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Possible fix for the Graf Zeppelin

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Hey everyone, this is my first time writing in the forum. So I'm sorry if this is not the place to make a feedback on the Graf Zeppelin.

 

Now I'm not really an expert on this, so instead I'm going to link to a video that I think makes a good fix for the Graf Zeppelin.

 

 

Hope you all have a nice day.

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Here is the fix in a nut shell and most likely going happen to shut people up, copy paist Shokaku minor tweaks to give the impression of difference without any real difference. Elite CCs and their lemmings sings praises, people like me sigh and get a refund as it not what I was wanting when I bought GZ as I could of grinded to Shokaku for free.

 

WG listen to the people that bought GZ and not those that complained and therefore missed out. I would much rather have a close in short range support style carrier and not a Shokaku clone this guy is asking for.

 

Everyone else wait for the Zuikaku if you want a premium Shokaku clone.

Edited by GreyFox78659
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30 minutes ago, GreyFox78659 said:

Here is the fix in a nut shell and most likely going happen to shut people up, copy paist Shokaku minor tweaks to give the impression of difference without any real difference. Elite CCs and their lemmings sings praises, people like me sigh and get a refund as it not what I was wanting when I bought GZ as I could of grinded to Shokaku for free.

 

WG listen to the people that bought GZ and not those that complained and therefore missed out. I would much rather have a close in short range support style carrier and not a Shokaku clone this guy is asking for.

 

Everyone else wait for the Zuikaku if you want a premium Shokaku clone.

I don't know why you are bothering replying to this thread, it is just more spam with the same identical topic title that has been posted multiple times since yesterday promoting the same youtuber clearly farming for subscribers and clicks.

As for what WG as announced, a) nobody except those who have already bought it will have access to Graf Zep for many many months to come. b) existing owners, rather than "CCs and their lemmings" (which is an unfair generalization), will have according to WG, privileged access to discuss and exchange ideas with devs via a special facebook group (watch your emails) c) without certain CCs such as LittleWhiteMouse, you would be up a creek in your premiums without a paddle (some other CCs, without naming names you can safely ignore)

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I have no beef with LWM (although last I checked Konnig Albert was till for sale despite being told it was being removed for being op which is why I got it) but the other unnamed CC and his followers did more to ruin the GZ experience than WG did. 

Edited by GreyFox78659

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1 minute ago, GreyFox78659 said:

I have no beef with LWM (although last I checked Koenig Albert was till for sale despite being told it was being removed) but the other unnamed CC did more to ruin the GZ experience than WG did. 

A weekend of entertainment always leads to an almighty hangover, although I do feel sorry for those directly and indirectly abused by the slanging match, and pitchfork armed torchbearers.

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7 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

A weekend of entertainment always leads to an almighty hangover, although I do feel sorry for those directly and indirectly abused by the slanging match, and pitchfork armed torchbearers.

Yeah WG good job. Torchbearers if I want a refund I want one from you, you caused this mess. Sounds like WG made a calculated move to release it and see what the community at large thought as it was in development hell for so long. I think they are coming to the same conclusion I have. That is maybe some CC turnover needs to happen to bring fresh prospective to ship creating. Things are getting stale and ships that should of been out long ago are getting held up over infighting.

Edited by GreyFox78659

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1 hour ago, GreyFox78659 said:

Yeah WG good job. Torchbearers if I want a refund I want one from you, you caused this mess. Sounds like WG made a calculated move to release it and see what the community at large thought as it was in development hell for so long. I think they are coming to the same conclusion I have. That is maybe some CC turnover needs to happen to bring fresh prospective to ship creating. Things are getting stale and ships that should of been out long ago are getting held up over infighting.

 

CC's have very little influence on actual ship development. Also the KA will be removed in an upcoming patch as stated on Pigeon's livestream the other day.

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Wait, the Graf Zeppelin is out!?!  Sweet!  Is it any good?

 

Spoiler

:Smile_playing:

(btw, I want the troll emoticon back.)

 

 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, RipNuN2 said:

 

CC's have very little influence on actual ship development. Also the KA will be removed in an upcoming patch as stated on Pigeon's livestream the other day.

Tell that to the torchbearers and CCs then. As this episode sounds like they have a lot of enfluence on ship development in fact it sounds like they were holding it up with in fighting and WG just said :etc_swear:it deadline up here it is CCs like it or not. (by the way the BB mafia appears to have won this battle behind the scenes GZ didn't get the BB delete load out but in doing so, lost the war she gets DRTs later) Then when they didn't get their way i.e. holding up further while they bicker on how the balance it to make it perfectly competitive (which most people don't care about that is what IJN and US Carriers are for) they stirred their followers (the lemmings) up into a frenzy and now they screwed it up for those that might of bought on the second release in a month or two after some fixes were made.

Edited by GreyFox78659

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1 hour ago, GreyFox78659 said:

Here is the fix in a nut shell and most likely going happen to shut people up, copy paist Shokaku minor tweaks to give the impression of difference without any real difference. Elite CCs and their lemmings sings praises, people like me sigh and get a refund as it not what I was wanting when I bought GZ as I could of grinded to Shokaku for free.

 

WG listen to the people that bought GZ and not those that complained and therefore missed out. I would much rather have a close in short range support style carrier and not a Shokaku clone this guy is asking for.

 

Everyone else wait for the Zuikaku if you want a premium Shokaku clone.

 

1 hour ago, nuttybiscuit said:

I don't know why you are bothering replying to this thread, it is just more spam with the same identical topic title that has been posted multiple times since yesterday promoting the same youtuber clearly farming for subscribers and clicks.

As for what WG as announced, a) nobody except those who have already bought it will have access to Graf Zep for many many months to come. b) existing owners, rather than "CCs and their lemmings" (which is an unfair generalization), will have according to WG, privileged access to discuss and exchange ideas with devs via a special facebook group (watch your emails) c) without certain CCs such as LittleWhiteMouse, you would be up a creek in your premiums without a paddle (some other CCs, without naming names you can safely ignore)

 

37 minutes ago, Lionel92 said:

Welcome to the Graf Zeppelin forums... 

 

I'm sorry, I only now found out that people have been spamming out this video and it wasn't my intention to sound like a broken record.

So let me start over.

 

The changes that I think would be good for the Graf Zeppelin.

 

1) Give her two flight mods, the first one having 2/0/3 and the second one having 2/3/0

2) Buff her fighters damage and speed so that they do more damage than the japanese fighter but less than the american fighters (same way with the speed so they are faster than american fighters, but slower than the japanese fighter) and maybe lower their ammo so they are good at damage but can't stay in a fight for too long.

3) Buff her diver/torpedo bombers health a bit.

4) Make it so that the Ap bombers delay is shorten from 6 seconds to 3-4 seconds, that way there is still a changes for BB to either dodge or minimize the damage (since I have heard that the AP bombs can nuke a BB out of existence) and it will still make it hard for them to hit DD and cruisers.

5) While you are working on the "deep dive torpedos" I think that the way to fix the torpedo problem is to make their damage the lowest, that way the Graf would need to rely on flooding damage. Also change them so that instead of 3 groups with 5 planes, make them 3 groups with 3 planes and maybe shorten their range (that way the "Torpedo Acceleration" perk becomes useless and they won't be able to catch DD unless they are stuck on an island or a really good player can catch them)

 

And that is pretty much it, the reason why I didn't just write this from the start was because, as you probably can see on my stats I'm not a really good player so I don't beliver what I would say would be that great and I was also afraid that some of these ideas would either make her an "OP Premium" (and god forbid that we need that) or it would just make her worse.

Also on a side note the HE Bombers don't need any changes, they are perfect as they are and and buffing their already great accuracy would just make them too OP.

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At this point she will probably made into an OP premium to tick off the folks that caused this mess knowing they are locked out of it. I am fine with that option as well.

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19 minutes ago, GreyFox78659 said:

Tell that to the torchbearers and CCs then. As this episode sounds like they have a lot of enfluence on ship development in fact it sounds like they were holding it up with in fighting and WG just said :etc_swear:it deadline up here it is CCs like it or not. (by the way the BB mafia appears to have won this battle behind the scenes GZ didn't get the BB delete load out but in doing so, lost the war she gets DRTs later) Then when they didn't get their way i.e. holding up further while they bicker on how the balance it to make it perfectly competitive (which most people don't care about that is what IJN and US Carriers are for) they stirred their followers (the lemmings) up into a frenzy and now they screwed it up for those that might of bought on the second release in a month or two after some fixes were made.

 

You seem to be misinformed. The Supertesters provide way more feedback and testing than the CCs do but it doesnt mean WG necessarily takes their advice as they look at many things in testing. GZ as WG has already stated was able to too easily delete DDs in it's initial form. Then while trying to find the best setups for DB they ran out of time to balance all this in the normal channels and rushed it out for gamescom without proper testing. This didnt allow the CC's to test the new changes for reviews before she went live. This is due to WG rushing the balancing process and doesnt have anything to do with the CC's feedback. CC's are more for ship promotion and advertising. 

Edited by RipNuN2
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It will be interesting to see what happens in the end for sure.  My only beef with the whole issue is all the YouTube worshipers.  Yes the CCs do a lot of good for the community but in a nutshell it all depends on which ones you listen to.  Some are biased and some are not.  However a lot of them are very arrogant in what they do.  They have become celebrities in their own mind and think their word is scripture.  When this happens you're bound to have a large group that either agrees or disagrees with them and then come to the forums complaining on how broken or OP a ship is.  This is why I will never watch a CC's video or even take their opinion.  Its become very sad that more stock is put in them than in the Supertesters.

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2 hours ago, GreyFox78659 said:

I have no beef with LWM (although last I checked Konnig Albert was till for sale despite being told it was being removed for being op which is why I got it) but the other unnamed CC and his followers did more to ruin the GZ experience than WG did. 

 What does LWN mouse have to do with the K. Albert? It was pigeon of war who said it was being removed and he said when... which is not yet.

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1) Give her two flight mods, the first one having 2/0/3 and the second one having 2/3/0.  (2/3/0 WAS DEEMED TOO OP AGAINST DESTROYERS, MAKE IT A 2/2/1 OR 2/1/2 LOADOUT)

2) Buff her fighters damage and speed so that they do more damage than the japanese fighter but less than the american fighters (same way with the speed so they are faster than american fighters, but slower than the japanese fighter) and maybe lower their ammo so they are good at damage but can't stay in a fight for too long. (AMMO ALREADY WAY TOO LOW, BUFF HP'S AND AMMO, KEEP SPEED THE SAME.)

3) Buff her diver/torpedo bombers health a bit. (HEALTH IS GOOD ENOUGH)

4) Make it so that the Ap bombers delay is shorten from 6 seconds to 3-4 seconds, that way there is still a changes for BB to either dodge or minimize the damage (since I have heard that the AP bombs can nuke a BB out of existence) and it will still make it hard for them to hit DD and cruisers. (REMOVE ANY DELAY, NOONE ELSE HAS TO PUT UP WITH THAT CRAP. LOWER DAMAGE IF TOO OP)

5) While you are working on the "deep dive torpedos" I think that the way to fix the torpedo problem is to make their damage the lowest, that way the Graf would need to rely on flooding damage. Also change them so that instead of 3 groups with 5 planes, make them 3 groups with 3 planes and maybe shorten their range (that way the "Torpedo Acceleration" perk becomes useless and they won't be able to catch DD unless they are stuck on an island or a really good player can catch them) THEY HAD 3 GROUPS OF 4, KEEP IT AT 4 PER SQUADRON GIVE THEM 1 OR 2 SQUADRONS

 

What I would like to see is secondaries increased even more to Bismark range, increase fighter ammo pool a bit so that for modules GZ takes secondary Battery Mod 2 and not Air group Mod 2, (This makes GZ unique) 1 torp bomber, slightly buffed fighters, remove ap drop delay. Ideal loadout 2/1/2 or 2/2/1

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At this point just add an extra squad of fighters I would think it would largely fix the fighter problem and give GZ's armor a slight boost up to heavy cruiser levels and say done. She would have six squads in keeping with the tier and pretty much keep the current feel. As I said I another post hydro acoustic would a good consumable to add with radar being an option. GZ should be a support battle carrier not another Shokaku.

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5 hours ago, GreyFox78659 said:

At this point she will probably made into an OP premium to tick off the folks that caused this mess knowing they are locked out of it. I am fine with that option as well.

This. 

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Honestly I think the CC's and Supertesters who have already indicated their bias against GZ should stay out of the extended testing period. Let those of us who bought her and choose to stick with her do all the testing. Let US give the input, not so called "forum/you tube" famous CC/tester crowd, who have ALREADY shown all they want is another Shokaku clone.

 

 

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I think that Graf Zeppelin should be a test bed for mechanic changes for round two CV fix (if they decide to do another round eventually). These mechanics could be the allowance of 8 squadrons to your liking and are only limited to hangar capacity (72 planes) Squadrons from 3 up to 6 or 9 with Air Superiority. For example 8 squadrons at 6 planes = 48 planes out at one time leaving 24 reserve, alternatively you could go 8 squadrons by 3 planes = 24 planes, leaving 48 in reserve. Meaning GZ would have more flexibility than IJN and USN counterparts, but at the cost of losing squadrons quickly or depleting entire reserve entirely. She could also have multiple squadrons set ups: i.e. 0-0-8 or 8-0-0 or 4-0-4 or 0-8-0. meaning that you can fit her to your play-style, whether its to piss off CVs, BBs or both at the same time. Additionally, GZ could mix the DB load out from full HE to full AP, or MIXED (both AP and HE, not as strong as full AP or HE, but chance to do both fires and citadels). 

 

BUT REMEMBER SHE IS ONLY LIMITED TO HANGAR CAPACITY. 

 

If problems persist please consult the nearest Atlanta or AA cruiser for assistance (That is sorta the point of cruisers BBs, or sticking close to other BBs) on the more serious note to balance it from literally having 0-0-8 or 8-0-0, just add a Response penalty meaning that it takes a couple of more seconds for your squadrons to coordinate or respond to commands. this means that any squadron at 9 planes takes a longer to respond to your commands and are slower (because of re-coordinating with other fighters of that squadron. anything at 4 or less are quicker to respond to commands and are faster. Meaning that you trade strike potential for better responsiveness and speed or less speed and responsiveness in exchange for more strike capacity. The faster and more responsive squadrons can react to dynamic gameplay more rapidly or more strike power to scare off/ prevent the enemy from steamrolling one side of the map. Squadron size also effects recovery, replenish/resupply, and launching times, making it so you have to compromise between: Speed, Power, Responsiveness, and Carrier (Recovery, Rearming, and Launching) Time.

 

By using Graf Zeppelin as a test bed for said mechanic changes could also apply to the rest of the Carriers to make USN CVs more usable and IJN CVs can retaliate with more fighter squadrons if they wanted to or use AP Bombs. Making Carrier Gameplay better than the standard "Here is your setup, now chose one that will probably make the team lose or win, and you also have no idea what the enemy carrier setup is, so GL" 

 

As for additional balances to her (GZ) you could make her not be able to have 10 km secondary range like 7-8 km is good enough or even better than most CV secondaries. the Planes themselves could stay the same, like the original iteration, meh fighters and what not.

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@Wolvzer I'm sorry but you've lost me. Are you saying that Graf should be able to have a varied amount of aircraft per squad and a varied amount of squads depending upon the captain?

 

Assuming that is what you are saying there's a lot wrong with that idea. However I believe everyone thinks that the Graf is going to be a test bed for some of the major changes that could happen to aircraft carriers. Honestly speaking if the developers took half of the ideas that this sub forum has generated since the initial release of aircraft carriers and tested them with Graf Zeppelin there wouldn't be another Graf sold in maybe two years. Thus I am guessing they will work on ones that make sense for the long term goals of the game designers and that will anger the least amount of people.

 

On to why letting carriers have command over their aircraft load out is just asking for trouble. 

One of the bigger problems with giving aircraft carriers varied numbers of squads and varied numbers of planes per squad I can think of is how do you program this? Now I don't expect everyone to think about the coding implications of their ideas but having such variance would make the ship overly complex. Which means any smart developer will look at this idea and skip it due to the complexity. Furthermore even some of the more straight forward ideas such as fighters that carry bombs could be difficult to fit into the current code architecture which is why we haven't seen or heard anything about them ever. Now I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but as experience as a computer science major says that it's to complex and too likely to cause a cascade of other problems with the code of the game to be worth trying.

 

Secondly there is the problem of how does WG balance player picked load outs with out making one set up the most optimal. As with enough intelligent and motivated players the most powerful set up of squads and numbers will be found. Depending upon play style there could be some variation but from my experience as a carrier captain other than a few odd ducks who would want more of one thing or another the carrier players would adapt to what they see as the most optimal load out for the majority of the time. If anything once this style of flight control got implemented to all carriers USS Enterprise, and Kaga will suddenly become even more powerful than they all ready are thanks to having larger hangers than the ones normally found at their tier. Saipan would likely suddenly become unplayable thanks to the small hangar size, even if it kept the tier 9 aircraft. Currently there is a bit of a balance when it comes to aircraft squads. The better aircraft have smaller squads so that you have roughly similar group stats. I'm overly simplifying a few things but the concept is sound. 


Thirdly what would you do about the torpedo bomber?  Depending upon the numbers exactly there could be a set up found that can 1 shot any ship in the game, and while having a long reload might hinder the ability of the carrier to do well with 6 squads of strike aircraft I'm sure there is some number of airplanes per squad that would allow for a wall of torpedoes that would take out any ship in the game with a few torpedo squads left over. This would be independent of the drop pattern which with say 8 torpedo bombers could be instant death for any ship. For example let's Graf gets the 10k damage torpedoes back like Graf had originally. With 6 squads of 8 torpedo bombers, as implied by the statement "Squadrons from 3 up to 6 or 9 with Air Superiority" (Wolvzer 22:33 8/30/2017) you would have a potential damage of 480k in the air at one time. I don't care how much AA or Fighters you come across if even half of that gets into the hostile team in one go the game would be decided then and there. Assuming that you could get two of these strikes off per game and that you had a 50% hit rate for an average of 75% damage you would have a game contribution of 360k damage. Now depending on spread a 50% hit rate may be rather low or rather high. Either way I think doing more damage than some teams have health points with 37.5% of what you put in the air over the game is a bit much. If we go off of 6 by 6 as stated in said statement your damage in the air is a far more reasonable 360k. Which if we assume the same 50% hit rate for 75% damage a strike each wave will net you 135k. Say two a game again and that's 270k damage a game. Hopefully I don't need to explain why this amount of damage would break the game in all kinds of wonderful and salty ways, but I will if asked. 

 

Sure there could be that one guy with a fighter heavy load out but depending upon team comp, fighter speed and player competence the fighter heavy load out might just hinder the team by giving up a huge amount of damage while not protecting well enough. To quote the British "A bomber will always get through."  So if bombers will get though, and to fully shut them down you need say 4 squads of fighters, assuming two get locked by the 2/6/0 carrier you could only have 4 squads of torpedo bombers. Now before someone points out that 48 aircraft in torpedo bombers only leaves 24 reserve aircraft and some of those are going to fighters, you are right. As is the 36 aircraft torpedo bomber formation leaving 36 aircraft in reserve before fighters. Yes that is less than any other aircraft carrier except maybe Bogue, but for those damage numbers I'd say it's worth it. Not to mention the area spread you could get with 6 squads of torpedo bombers.

 

And as a final note I found your formatting more distracting than anything else. 

 

TLDR; The two reasons WG will never let carriers have control over the hangar and squad size comes down to the absurd amount of damage carriers could field at any one time. And that likely it would be a nightmare to implement into the game code. 

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