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Other navy's candidates for legendary captains

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3 hours ago, Foxfire1337 said:

-1 for Callaghan, as however righteous, he would have been court-martialed if he had survived, and well...see below

+1 for Norman Scott, as perhaps the second greatest tragedy of the Pacific Theater after Pearl Harbor was that we lost Admiral Scott to friendly fire of all things, and likely to the San Francisco, the ship Callaghan commanded

+78314097197 for good old Willis "Ching" Lee, who was one of the few to question Hallsey's Bull run, and could swat a fly with a 16 inch shell in total darkness.  Without a doubt, the best Battleship commander ever to serve in the USN post-Spanish American War.  If Hallsey had detached Lee's task force (as was the original plan), Lee's fast battleships would have crushed Kurita handily.  I have a personal stake here, as my grandfather served aboard LSM 237 at Leyte.  If Kurita's center force breaks through, I never exist.

+78314097197 for Commander Ernast E. Evans, for having more balls than any man to ever command a ship.  "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected."

+bonus points for Copeland, who concurred and completed the order:  "We will do what damage we can...SMALL BOYS ATTACK!"

+1 for Spruance, and your words leave just one thing unsaid:

-1 for not including Jack Fletcher, who possessed the most practicality and conservation of force, if not the strongest will in the long run

Jack Fletcher vs Tamon Tamaguchi at Midway would have been one hell of a clash...

 

My mistake, Callaghan was the commander of the San Francisco. Some bitter lessons were definitely learned from Guadalcanal, even if the first night was a strategic victory. Jack Fletcher definitely deserves credit; I would rate Chester Nimitz up there as well, for his role in the US submarine force devastating Japanese merchant shipping, and his underway replenishment developments.

Edited by icyplanetnhc

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42 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

He wasn't a Nazi, that much is clear.

1

 

He was a noted anti-Semite. Some might argue that is enough to earn him a "Nazi" title. But no, he was not a part of the actual Nazi government. Then again, being anti-semitic alone may not be enough to warrant the title.. heck, even Churchill was an anti-Semite. The difference between Darlan and Churchill is that Churchill did not enforce/encourage anti-semitic policies on his country like Darlan did.

 

@mofton

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1 hour ago, dseehafer said:

 

He was a noted anti-Semite. Some might argue that is enough to earn him a "Nazi" title. But no, he was not a part of the actual Nazi government. Then again, being anti-semitic alone may not be enough to warrant the title.. heck, even Churchill was an anti-Semite. The difference between Darlan and Churchill is that Churchill did not enforce/encourage anti-semitic policies on his country like Darlan did.

 

@mofton

And Roosevelt turned back Jewish Transports (St.Louis fiasco) where 25% of the refugees present ended up dying in the camps. The sad reality was much of the world's leaders were complacent in that crime to one degree or another. That doesn't make it okay, but it means one should take great care when pointing fingers and using what they point at as a singular justification for damnation. Darlan's a tough character in history, made more so that he was assassinated by French Partisans. This is not a conspiracy thing, just a reality of history; it is very difficult to admit that perhaps someone was more complicated than a simple, 1 word description, once they've been assassinated. This is just kind of a thing in History. I think, from the books I've read on him, Darlan was a very complicated man, trying balance what most certainty was the most difficult, complicated political, Geo-political, military, and economic situation is world history, truly stuck between a rock and a hardplace. He had no love for the German's, any illusion to the contrary is asinine, and initially he was very much in the Allies court, but after Mers, yeah, I mean I'd feel pretty f'n burned by the Allies after that, especially after I had much such a hard-stance commitment to not allowing my ships to fall into German hands. It is worth noting that even to this day that situation is controversial, made even more so that the remainder of the Fleet did in fact get scuttled when push came to shove. I think that if Darlan had not been assassinated, he would never have backed down being one of the primary driving forces of the Allies as he was at time of death very much posed to do so.

Edited by _RC1138

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14 hours ago, icyplanetnhc said:

For the US Navy, there have been several legendary admirals whose history are commonly associated with certain ship classes. Here are my quick suggestions, again just from the perspective of the US Navy.

 

Aircraft carrier: Marc Mitscher. The commander of the Fast Carrier Task Force, decimated the Kido Butai in the Philippine Sea. The USS Enterprise was one of his flagships, I believe.

Battleship: Willis Lee. One of the best battleship skippers of the US Navy, allegedly knew radar better than the operators, and expertly maneuvered the USS Washington to demolish the Kirishima at night.

Cruiser: Daniel Callaghan or Norman Scott. Commander of the USS San Francisco and Atlanta respectively during the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal.

Destroyer: Arleigh Burke. "31-knot Burke" was quite the destroyer squadron commander, and lead DesRon 23. Ernest Evans (captain of the USS Johnson) also qualifies, as his sheer audacity in attacking the Center Force during the Battle off Samar helped turn back the Japanese force and prevented the amphibious landings from being devastated.

 

Other notable admirals include Raymond Spruance, who propelled the US to victory during the Battle of Midway and the Battle of the Philippine Sea, and Robert Copeland (captain of the USS Samuel B. Roberts), who like Evans attacked against overwhelming odds during the Battle off Samar. I'm personally not a big fan of William Halsey, but you can make a case for him as well.

 

Of all these captains though, I would nominate Mitscher.

Too bad we did not get 'Ching' Lee,Norman Scott or Ernest Evans instead of Seagull.

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10 hours ago, Furysghost said:

 

Rode a Live Torpedo Many years after the war, in the summer of 1960, Vice-Admiral DeWolf related the following HMCS St. Laurent story after being prompted by Admiral Rayner. "The mechanism of a live, armed torpedo was being painted by a sailor, who first lifted the safety catch to paint underneath it, and then lifted the firing handle to paint under that. The torpedo fired, naturally, and ran wild on deck," he said. "It slammed into the deck house, bounced off and kept changing around. Everybody, including me, was scared. The decks cleared pretty rapidly. Since we thought we were all going up any second, Petty Officer Ridge and myself decided to try and tame the torpedo. We got astride it. It was as slippery as a greased pig and we thought its propeller might cut our feet off. We rode and guided it over the rail and stuck one leg over the rail to hold it steady. The propeller was making a tremendous racket on the iron deck. We finally managed to release the air [edited] (the torpedo was driven by compressed air). We still had a live torpedo. When we got to port (in the United Kingdom) we hoisted it on the wall and left it there. I reported to headquarters, but I don't know what became of the torpedo."

 

Increased torpedo reload perk ? :P  +1

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Italy: Admiral Da Zara. Mid June convoy battle of Pantelleria.

France: Captain Raymond Gervais de Lafond. Levant campaign, etc. 

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12 hours ago, Montana_Prussian said:

Sir Philip Vian tops those.

 

Ooh I have this one. :cap_popcorn:

 

When heavier enemy units appear get speed boost to go "scout the other side for the actual fleet"

when someone else starts trying to lead the team be able to place false enemy icon contacts on the minimap to disrupt their efforts. 

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What i think they should do is put specific noted vessel captains on their premiums and keep the big dogs for their unique commanders.  So say they come out with another premium Japanese destroyer.....put Tanaka on it.   Von Hipper would make for a great premium German cruiser captain.  Walker for a UK premium British destroyer, etc.  This would add to the spotlight on premiums and possibly increase sales...and the buyers get a pretty cool captain.  They could find a way to make these captains available to everyone through silver or doubloons or whatever they felt was appropriate.  

 

To add some additional flavor to the new GZ release, a specific german captain for the GZ.  But who?  

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10 minutes ago, BaronVonTom said:

What i think they should do is put specific noted vessel captains on their premiums and keep the big dogs for their unique commanders.  So say they come out with another premium Japanese destroyer.....put Tanaka on it.   Von Hipper would make for a great premium German cruiser captain.  Walker for a UK premium British destroyer, etc.  This would add to the spotlight on premiums and possibly increase sales...and the buyers get a pretty cool captain.  They could find a way to make these captains available to everyone through silver or doubloons or whatever they felt was appropriate.  

 

To add some additional flavor to the new GZ release, a specific german captain for the GZ.  But who?  

 

I just hope we don't have min/max spreadsheets on captains that people should be running for rank/clan wars/etc. 

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1 hour ago, _RC1138 said:

And Roosevelt turned back Jewish Transports (St.Louis fiasco) where 25% of the refugees present ended up dying in the camps. The sad reality was much of the world's leaders were complacent in that crime to one degree or another. That doesn't make it okay, but it means one should take great care when pointing fingers and using what they point at as a singular justification for damnation. Darlan's a tough character in history, made more so that he was assassinated by French Partisans.

I have been summoned to disparage Darlan!

'An Army at Dawn' by Rick Atkinson, probably one of the best works on the US Army in the West goes significantly into the politics around Operations Torch/North Africa, it paints a pretty awful picture of Darlan as a preening self-serving human being, an ineffective leader, an idiot and an anti-semite. There's turning refugees away at a time when that was more common - but still deplorable - and then there's almost gleefully going after the Jewish population in French North Africa, seizing their possessions and going out of his way to make sure they were sent to camps.

He fought harder against than for the Allies though he was happy to flip-flop, and his inaction in French Tunisia when the Germans started reinforcing cost serious allied casualties. The guy then had the gall to demand a seat at the top table.

This is a Naval Game, we should get a Naval commander, not just someone who happened to be an Admiral but was mostly a land snake..

1 hour ago, SparvieroVV said:

When heavier enemy units appear get speed boost to go "scout the other side for the actual fleet"

Maybe we can get Vian and Bruno Brivonesi in a package together then?

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20 minutes ago, mofton said:

 

This is a Naval Game, we should get a Naval commander, not just someone who happened to be an Admiral but was mostly a land snake..

Maybe we can get Vian and Bruno Brivonesi in a package together then?

I agree and with the Japanese and U.S. admirals, quite a few served at sea during the war.

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1 hour ago, SparvieroVV said:

 

I just hope we don't have min/max spreadsheets on captains that people should be running for rank/clan wars/etc. 

Not to be a downer, but you can pretty much count on it. Considering  Jack Dunkirk notably improves the performance you can get out of the brit cruisers and could also be specced into a fast reload DCP for brit BBs. Same too with Yamamoto, while a kraken in a clan fight may be exceedingly rare a free consumable for a Yamato is that much extra healing for him if he gets first blood. You can already pretty much count on seagull being in des moines also.

The saving grace of the matter is thus far everyone has had a fair shot at all the captains and they haven't been particularly hard to get. How they'll handle the time gating of some of them is a different matter. Pretty sure seagull can't be obtained anymore.

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Might want to reread Mofton. Libeccio wasn't sunk because Brivonesi ran away. He cleared out because he would have been on the wrong side of the fires. His point was actually proven by returning to the area. Vian also managed to get his entire convoy destroyed and was still allowed to act like a spoiled brat and get an entire operation canceled later.   :cap_popcorn:

 

So between the two Vian is definitely the winner. :cap_like:

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1 hour ago, SparvieroVV said:

Might want to reread Mofton. Libeccio wasn't sunk because Brivonesi ran away. He cleared out because he would have been on the wrong side of the fires. His point was actually proven by returning to the area. Vian also managed to get his entire convoy destroyed and was still allowed to act like a spoiled brat and get an entire operation canceled later.   :cap_popcorn:

 

So between the two Vian is definitely the winner. :cap_like:

Brivonesi had 2 heavy cruisers and 10 destroyers to escort 7 merchants. He was attacked by 2 light cruisers and 2 destroyers and lost all 7 merchants and a destroyer.

However you want to cut it, as a 'covering force' he was worse than entirely useless.

Vian had 5 cruisers and 18 destroyers to escort 4 merchants. He was attacked by a battleship, 3 cruisers and 10 destroyers. The convoy lost 1 merchant to air attack at sea. 3 ships made it into Malta. Once there, it's mostly up to the RAF/Army to protect them.

 

There is just no comparison. I don't see 1/4 ships lost to air attack as 'wiped out'. Tactical choices and decisions on the fly may be questionable but points win prizes. Vian made mistakes, but given that he'd led a destroyer attack on Bismarck I'm not sure if his personal courage can be questioned that easily.

 

  • Cool 1

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Russia: Isakov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Isakov

Torpedo officer on several DDs (including Izyaslav) in WWI then Gun commander on Izyaslav during Civil War, chief of the Main Maritime Staff in WWII (mainly logistics I think).

So improved EM, BFT & Torp Reload/Superintendant?

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USN gets Admiral Nimitz, he never leaves port but can make sure shells, repair cost, and resupply are cheap.

 

His legendary skill: Has access to the Japanese Naval code, every single Japanese ship is shown on the mini-map, just the Japanese ships.

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7 hours ago, Cobraclutch said:

Increased torpedo reload perk ? :P  +1

LOL

Thats a beauty of a story eh!

l like your idea :Smile_teethhappy:

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10 hours ago, SparvieroVV said:

 

Ooh I have this one. :cap_popcorn:

 

When heavier enemy units appear get speed boost to go "scout the other side for the actual fleet"

when someone else starts trying to lead the team be able to place false enemy icon contacts on the minimap to disrupt their efforts. 

Don't like Vian?

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4 hours ago, _Jayzilla said:

USN gets Admiral Nimitz, he never leaves port but can make sure shells, repair cost, and resupply are cheap.

 

His legendary skill: Has access to the Japanese Naval code, every single Japanese ship is shown on the mini-map, just the Japanese ships.

Good one!

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5 minutes ago, Montana_Prussian said:

Don't like Vian?

 

I've always been amused how he is regarded. 

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I would be down if the tier requirements for all of their campaigns aren't tier 8 make it like wot campaigns and have ones for mid tiers too.

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I don't think these officers have been mentioned, but they might be worth some consideration.

U.K.

Bruce Fraser: The British Admiral who fought the last battleship on battleship action for the Royal Navy at the Battle of North Cape, which featured the Duke of York versus the Scharnhorst.  

James Somerville: The best British carrier admiral in the Royal Navy.  He sortied Force H with Ark Royal to chase the Bismarck, and led the British carrier force in the closing days of the Pacific Theater.  However he is a controversial figure as the officer who presided over the bombardment of Mers el Kebir.

Italy

Angelo Iachino: An Italian Admiral who led the Italian Navy several sorties into the Mediterranean including the Battle of Cape Matapan.  I know this one is a stretch since his record is dubious, but he nonetheless is noted as being the commander of the Italian Fleet through several of its actions in the Mediterranean Theater.

Japan

Chuichi Nagumo: Commander of the Japanese Carrier Force from Pearl Harbor to Guadalcanal.  He might also be too controversial because he did lead the carriers on the Pearl Harbor attack, but he is a decent counterpoint to Halsey, Spruance, or Fletcher.

Germany

Wilhelm Souchon: Might be a little too obscure, but he was the commander of Battlecruiser Goeben when she made her dash in the Mediterranean to Istanbul to join the Ottoman Navy.  After transferring her, he continued to command the renamed Yavuz Sultan Selim on several operations in the Black Sea for three years.  After he transferred back tot he Imperial German navy, he led part of the German battleship force in Operation Albion.

Erich Bey: A destroyer specialist during World War II, he commanded the destroyers at the Second Battle of Narvik, and during Operation Cerberus, the Channel Dash.  His last battle was North Cape where he led the Scharnhorst.  After the battle Admiral Fraser declared: "Gentlemen, the battle against Scharnhorst has ended in victory for us. I hope that if any of you are ever called upon to lead a ship into action against an opponent many times superior, you will command your ship as gallantly as Scharnhorst was commanded today."  Unfortunately I can't find anything about his background beyond his military service, so I can't say for sure if he is too controversial for inclusion.

France

Marcel Gensoul: Commander of the French Force de Raid, the French Navy's strongest surface force in World War II.  Unfortunately it was his force that suffered the bombardment at Mers el Kebir.

Russia-Makarov and Kuznetsov might be the best options.  I would recommend Sergey Gorshkov, but we're getting too far into the Cold War era if we include him as a legendary captain.

United States

Jesse Oldendorf: The commander in the United States Navy's last battleship on battleship action at the Surigao Strait where several battleships that survived Pearl Harbor fired their guns in anger.

Samuel Eliot Morison: Author of the 15 volume History of United States Naval Operations in World War II, which was the inspiration for the TV series Victory at Sea.  What? I'm a historian by training, and I wouldn't be a good one if I left him out, plus it's 2330 as I'm writing this, and I'm getting a little loopy.  

 

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