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Personator

Graf Zeppelin Change Suggestions

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755
[ZR]
WoWS Wiki Editor, Supertester
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In light of the very recent events regarding Graf Zeppelin, in particular the CC reviews, I have noticed that all of them, criticizingly, practically say the same thing about the ship, and rightfully so about it. Fighters are trash, AP bomb loadout is trash, overall loadout is trash... etc. And I can quite agree with them about it. But why? Let's look further in to see why. And we'll do so with, what everyone loves, stats!

Spoiler

Shokaku Fighters:         bc64a5ad33.png

Lexington Fighters:       d9c7e1fe2b.png

Enterprise Fighters:      565d93b198.png

Graf Zeppelin Fighters: 929b1df251.png

Here, we can see the base stats for each of the Tier VIII CV fighters. Ignoring Shokaku's and Lexington's stock fighters, Graf Zeppelin's fighters have the second lowest HP out of all the Tier VIII CV's fighters. Not only are they the second lowest, but they are the lowest of all the Tier VIII fighters, as Enterprise's fighters are Tier VII. How is this even justified? Why does a Tier VIII CV's Tier VIII fighters have the same HP as Tier VII fighters? You might as well just label them Tier VII at this point. (For reference, look at the pictures below)

2c053b4985.png 9059db7f26.png

 

Going into deeper detail, we'll look at the dogfight mechanics & chances. (For reference, see here and the wiki page.) We will also be assuming fully upgraded ships and fighters for each ship, so I will display the stats of each fighter after skills & upgrades have been applied.

Fully Upgraded Tier VIII CV Fighters
Carrier Cruise Speed Average DPS Hit Points
Shokaku 171 77 2091.6 (2092 in-game)
Lexington 169 69.3 (69 in-game) 2142
Enterprise 166 61.6 (62 in-game) 1965.6 (1966 in-game)
Graf Zeppelin 175 67.1 (67 in-game) 1990.8 (1991 in-game)

 

Now, let's calculate the chances per each engagement. Since this is all in regards to Graf Zeppelin, we'll only focus on her vs the other Tier VIII fighters. If you've read through the links / already understand how dogfighting mechanics work, you'll be able to follow what I'm going to throw at you here.

 

GZ vs Shokaku: 335.5 (GZ) / 2091.6 (SKK) = 16.04%

Shokaku vs GZ: 385 (SKK) / 1990.8 (GZ) = 19.34%

Outcome: GZ inevitably loses 

 

GZ vs Lexington: 335.5 (GZ) / 2142 (LX) = 15.66% 

Lexington vs GZ: 346.5 (LX) / 1990.8 (GZ) = 17.41%

Outcome: GZ inevitably loses 

 

GZ vs Enterprise: 335.5 (GZ) / 1965.6 (EE) = 17.07%

Enterprise vs GZ: 308 (EE) / 1990.8 (GZ) = 15.47%

Outcome: GZ wins- HOLD UP RIGHT THERE.

 

Enterprise planes are Tier VII, while GZ's planes are Tier VIII. This means that Dogfighting Expert skill can and will apply.

 

GZ vs Enterprise: 335.5 (GZ) / 1965.6 (EE) = 17.07%

Enterprise vs GZ: 338.8 (EE) / 1990.8 (GZ) = 17.02%

Outcome: GZ barely wins; practically evenly matched.

 

But wait! There's more!

 

Enterprise can have 6-man fighter squads vs Graf Zeppelin's 5-man squads, which means after losing 1 for 1, Enterprise is the inevitable winner with 1 plane left. Again, please note that is this all theoretically / statistically speaking.

 

So in all practicality and theoreticallyGraf Zeppelin will lose every dogfighting engagement with any other Tier VIII CV. The only good point about them is being the fastest fighters of Tier VIII.

 

 

 

Now, onto the dive bombers. v

Fully Upgraded Tier 8 CV Dive Bombers
Carrier Cruise Speed Max Damage Potential Hit Points
Shokaku 161 4600 1690.5 (1691 in-game)
Lexington 140 10800 1764
Enterprise 137 8000 (HE) 7500 (AP) 1726.725 (1727 in-game)
Graf Zeppelin 135 8400 (HE) 11100 (AP) 1659

 

So far, Graf Zeppelin has the slowest dive bombers for Tier VIII CVs, along with the lowest hit points for their tier, even lower than Enterprise's and Shokaku's. Again, practically the worst planes for its tier. What does it have to show for? Just the darn AP bombs having the highest potential damage. But that doesn't stop there!

 

The bombers, when equipped with AP bombs, have a delayed drop time of about 9 seconds. Furthermore, they are not allowed to drop & leave until the bomb has hit. This makes them the worst bombers in the history of CVs in the game as they are forced to spend time in enemy AA unnecessarily, which is, obviously, a ridiculous mechanic & terrible implementation

 

So, the dive bombers (AP) in a nutshell:

Slow, have great potential, terrible survivability, and forced to spend time dying.

 

All in all, a terrible carrier.

 

Now, my proposed buffs to Graf Zeppelin.

 

1. Change the fighter tier designation to VII. This way, it has a chance of winning against something (that is Enterprise fighters) rather than nothing. There has to be some sort of good point to its fighters. 

2. Remove the AP bomb drop delay. Currently, every other ship doesn't have to force its DBs (especially Enterpriseto spend an extra 5-6 seconds inside enemy AA, increasing their chances of being completely shot down. Only Graf Zeppelin is forced to deal with this mechanic

 

Thanks for reading! :)

Edited by Personator
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I thought I remember Graf getting a secondary range nerf too? If that went through, put it back to the German BB range. 

 

For the lulz.

 

Good looking changes though!

Edited by xX_Critical_ClopOut69_Xx

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The Graf Zep dbs have a very fast turnaround however, and a very high probablity of scoring multiple hits with HE based on a tight dispersion drop. While they have the lowest hitpoints, they are fast returning to rearm. Honestly, I don't think I have lost many dbs to enemy fighters, whatever their wiki stats may say about speed. As for the drop delay for AP, if they do that, they would become overpowered cruiser/dd killers, and would be nerfed somewhere else.

All it needs, speaking as a GZ player, is a fighter buff, a full 5.0.0 diverbomber HE option, (rain the fires of hell...), and a 2.1.2 Db/Tb/F option. (just for those who cannot live without torpedoes, which are coming whether we like it or not)

3 minutes ago, xX_Critical_ClopOut69_Xx said:

I thought I remember Graf getting a secondary range nerf too? If that went through, put it back to the German BB range. 

 

For the lulz.

 

Good looking changes though!

Secondaries were nerfed on release. Don't believe anything the WG Wiki tells you/ My current secondaries range with skills and so on is 6.6 km/ AA 4.5 km, Concealment is at 14km. But all those stats are with my current captain and a concealment mod.

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WoWS Wiki Editor, Supertester
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1 minute ago, nuttybiscuit said:

As for the drop delay for AP, if they do that, they would become overpowered cruiser/dd killers, and would be nerfed somewhere else.

They wouldn't be "overpowered cruiser / dd killers", because when i tried to drop a Mahan while testing the drop, I got only 6-10 hits per strike with all 15 bombers, which is only about 7-11k HP. Now imagine trying to do that on a maneuvering Mahan.

 

4 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

The Graf Zep dbs have a very fast turnaround however, and a very high probablity of scoring multiple hits with HE based on a tight dispersion drop. While they have the lowest hitpoints, they are fast returning to rearm. Honestly, I don't think I have lost many dbs to enemy fighters, whatever their wiki stats may say about speed.

Practically every other DB gets insane speed boosts after dropping their bombs. It's why CV players in competitive use them as scouts. But these are horrible for attempting to attack anything with a decent amount of AA, even Amagi when AA spec'd.

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GZ definitely needs some flavor....

Edited by Xenostryker

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