Tactics: What would you do in this situation? Fight or hide?

[Wulfgarn]

I've had a discussion with a few friends over a particular battle that I was in the other night. I was curious of what you would do in this situation.

The situation in question starts around 13:05.

 

 

As it  goes, the Graf Spee has really only three options. He could either run and hide (check the points), turn to engage the 9.7k health Cleveland with guns/torps, or simply ram him.

In my mind, it makes the most sense to just find an island and hide behind it and allow the points to win the match, but the Graf should be able to take out the Cleveland if they went toe to toe. What I would do is pretty obvious from watching my comments, but a few others seem to think that we would've won the match had the Graf turned bow on to the Cleve.

In truth, I can see it going both ways, but my thought would be to just hide and win on points. Take the easy way out and win it without any chance of losing.

What would you do if you were in the same situation?

[Kerrec]

I would have used the nearest island to break LOS and wait for torpedoes to reload.  Once I saw A cap flip, I would have charged out and gone for the torpedo run.  In the meantime I would have also tried to take him out with guns.  Long story short, I would have made it into a short range brawl, with the advantage to the Graf due to torps.

Edit: Hiding behind an island for 6 minutes, or until win by points, whichever comes first... is not very fun.

 

[HMCS_Devilfish]

If this was early in my Wows playing here I'd hid and take the win , now with many games and not nearly as much caring about win rates I'd engage for some fun 

[FayFay731]

I mean you can overmatch the Cleveland easily, I would fight.

Besides, the Graf Spee has a heal and twice the amount of health than that Cleveland, even with IFHE, the Cleveland couldn't take down the Spee fast enough (as long as they have good aim).

[Bril01]

I would have won by points, turning to fight the Cleveland was unnecessary and only played into the enemy teams hands as they only way they realistically could have won was to hope the Graf would engage.

[VGLance]

That was hard to watch. If I was a player on your team I would have thought you were trying to purposely sabotage the match. To answer your question I would put island's between you and take the win. But I come from the camp of those who put the needs of the team ahead of my own when playing team games. Because to me, completing team objectives successfully is where the real fun is. 

[IronWolfV]

Wins a win. I'd of hidden. If the Cleveland chases, fine, he can eat torps.

[Soshi_Sone]

I play to win.  Hide...win.

 

As others have noted, the Spee should easily handle the Cleveland....but it's not a guaranteed win.  RNG has its say.  Why take the chance on a loss when it's a guaranteed win?

 

If the points were closer and there was a chance the Cleveland could turn the points, then...I'd wait for the opportune time and engage.  Or, possibly double back to re-cap accepting either the ability to re-cap or engage.  But in the instance given, for a win, the no-brainer is to hide and win.

 

 

[Edgecase]

Definitely break LOS on an island and let points do the work. Don't roll dice when the win is already yours.

[sbcptnitro]

Absolutely no need for the Graf to engage the Cleveland. You had the win on points.

[Ensign_Pulver_2016]

I would have run to the SE. More so that I didn't blow the work of the other team members. You leave me with a lead, I will protect it. Even if it is singing the Yellow Stain Blues.

[vonKaiser]

Smart move? Park behind the island.  He wants to push for the win?  Well Spee's guns+Torps+Heal will make it quite hard for the Cleveland.  But, doing what he did, once the island broke line of sight I would have pulled a 180.  ROF of the Cleveland and range are her strength in a battle like that so getting in close negates the few advantages she does have. 

I probably would have brought the fight to the cleveland as well to be perfectly honest.  Not so much that I would be confident in my Spee over the Cleveland, it's more of the fact that by pushing and going after him I can dictate the engagement how I want.  Behind the island I lose LOS my turrets might be in the wrong direction, might not be lined up for the Torp spread etc.  Adding to that the ROF advantage Cleveland has over the Spee, well I'd want to take as many options off the table for it as possible. 

[m373x]

 Classic 322 situation, painful to watch.

 I would have went behind an island to break line of sight, launch plane and troll the Cleveland with HE.

[1dennistt]

I agree, break line of sight and watch to see what the Cleveland does.  He is the one that should be pressing the engagement.  Stay aware of the situation and use the advantage of torps at close range.  The Cleveland has the advantage of speed and maneuverability, so use terrain to your advantage.  Choose where to fight.

[TTK_Aegis]

Always take the sure win. If hiding is a sure win, do it. I've done that before in a DD with the last surviving enemy screaming at me to come out of hiding so he can get a Solo Warrior. He was /very/ mad that I decided to win the match.

 

While a ship /might/ or even probably win a fight, RNG happens. Detonations happen. Lucky citadels happen. I'd rather be sure of a win than roll the dice. 

[Edgecase]

Sun Tzu, The Art of War:

“Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory:
1 He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight."

Don't even need to get to the other four.

[Psicopro]

42 minutes ago, Wulfgarn said:

I've had a discussion with a few friends over a particular battle that I was in the other night. I was curious of what you would do in this situation.

The situation in question starts around 13:05.

 

 

As it  goes, the Graf Spee has really only three options. He could either run and hide (check the points), turn to engage the 9.7k health Cleveland with guns/torps, or simply ram him.

In my mind, it makes the most sense to just find an island and hide behind it and allow the points to win the match, but the Graf should be able to take out the Cleveland if they went toe to toe. What I would do is pretty obvious from watching my comments, but a few others seem to think that we would've won the match had the Graf turned bow on to the Cleve.

In truth, I can see it going both ways, but my thought would be to just hide and win on points. Take the easy way out and win it without any chance of losing.

What would you do if you were in the same situation?

13:05 - 14:45 With the Cleveland first appearing alone and at range, his best hope is to get fires on the Spee. As the Spee I would have gone toward C around the island instead of that lazy move he did to the south of A - he is moving away from the caps he can still protect and appears to be going into the corner.  The Spee wasn't doing much wiggling and appears to be going at less than full speed for most of the initial engagement with the Cleveland.  In the first stage of that fight, I want to make the Cleveland come to me and to come to me at close range so I can use superior guns and possibly torps to my advantage.  I would have moved to behind the island at around G5 and force the Cleveland to come to me.  At close range the Spee has the advantage and one way or another the fight won't last long enough for the Cleveland to get lucky and burn down the Spee.

 

15:15: The second mistake the Spee does after going to the south of A is to flatten out to the west and expose his broadside.  If the Cleveland is reading the situation correctly, he should know that he needs the kill here and he should have AP loaded coming out of hiding on the other side of A in anticipation for this opportunity.  I am writing this before I know what happens.  The spee can't make up his mind if he wants to fight or flee.  Indecision is worse than doing one or the other.

 

~16:00: So the Cleveland is spotted earlier than I would have wanted to be had I been him and is firing HE still.  Probably fine given the distance as a citadel is not certain at that range.  They exchange fire, but it looks like the Spee is now much closer in health than the Cleveland and this is an issue.  I would pop hydro here and get close to an island you think the Cleveland will pop around to spot him early enough for torps, again you want to try to catch this cleveland if he insists on coming forward and now that you are closer in hit points the outcome is not certain.  G2 is a good spot for the next ambush behind that island.

 

16:30:  He is spotted while apparently trying to go to G2 and changes direction.  I think this is also a mistake, I would have kept going and repaired any fire on the other side.  The Cleveland is not trying to delete him so at this stage I am going for the island and hoping I can survive long enough to use G2 and hydro to get one last advantage.  Turning to face him now is stupid as he has given up his HP lead - if he was going to fight like this he should have done it much earlier - back at 15:15 I would say he should have just turned in to engage.  Now he is on fire and in a fair fight, and you don't win wars by getting into fair fights.

 

16:41 - He falls to the superior DPM.  The whole fight the Spee wasn't very good with long range gunnery.  Had he done any of the moves I would have as I thought about and watched the video, his poor aim would not have been a problem because he would have forced the Cleveland to come around an island naked.

 

I think the Spee did every step of that fight wrong.

 

[AJTP89]

23 minutes ago, m373x said:

 Classic 322 situation, painful to watch.

 I would have went behind an island to break line of sight, launch plane and troll the Cleveland with HE.

Cleveland has plane too, and he'd win that game.

 

Basically, the only way that cleveland was going to win was a long range HE spam duel. He loses to points and in a brawl. By trying to run away, the Spee gave the Cleveland the chance to burn him down. 

 

If it were me, as soon as I had finished that Mutsu, I would have gone for the B cap. If we run into the cleveland on the way, charge him down and kill him. If not, cap B, see what the cleveland does. If he charges in, kill him. If he tries to play ring around the caps, just follow him, keeping out of sight.

 

At that point, an extra 10K damage and a kill doesn't really matter, the win does. If I can win by hiding, I'll do it. That's how I got my SW.

However, that Spee didn't play very well, and the cleveland had IFHE and AR, as was a good player. To win that match, the Graf Spee had to think ahead, and he obviously didn't.

[Kevs02Accord]

Wow, that was horrible. Way to throw a match away, up by 400 pts and yolo for the loss. This craphappened all the time in ranked and its one of the most annoying aspects of WOWS. A win is a win. Break LOS and win on caps.

[CBSDracster]

The Spee player didn't know how to use cover, pure and simple. Spee didn't fire his guns once after getting spotted. It could never outrun the Cleveland and was pretty much going to be spotted whether it fired or not. The Spee should have gone around the big island into C and sailed off into the sunrise. Going straight South and then pulling a 180 was the absolute worst move. The Cleveland was just farming that last bit of damage and XP until the game ended, hence the cap. The Cleveland player was probably surprised the Spee turned around to engage.

Classic defeat snatched from the laurels of victory.

 

[FratStar4Life]

Guarantee the win and run... With the points and time remaining there was no way for the Cleveland to win other than killing the Graf. Anything can happen in those situations regardless of player skill; detonation, stuck on invisible rock, lose a turret and thus half your firepower - it's just not worth the risk

[NCC81701]

Break LoS and take the win on points is the safest play. You have 3 caps to their 1, there's no reason for you to engage him. 

[Jerych]

9 hours ago, Wulfgarn said:

I've had a discussion with a few friends over a particular battle that I was in the other night. I was curious of what you would do in this situation.

What would you do if you were in the same situation?

 

If you're looking for some affirmation against the fallacy of hindsight, the answer is: "No, it's not your fault the team lost"  and "Yes, you gave good advice to the Graf Spee driver."

 

The reason why the Graf Spee lost, despite having numerous advantages including over-match and health pool is simple: the Graf Spee is being driven by a Noob (not an insult, just the facts), while the Cleveland is being driven by a Unicum.  Reagardless, both cardinal rules still apply:

 

A) When your point lead is mathematically insurmountable, you take the defensive.

 

B) A player kiting away from the opponent is always at an advantage.

 

So you gave him sound advice, which he only partially followed, and your advice failed to guarantee victory, because his chances to win on his own merits were slim from the beginning - no matter what advice you gave him. 

 

For example, he did not maneuver or "wiggle", which would have dodged many of the Cleveland's shells at that range - but this, and many other tactics, simply cannot be communicated or assimilated via chat during a game.  Did he think he could maintain speed to get away?  That would mean he didn't understand the best way to fight against US ships and their slow-arcing shells.  Why didn't he fire at the Cleveland as he ran away?  Maybe he didn't realize the Graf Spee's concealment is just as bad as the Cleveland's and thought, wrongly, that he could "vanish" like a Belfast or a Destroyer if he kept his guns silent.  Maybe he didn't realize the Cleve was faster than the Spee.  Maybe he didn't understand that the Spee could penetrate (and quite possibly citadel) 90% of the Cleveland's hull armor above the waterline, regardless of how the Cleveland angled itself.  He broke LOS behind the island* (which was good) but stopped opening the distance once there (which was bad), so maybe he didn't really understand the advice given - because just standing stationary behind an island with a Cleveland on the other side (along with its spotting planes) makes the Spee a sitting duck.  I'm surprised the Cleveland even allowed himself to get detected, as he could have used the island to spam HE without any chance of reprisal.  As it was, the Unicum uncharacteristically allowed your Noob one last chance to delete his ship - the Noob missed, naturally.

 

All of these subtleties and more are borne out during gameplay; you can't drive the ship for him.  Your good advice and sound strategy could only go as far as his own execution...which was poor, naturally.

 

If you had advised the Spee driver to attack, rather than retreat (and the Noob followed suit), it is likely that the Unicum would have simply kited the Noob to death, using cover to block shells while retreating to prevent his planes from being shot down (The Cleveland's planes, combined with its shell arcs, are what make it such a dangerous solo killer).  So either way, your team's chances to win at this point were slim once you take into account the skill/experience gap.  Your Spee-driver could have been in a full-health, "idiot-proof" T8 Bismarck against that T6 Cleveland; and in such a situation, the Cleveland driven by a Unicum could have burned the Noob's Bismarck down without losing a single health point.

 

Still, going on the defensive was the correct strategy, no doubt about it; assuming equally skilled players, this is the winning move.

 

This particular game result, however, is due to the fact that the players are not equally skilled.

 

*Note: he probably should have gone south of the island between A and C, as that island is elevated enough to block the Cleveland's shells.