way to balance this ship without touching a thing on her is to put her as a T8 premium and that all. Belfast have way too much strong point (not sure if it's the good term but anyway ) :

- She have T8 concealment module as a T7 ship which is already stupid. I'm sure a lot of ship such as Akatsuki, Myoukou, Pensacola ... would like to have such thing for its tier.

-She have access to both Radar and smoke. At T7 no regular ship have access to radar .

-She have HE .

 

You also have drawbacks but when you look carefully it's not really that troublesome :

-You don't have torps....well it's not a big deal, HE already do a lot of damage over time.

-You don't have heal... ok but you already have this massive concealment for a cruiser so you can pretty much dictate where and when you can engage / disengage. If you take massive hit, it either mean you're over extended or you don't have WSAD hack.

 

Now if Belfast have to stay as a T7 ship she need to be nerfed by :

-Removing smoke and let the Belfast have radar instead of smoke.

-Removing the T8 modules .

 

Reason you would buy this "Belfast post nerf " ?

-Retraining commander

-She can slot radar 

-She have access to HE.

-She have British CL concealment.

 

Edited by AlcatrazNC

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