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Madman7

Now we need DDs with Chaff

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Has anyone ever seen the original 1940s radar screens? They weren't targeting quality data. If radar provided a semi-location (like the outline shapes in the mini-map when a ship is out of visual range), that would be ideal. It locates the enemy (which is what is was supposed to do), but doesn't provide enough detail for targetting data. 

That being said, a clever captain can use some logic and additional data to get really close if they want to. 

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2 minutes ago, OgreMkV said:

Has anyone ever seen the original 1940s radar screens? They weren't targeting quality data. If radar provided a semi-location (like the outline shapes in the mini-map when a ship is out of visual range), that would be ideal. It locates the enemy (which is what is was supposed to do), but doesn't provide enough detail for targetting data. 

That being said, a clever captain can use some logic and additional data to get really close if they want to. 

 

You'd be surprised what US Navy Radar Gunfire Control could do.  Capt Hara of the IJN bitterly complained about it even during the Solomon Islands Campaigns early in the Pacific War.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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1 hour ago, Kapitan_Wuff said:

Meh. Rather just see a fix to radar. It should require line of sight then I think it would be ok.

 

This and maybe some thing that is a global to lower some of the ranges, a few the range is a bit much.

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Of all the cartoon-level physics in this game, I find it interesting that Radar is the one people just can't seem to accept. 

The game revolves around spotting mechanics.  The entire concept of losing vision on a ship that isn't over the horizon or behind an obstacle is just plain silly.  Yet, that's how the game works.  Stealth and spotting are how classes are balanced against each other, and how some roles are defined (dd, aircraft).  Proxy spotting, especially, is a core mechanic.

People don't seem to whine that they are detected within 2km no matter what (smoke, island, etc.).  Radar just pushes out this default spotting.  Hydro does the same thing.  Neither radar nor hydro actually work anything like real radar, sonar, or hydro-acoustic detection.  They are simply time limited, stealth counter magic spells.

WoWs is not a naval combat simulator.  It is vehicle based, elimination capture-the-flag with RPG grinding and magic spells/items disguised as technology.

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3 hours ago, crzyhawk said:

Part of the problem is that cruisers don't have the proper tool kit to hunt DDs'.  DDs are stealthier and faster, so if a cruiser doesn't have a DD to spot the enemy DD for him, the cruiser is very little threat to the DD in most situations.  Self only radar with longer range and duration would help.  That gives the cruiser captain a tool to do his job with, without allowing one guy to position somewhere safe, turn on radar and make no-go zones for DD players.  I feel like if the cruiser captain can use radar and bullseye a maneuvering DD at longer range, the cruiser captain deserves his kills.  If the DD captain is sitting still in smoke and get hammered by a cruiser from range, the DD deserves the death.

This idea would help tone down smoke cruisers too, without making them useless due to BB deletes.  Ships like the Indianapolis could wreck Belfasts in smoke from longer range, and make their lives a bit more miserable.

I can see your point..

One thing my mind keeps going to is RPF. I know some have issue with it, but if a Cruiser was so inclined to be a DD hunter, wouldn't that tool serve the purpose for hunting DD's with the radar ranges that they have now?

They could run bow on to their location without any real fear of torps and run them down.

The kicker which I assume others reading this will jump on is the need/waste of points to run it, but if that's a "true" role the Cruiser wants to fill, then the skill is available for it. Sure, running something else might be more viable in other situations, but still it's there to used as a counter

In the Commander Skills side of things, it's similar to say BB's with the fire mitigating. If a BB is having issues with fires, it would be better to run these skills specifically for that, but of course there's a trade off losing out on another skill.

I just don't know if having longer radar is a good answer. DD's are usually lower numbered on a team. Many are Scrubs that die within the first 5 mins of the battle due to radar as it is, so the threat is usually take out pretty quickly. Not to mention if said DD's use their guns, and that's pretty much what you get from radar without using any skill to see them. That's a big buff to everyone else.

I just don't believe the DD pool is the answer to keep going back to for everyone's XP needs, especially for cruisers. You can only take from that pool so much. Cruisers and BBs are effective at killing them. Heck a BB AP shell can take 75%+ of ones health at 17+km out, so once spotted, they're almost certainly taken out pretty effectively, depending on your teammates. Still, the skills are there to help out anyone that wants to know where a DD is located, and that takes away the concealment issues of DD stealth. That "counter" is available to all.

 

I'm feeling a little frisky while I'm thinking about these things, so I'll throw out there that I feel the "Cruiser issues" mainly stem from insta delete from BB's. We all know rock-paper-scissors is pretty much out the window at this point in the game. I feel more should be done in the department of defense regarding Cruisers in general. How you help that is above my pay grade, but heals/armor/cit height might be more in line to allow Cruisers the ability to be more viable.

Now of course to all of these, there's always going to be exceptions from ship to ship. I'm just speaking in general terms.

 

Edited by Wulfgarn
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3 hours ago, Seamus_44 said:

It's not just T10 cruisers, many T8 and T9 cruisers  have them, plus the MO, the Belfast and the Black.

 

The only 2 lines that can effectively use radar are usn and ru. It's stupid to take radar on British cruisers. So we have 2 out of 6 cruisers lines that can really use radar. That's not really a lot considering they are the lines people tend to play less at high tiers.

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How's a 32 knot cruiser supposed to catch a 37-40 knot DD?  Unless the DD really screws up,  he should still be OK.  100% defensive, but ok.  That said, I think RPF is a stupid skill.

 

I agree with you about the primary issue with cruisers, but I think it's disingenious to think that cruisers have all the tools they need to be truly effective.  Frankly DD's don't anymore either.  Torps are so nerfed, they're really not a major fear for experienced BB drivers, so DD's don't really counter BB's anymore than cruisers do DDs.  A BB is more likely to delete a DD with one salvo than a cruiser is.  BB is the only thing that truly counters BB.  This isn't rock-paper-scissors, it's rock-paper-bulldozer.

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36 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

How's a 32 knot cruiser supposed to catch a 37-40 knot DD?  Unless the DD really screws up,  he should still be OK.  100% defensive, but ok.  That said, I think RPF is a stupid skill.

 

I agree with you about the primary issue with cruisers, but I think it's disingenious to think that cruisers have all the tools they need to be truly effective.  Frankly DD's don't anymore either.  Torps are so nerfed, they're really not a major fear for experienced BB drivers, so DD's don't really counter BB's anymore than cruisers do DDs.  A BB is more likely to delete a DD with one salvo than a cruiser is.  BB is the only thing that truly counters BB.  This isn't rock-paper-scissors, it's rock-paper-bulldozer.

Again, that skill is still available though. I have done it and I've had it done to me in the past, but here again I have some skill on both sides of the coin.

RPF pretty much counters "ALL" DD stealth, but as you said, speed becomes the next issue that you have to face, but then again we all can't everything on a silver platter for us. We still have to work out things for ourselves. You have different Lines that are more effective than others. Some are better HE spammers, some are faster (generally and speed boost), etc..

Radar IMO is a bit too "push button easy mode" to me, at least in it current form.

Cruisers are my 2nd main, so I know the "condition", and the only thing that I can see to make them more viable is what I've mentioned above. I just don't feel making them more viable towards DDs is the answer is all.

I have yet to see anyone with a viable answer as to why RPF isn't worth using against DDs though other than they don't want to waste skill points on it and it's too situational. Not saying this to you in particular, but as a general statement.

 

 

Edited by Wulfgarn

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As a dd main, all I want is for radar to have line of sight, so that I can take an informed risk coming within its range.

For those saying that WG said that it cannot be done with current engine - loads of bull c r a p. I've known HL2 modders that implemented 100x more difficult mechanics in their mods in a 2004 source engine. just by adding new lines of code. WG are just lazy af.

What WG did with radar is piggy back it to the absolute detection range mechanic, what they should've done is create a new function that checks for line of sight before it allows spotting. I wish I could see their code...

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24 minutes ago, Vaitmana said:

As a dd main, all I want is for radar to have line of sight, so that I can take an informed risk coming within its range.

For those saying that WG said that it cannot be done with current engine - loads of bull c r a p. I've known HL2 modders that implemented 100x more difficult mechanics in their mods in a 2004 source engine. just by adding new lines of code. WG are just lazy af.

What WG did with radar is piggy back it to the absolute detection range mechanic, what they should've done is create a new function that checks for line of sight before it allows spotting. I wish I could see their code...

Since radar was introduced, I've seen the majority (different mains) agree that seeing through islands is the biggest issue. I agree with that as well, and I feel that LOS would be a great factor that would help DDs.

On the other side of that coin, it would make Cruisers more in the open and available to waiting BBs. As much as I think Radar is "easy mode", I don't know if I want to put them out into a position where BBs eat them alive. LOS does make the better sense overall though.

Another thought that's been mentioned is making anyone using Radar to become visible for the duration of the Radar. Think of it as kinda like the "gun bloom nerf" that DDs received. This sounds pretty logical to me since you're "pinging" away like a madman, so others should be able to spot your more easily. Here again, that's a good idea to make using Radar more selective and not just pushing it every time it's available.

I feel that the issues in game overall are pointed squarely to BBs being or leaning toward OP as opposed to the other Ship Types.

The key IMO isn't toward DD/Cruiser viability, it's everyone viability towards BBs. It's nothing new that this is an issue, especially to those that've been here since the beginning of the game, or at least close to the beginning. Many have their own thoughts of what should be done to get things more in balance, but I'll defer to those that have the numbers in their heads to work out a solution(s).

I just feel that as it sits right now, we are in better position for Cruiser/DD battles than anyone is against BBs. It's not the "best", but it's light years ahead of BB issues.

Edited by Wulfgarn
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4 hours ago, ZoomieG said:

Of all the cartoon-level physics in this game, I find it interesting that Radar is the one people just can't seem to accept. 

The game revolves around spotting mechanics.  The entire concept of losing vision on a ship that isn't over the horizon or behind an obstacle is just plain silly.  Yet, that's how the game works.  Stealth and spotting are how classes are balanced against each other, and how some roles are defined (dd, aircraft).  Proxy spotting, especially, is a core mechanic.

People don't seem to whine that they are detected within 2km no matter what (smoke, island, etc.).  Radar just pushes out this default spotting.  Hydro does the same thing.  Neither radar nor hydro actually work anything like real radar, sonar, or hydro-acoustic detection.  They are simply time limited, stealth counter magic spells.

WoWs is not a naval combat simulator.  It is vehicle based, elimination capture-the-flag with RPG grinding and magic spells/items disguised as technology.

Ive made mention of the spotting mechanics a couple of times. Being able to spot somebody through a mountain just because they are less than 2km away annoys me, always has. Same thing for hydro and radar. I think the main reason people hate it with radar so much is because it gets abused. That is certainly the case with me......................

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1 hour ago, Wyngs_2015 said:

I think the main reason people hate it with radar so much is because it gets abused. That is certainly the case with me......................

I never understood why so many people single out radar so much though.  I understand the frustration of a stealth reliant ship suddenly and unpredictably losing its stealth, but that's not a scenario limited to just radar.  Take for instance a cruiser, or even BB, coming under intense focus fire from multiple ships trying to break contact and fade into stealth, however there is an undetected DD that is keeping him permanently spotted. 

Neither scenario is realistic (radar can't see through islands/real life spotting ranges are not asymmetrical), and being on the receiving end of either scenario can be incredibly frustrating.  *I've actually been killed by both of them today alone.  The fact of the matter is the very nature of the game's core spotting mechanics is something that can be easily abused.  Be it radar through islands, asymmetrical detection ranges or the very concept of proxy spotting itself.  In a way the game was balanced on the assumption that mechanics could be abused.  

I could understand if someone argues radar seeing through islands is overpowered or unbalanced, but I don't see how it is any less realistic or abusable than any number of other game mechanics.

Edited by yashma

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7 hours ago, Cobia_38 said:

Just fix the line of light and radar is fine

 

 

And limit torpedo reloads.

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...and then counter chaff with another radar consumable that has a different wavelength than the dimensions of the chaff strips.

 

...and then counter that with a radar jamming beam consumable.

 

...and then counter that with infrared.

 

 

:cap_book:

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50 minutes ago, yashma said:

I never understood why so many people single out radar so much though.  I understand the frustration of a stealth reliant ship suddenly and unpredictably losing its stealth, but that's not a scenario limited to just radar.  Take for instance a cruiser, or even BB, coming under intense focus fire from multiple ships trying to break contact and fade into stealth, however there is an undetected DD that is keeping him permanently spotted. 

Neither scenario is realistic (radar can't see through islands/real life spotting ranges are not asymmetrical), and being on the receiving end of either scenario can be incredibly frustrating.  *I've actually been killed by both of them today alone.  The fact of the matter is the very nature of the game's core spotting mechanics is something that can be easily abused.  Be it radar through islands, asymmetrical detection ranges or the very concept of proxy spotting itself.  In a way the game was balanced on the assumption that mechanics could be abused.  

I could understand if someone argues radar seeing through islands is overpowered or unbalanced, but I don't see how it is any less realistic or abusable than any number of other game mechanics.

It allows people to troll other people, mush like OWSF did. (Zao spamming HE while staying invisible from across the map for example.) Cruisers need their tools, yes absolutely. But the way it is now goes too far beyond that and it isn't just a tool to counter DD's, its trollish because a ship that can normally be spotted from the moon can and most of the time does hide behind an island waiting for the cap to turn while informing his team to point their guns in that direction. Yes there are counters to that, but what Ive seen are half measures at best.

Honestly, I don't think you should be able to see a ship on the other side of an island just because he is close unless another ship is spotting him. Some say its a limitation of the current game engine, I have no idea. It doesn't seem to wash because if that were the case, I would think we would be able to fire through islands and drive through them as well if it were. But who knows.........................................

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9 hours ago, TTK_Aegis said:

*sight
And it's been said by the developers several times that this can't be done in the current game engine, so don't expect it any time soon. 

I'm not sure I believe it, considering secondaries don't shoot through islands but antiaircraft batteries do it could be true, or coding laziness lol.

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10 hours ago, Reymu said:

Give up your stealth build first.

 

Then radar can be adjusted.

Without stealth then how will destroyers last more than 30 seconds in any match?

 

Or is that the point?

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11 hours ago, crzyhawk said:

I'd like to see Radar work as self-only instead of lighting up something for the whole team to shoot at.

 

I've long advocated this. But a jamming or chaff consummable would also be good. 

 

Especially since radar is creeping like a fungus onto BBs and DDs. 

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1 hour ago, AraAragami said:

Without stealth then how will destroyers last more than 30 seconds in any match?

 

Or is that the point?

I don't think his point is that DDs shouldn't be stealthier than other ships.  It's that a "concealment module" (cloaking device), and the 'concealment expert" captain skill (magic?), are both on the same level of nonsense as radar that sees through landmass. 

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7 hours ago, ZoomieG said:

I don't think his point is that DDs shouldn't be stealthier than other ships.  It's that a "concealment module" (cloaking device), and the 'concealment expert" captain skill (magic?), are both on the same level of nonsense as radar that sees through landmass. 

So, if stealth is removed then how would you make DDs viable?

 

Keep in mind, the Type would need to be changed across the board. Armor, hp, AA, gun strength, etc...

 

Remember, they need to be different from the other Ship Types in the game. They can't be clones of Cruisers.

Edited by Wulfgarn

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7 hours ago, AraAragami said:

Without stealth then how will destroyers last more than 30 seconds in any match?

 

Or is that the point?

*slams head on desk repeatedly*

 

Thought I'd rid myself of that habit from years ago where sometimes I made "???" quality posts ><

 

Anyway, remove stealth builds from all ships, and radar can then be adjusted. Frankly I'm just annoyed WG's presented no viable alternate build, especially since CE module adds to incoming shell dispersion, making that a no-brainer on just about all T8-10 ships.

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7 minutes ago, Reymu said:

Frankly I'm just annoyed WG's presented no viable alternate build, especially since CE module adds to incoming shell dispersion, making that a no-brainer on just about all T8-10 ships.

Well to be fair on a select few ships, French cruisers and VMF DDs, the rudder shift mod can be a viable choice.  That being said I feel the the Target Acquisition Mod should be buffed to make it viable.  Maybe make it so it significantly reduces dispersion or something similar.  

Edited by yashma

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20 hours ago, Madman7 said:

Since every new set of ships has some gimmick that makes them different... the next one should be DDs that have Chaff clouds that disrupt Radar...  Of course, to balance it, the DDs would have to choose between regular smoke and chaff. 

Chaff was fired out of the Main batteries, don't see why it would replace smoke. 

 

USN DD's had a wide variety of airborn / surface jamming capabilities. Chaff being one of them. 

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Most chaff that I've heard if during WWII was deployed by air craft.

So until they give flight capability to destroyers I think we can dispense with the DD chaff dispensers.

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13 minutes ago, Quaffer said:

Most chaff that I've heard if during WWII was deployed by air craft.

So until they give flight capability to destroyers I think we can dispense with the DD chaff dispensers.

Chaff rounds were available for jamming different radar types. Chaff Load Mark 15 was for X-band while Chaff Load Mark 21 was intended for S-band. Chaff projectiles used a MT nose fuze that triggered a small ejection charge and the loads were dispensed through the base of the projectile.

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