What If: France's Force de Raid vs. Italy's Sirte Fleet under Vice Admiral Angelo Parona

[dseehafer]

Greetings all,

 

     I got bored and decided to start a new series loosely based off of my old "Versus" series, only, instead of pitting individual ships against each other I'd pit two fleets against each other. I debated whether or not to make up fleets or use actual fleets from history. For this round, I decided to pit two historical fleets against each other. France's Force de Raid was assembled in the early years of the war and was tasked with the responsibility of defending France's shipping in the Atlantic against Germany's surface raiders. The Italian fleet is represented by the force under Vice Admiral Angelo Parona that took part in the Naval Battle of Sirte.

 

     For this scenario, we'll assume it's late 1941. France either hasn't fallen or has fallen but the fleet agreed to Britain's ultimatum at MEK and decided to sail with the British fleet, in either event, Force de Raid is still very much around and is still very much under French/Allied control. The Royal Navy has requested assistance in the Mediterranean and the French Force de Raid has been sent to the Mediterranean in response. Before long, Force de Raid happens across the aforementioned Italian fleet (note that this is not the actual Sirte Battle, so the Italian support fleet is not nearby, this is just a fleet of those specific ships), a battle ensues..... 

 

Overall the Fleets are about as balanced as they can be, Italy has 3 battleships to France's 2, but France has an aircraft carrier... Italy has 2 heavy cruisers, but France has 3 light cruisers.... Italy has 10 destroyers to France's 6, but France's Le Fantastaque destroyers are much larger and much more powerful than any of the Italian destroyers present....

 

France

Aircraft Carriers (1): Bearn
Battleships (2): Dunkerque, Strasbourg
Light Cruisers (3): Montcalm, Georges Leyguess, Gloire
Large Destroyers (6): Le Fantasque, L'Audacieux, L'Indomtable, Le Malin, Le Terrible, Le Triomphant

 

Warships: 12
Total Tonnage: 114,160
Carrier Based Aircraft: 40x LN401 Dive Bombers (Note, because of limited deck space a maximum of only 12 planes can be launched at once)
Heavy Guns: 16x 330mm (13")
Medium Guns: 27x 152mm (6"), 8x 155mm (6.1")
Light Guns: 24x 130mm (5.1"), 29x 139mm, 24x 90mm (3.5")
Total Guns: 128

 

 

Italy

Battleships (3): Andrea Doria, Guilio Cesare, Littorio
Heavy Cruisers (2): Trento, Gorizia
Destroyers (10): Vincenzo Gioberti, Alfredo Oriani, Maestrale, Carabiniere, Corazziere, Alpino, Bersagliere, Fuciliere, Granatiere, Antoniotto Usodimare

 

Warships: 15
Total Tonnage: 133,460t
Heavy Guns: 9x 381mm (15"), 20x 320mm (12.6") 
Medium Guns: 16x 203mm (8"), 12x 152mm (6")
Light Guns: 66x 120mm (4.7"), 40x 100mm (3.9")
Total Guns: 163
 

 

So.... who wins? How does the battle play out? What do you think? Would you be interested in seeing more of these in the future? 

[mofton]

Italy.

Well, most likely indecisive followed by withdrawal, but if not Italy.

In a nutshell Mers-el-Kebir demonstrates a couple of things about the French fleet, including that 15in shellfire will be a major issue for Dunkerque (and likely Strasbourg by extension). It also suggested that dive bomb attack against capital ships may not be greatly effective.

Litorrio outclasses anything the French have. The two modernized Italian battleships are a major threat.

Overall I don't think the cruiser balance matters much - cruiser clashes tended to be pretty indecisive. You might get some hits on one another, but if Italian-British cruiser clashes are anything to go on it's unlikely to go very far. Lead up to Matapan, Sirte, Calabria - damage and the odd hit to one another but stand-off long-range engagements and both sides showing a pattern of retreating before the BB's and trying to lure the other side into big-gun range.

Similar with destroyers. Unless there's a night action - in which case I know the Italians will struggle in 1941, though I don't know how well the French trained for night work - I don't see destroyers being much more than targets and harassers of the bigger ships. Daylight torpedo attacks don't do much. 

 

Bearn might make a difference but she's a pretty poor carrier. I'm also dubious of the 40 aircraft figure. It's widely cited, mix of LN401's and Vindicators but France has limited carrier experience and both her aircraft types are pretty obsolescent, even in 1940. Scouts would be useful, but eat into the airgroup you could put up at one time. Bearn's also an old, slow carrier which would put a brake on the French fleet speed. There's a reason IMO she was frequently being used as a transport in 1939-1940 rather than as a carrier. I'd see her role as more likely to be some scouting, which is very much advantageous, but I don't see the dive bomb attacks being decisive.

[dseehafer]

1 hour ago, mofton said:

Italy.

Well, most likely indecisive followed by withdrawal, but if not Italy.

In a nutshell Mers-el-Kebir demonstrates a couple of things about the French fleet, including that 15in shellfire will be a major issue for Dunkerque (and likely Strasbourg by extension). It also suggested that dive bomb attack against capital ships may not be greatly effective.

Litorrio outclasses anything the French have. The two modernized Italian battleships are a major threat.

Overall I don't think the cruiser balance matters much - cruiser clashes tended to be pretty indecisive. You might get some hits on one another, but if Italian-British cruiser clashes are anything to go on it's unlikely to go very far. Lead up to Matapan, Sirte, Calabria - damage and the odd hit to one another but stand-off long-range engagements and both sides showing a pattern of retreating before the BB's and trying to lure the other side into big-gun range.

Similar with destroyers. Unless there's a night action - in which case I know the Italians will struggle in 1941, though I don't know how well the French trained for night work - I don't see destroyers being much more than targets and harassers of the bigger ships. Daylight torpedo attacks don't do much. 

 

Bearn might make a difference but she's a pretty poor carrier. I'm also dubious of the 40 aircraft figure. It's widely cited, mix of LN401's and Vindicators but France has limited carrier experience and both her aircraft types are pretty obsolescent, even in 1940. Scouts would be useful, but eat into the airgroup you could put up at one time. Bearn's also an old, slow carrier which would put a brake on the French fleet speed. There's a reason IMO she was frequently being used as a transport in 1939-1940 rather than as a carrier. I'd see her role as more likely to be some scouting, which is very much advantageous, but I don't see the dive bomb attacks being decisive.

 

Great response!

 

A few things I'd like to add...

 

1: Concerning France's naval night training... The book The French Navy in WWII by Rear Admiral Paul Auphan and Jacques Mordal says the following... "The ships were well built and dependable; their gunnery was excellent. The new super-destroyers - actually small cruisers - proved themselves the fastest ships in the world. Modern communications, including ship-ship voice radio, had been installed. The listening devices were good, but the submarine detection gear, of asdic type, was still in the research stage. All the ships had been trained in day and night squadron maneuvers." So I take it as a yes, they were trained in night combat, certainly more so than the Italian fleet, which received none whatsoever.

 

2: I wouldn't be so quick to write off destroyers, especially in the relatively calm waters of the Mediterranean. Take the Battle of Cape Bon for example... 4 British destroyers approached an Italian squadron of two Giussano class cruisers and a torpedo boat undetected and proceeded to slaughter both of the Italian cruisers, leaving only the torpedo boat to pick up survivors. The only response from the Italian side - 3 salvos from the Giussano, slung blindly into the darkness. And then there's the Italian attack on Convoy BN7 (32 ships escorted by Leander, a destroyer, 3 sloops, and 2 minesweepers) in which 4 Italian destroyers managed to sling a few torpedoes in the direction of the convoy and also briefly engaged Leander in a gunnery dual before turning away. And then, of course, there's the all-destroyer Battle of the Tarigo Convoy. There are, in fact, several more instances of destroyers being quite successful in combat in the Meditteranean. 

 

 

I too think that, in daylight, this is an Italian victory. Having a 15" battleship is a big deal, especially when your fighting battleships only designed to withstand 11" shells. Furthermore, naval dive bombers proved to be largely useless against modern battleships during WWII, I don't see Bearn's aircraft pulling off anything big against the Italian fleet. At nighttime, though, I think you're looking at an entirely different story...

[SinqueScheiDeMona]

Easy the fleet is on a neutrality patrol when the French violate Italian neutrality. Because there is no way Italy has joined a war where France is still strong enough to send out a raiding force with all the money invested into the colonies. 

 

Per doctrine the fleet structure is not considered a clear advantage. Some long range gunnery will probably be in the works. However the destroyers will smoke up the fleet and keep a wall of torpedoes between the French large escorts and the heavy units. Especially since the French use dye bags and will be able to concentrate fire on a single unit. If the French battlecruisers are able to concentrate fire on Littorio effectively enough both sides will eventually disengage. 

 

Also there is some inaccuracy on the naval rifle list, im only guessing the listing of secondaries is for drama. May wish to edit the copy pasta. 

 

Ps

 

Admiral Parona was in charge of the 3rd cruiser division. 

[dseehafer]

2 hours ago, SparvieroVV said:

Easy the fleet is on a neutrality patrol when the French violate Italian neutrality. Because there is no way Italy has joined a war where France is still strong enough to send out a raiding force with all the money invested into the colonies. 

 

Per doctrine the fleet structure is not considered a clear advantage. Some long range gunnery will probably be in the works. However the destroyers will smoke up the fleet and keep a wall of torpedoes between the French large escorts and the heavy units. Especially since the French use dye bags and will be able to concentrate fire on a single unit. If the French battlecruisers are able to concentrate fire on Littorio effectively enough both sides will eventually disengage. 

 

Also there is some inaccuracy on the naval rifle list, im only guessing the listing of secondaries is for drama. May wish to edit the copy pasta. 

 

Ps

 

Admiral Parona was in charge of the 3rd cruiser division. 

 

Wups, where did I mess up on the gun listing? I tried to track down as many 1941 loadouts as I could. I know one of the Fantastaques had a 139mm gun removed to make 4 total instead of 5 like the others... Trento and Gorizia both lost two 100mm turrets...

 

I included secondaries to cover all my bases. Secondary guns aren't as useless as some make them out to be. Scharnhorst's secondary guns foiled a torpedo run from destroyers at North Cape... Graf Spee's fire was split between her primary and secondary guns at River Platte... SD was hit by several 127mm shells at Guadalcanal... The list goes on...

 

The list of ships are those listed as being under Parona's command on the wiki page for Site... At least, I thought I read that right...

 

Here's the fleet that Wikipedia lists...

 

Admiral Angelo Iachino (on Littorio)

• Close covering force – Vice Admiral Raffaele de Courten (on Duca d'Aosta):
  • One battleship: Caio Duilio;
  • Three light cruisers (7a Divisione Incrociatori): Emanuele Filiberto Duca d'Aosta, Muzio Attendolo, Raimondo Montecuccoli;
  • Three destroyers: Ascari, Aviere, and Camicia Nera.
• Distant covering force – Vice Admiral Angelo Parona (on Gorizia):
  • Three battleships: Andrea Doria, Giulio Cesare, and Littorio;
  • Two heavy cruisers: Gorizia, and Trento;
  • 10 destroyers: Vincenzo Gioberti, Alfredo Oriani (9a Squadriglia Cacciatorpediniere);

Maestrale (10a Squadriglia Cacciatorpediniere);

Carabiniere, Corazziere (12a Squadriglia Cacciatorpediniere);

Alpino, Bersagliere, Fuciliere, Granatiere (13a Squadriglia Cacciatorpediniere);

Antoniotto Usodimare (16a Squadriglia Cacciatorpediniere).

• Close escort:
  • Six destroyers: Saetta (7a Squadriglia Cacciatorpediniere);

Antonio da Noli, Ugolino Vivaldi (14a Squadriglia Cacciatorpediniere);

Lanzerotto Malocello, Nicolò Zeno (15a Squadriglia Cacciatorpediniere);

Emanuele Pessagno (16a Squadriglia Cacciatorpediniere);

• One torpedo boat: Pegaso.
• M42 convoy:
  • Three motorships: Monginevro, Napoli, Vettor Pisani;
  • One freighter: Ankara (German)

 

 

As you can see, I used the ships listed in the "Distant Covering Force" under Parona. That may not be 100% accurate (you never know with Wikipedia...) but that's my excuse for using the ships I did... I didn't just pull them out of my rear end, so to speak.

[Phoenix_jz]

Just a small clarification - Iachino would've been in charge overall, commanding the BB division. That's an error on Wikipedia's part, or at least them not being clear on that fact. Parona commanded 3^a Division, and 3^a Division alone (well, by extension the DD squadron attached to it as well, but you know what I mean). Iachino would've been in overall command had the distant covering force faced combat (as it did at Sirte).

 

Overall, I have to agree that it would be an Italian victory.

 

My reasoning:

 

Béarn, in fact, cripples the fleet.

 

In this situation, the French would need to be able to isolate Littorio and engage just her with their BBs to stand a good chance of winning. However, they most likely cannot make a heading that will give them enough of a speed advantage to pull away while still being able to engage with their main battery. Even if they could, they are limited by the proximity of Béarn to the battle - her best speed is mere 21.5 knots, while the slowest Italian ship present can make 26 knots, 27 if pushing it.

 

To further the look at the CV... While I'm not sure what her combat loadout would be, or why combat she might've seen... I doubt her successes at landing any hits major units. Her pilots could very easily be inexperienced, and even that aside, avoiding air-dropped torpedo attacks was something the RM drilled in heavily pre-war. Over the entirety of the war, the only major warships hit by aerial torps (discounting anchored ships) was Littorio, Vittorio Veneto, Trento, and Fiume (who was at a standstill). 4 hits.

 

In terms of BBs, the French are severely outgunned, and they're vulnerable. Even the better armored Strasbourg can't resist the 320mm guns of the rebuilds out to their maximum effective range (assuming their armor quality is equivalent to that of the British, which means it's very good). Against Littorio (who is slightly faster than them, and can keep all her guns bearing on them while still closing at an aggressive angle) they fare even worse.

 

In terms of light units, it's a bit more even.

 

On DDs-

Cape Bon, I will say, is a bit of an exception. Keep in mind both cruisers were carrying 950 tons of gasoline each (stowed literally all over the place, even the bridge). Ignoring Toscano's mistake in turning around, the ambush was only possible because it was coming from against the coastline, so there was no way for the cruisers to easily see the ships - they spotted them only just before the torpedoes. Likewise in the Tarigo convoy, that's an action brought about by a surprise attack. The same goes for the attack on BN7. 

DDs were successful... But it was mainly in night combat and ambushes. Fleet actions are another story.

 

Between the Italians and the French, it is unlikely the Italian DDs will try and get into aggressive gunnery duels - but with so few DDs to act as screens, I suspect the French DDs won't get to aggressive either. The commander of Force de Raid would likely worry that the Italians could try to use their superior numbers of DDs to push at torpedo attack - and the last thing you want to do when you're trying to close or open the gap between the enemy is have to maneuver heavily to avoid torpedoes. That being said, on a ship per ship basis the French DDs are better ships - the Le Fantasque class was big and fast, and well armed, and their guns worked properly, unlike previous iterations of the 138.6mm guns. While I would normally identify their larger size as a vulnerability, given there are only two Italian cruisers present (the threat of a British intervention would probably keep the close covering force tied down)*, the DDs will probably be safe from their attention unless there's nothing left to shoot at, or if they're trying a torpedo run (which, because of their small numbers, is probably less than advisable). It's a situation where if either side tried any attacks, the other side has a better than decent probability of beating them off.

 

*Whoops, forgot this isn't Sirte for a sec! 

 

On the Cruisers-

Here, it's again kind of even. The La Galissonniére-class light cruisers are good ships, but they're still light cruisers, and they likely won't have a huge speed advantage. I'm sure they could make over 31 knots normally, but iirc the weather was poor during the historical engagement and the seas were fairly rough. To compare, the Italian cruisers would also probably be limited to 31 knots (Trento's realistic top speed, especially in those conditions... unless they really felt like pushing the engines...? Doubtful). The French 6" gun was a good gun in terms of ballistics and penetration from what I understand, a little bit better in this regard than the British 6" gun... which means it will be a threat to Trento (recall Bolzano at Punta Stilo/Calabria). Gorizia will be a different story, most likely being functionally immune to a deck penetration and would have to well within 10,000 yards to suffer a belt penetration.

Conversely, the light cruisers will pretty much be vulnerable at any range to the Italian 8" guns. Although their belt should give trouble at longer ranges, the thin deck armor becomes a liability starting at around those very ranges.

Neither side will be able to close the range if the other doesn't want them to, and all things considered it would probably play to the French advantage to get closer, if for nothing else than to put the hurt on Trento if they can. Keep in mind, their RoF is slow (5 rpm) for a 6" gun.

 

 

 

Overall, the light forces are somewhat evenly matched, so realistically speaking (barring any incredibly lucky hits) the action will be decided by the capital ships. I don't see the French coming out on top in these circumstances. The Dunkerque-class was well optimized for chasing down ships that didn't want to be caught by big guns. They were not well optimized, however, to deal with being chased by ships that were big enough to bully them, and fast enough to catch them, or at least keep up for a while, so they'd be at a substantial disadvantage in this kind of engagement.

 

 

How I think It would result:

 

It would either be another inconclusive Mediterranean fleet action, or a heavy French defeat. If the French commander simply stumbled across this force, Béarn's scouts somehow missing the Italians, at most some parting shots might be fired. I don't believe the French commander would want to risk combat, assuming there's no friendly British TF around. That would be a game-changer. 

Anyways, much like in the what-if thread about Mers-el-Kébir not too long ago, reading what would happen if the French sortied before the British arrived... the slow ships would decided the speed of the French force. They're outgunned, their best option is to retreat... but the Bretagne-class BBs would slow mean they'd be slowed to a speed where even the older RN BBs with Hood could catch the French. The same is true here, except the Italian force is not hampered by very slow units (Andrea Doria being the slowest at 26 knots). Most of the French fleet, if they made a break for it, could successfully disengage, even if the Italians tried to pursue. However, the 21.5 knot Béarn robs the French of this option. 

 

They could abandon Béarn, but that would be quite the slap in the face, as even if the Italians didn't sink her and she was scuttled by her crew... that's still a big victory for the Axis, in material terms, it's another Allied CV down. Politically, I'm sure the propaganda machine would have a field day with having sunk the only French CV.

 

If they chose to try and get her and to engage the Italian in a delaying action... with heavy use of things such as smokescreens, they could perhaps delay the Italians long enough for dark to come... but depending on where this battle is fought... the longer it goes on for, the more likely that the Regia Aeronautica and X. Fliegerkorps shows up to really ruin Force de Raid's day. The longer this drags on for, the more the advantage swings to the favor of Italy, and Iachino would be hungry for a major kill to redeem himself after Matapan, so I doubt he'd instantly fall back unless something drastic happened to swing the tide of battle.

 

Keep in mind, as I mentioned above, the layout of the Dunkerque sisters means that either they're standing their ground or being aggressive - which plays into the Italian advantage as it ensures that Doria and Cesare will get in on the actions - or they'll be retreating, so they'll have to maneuver to be able to fire off their main battery - which they'll want to do, if for nothing else than to throw the Italian gunners off their aim. That maneuvering will slow them down, so they won't be able to burn in a 29.5-30 knot straight line like they'd need to in order to escape.

 

Basically, it's inconclusive if the French can get Iachino to break off and retreat - which will only happen if something spooks him. For him, those would be the threat of another Allied force entering the playing field, darkness, or a major hit on on elf the cruisers or BBs. If that doesn't happen... I don't see the action ending well for the French.

 

[mofton]

7 hours ago, dseehafer said:

1: Concerning France's naval night training... The book The French Navy in WWII by Rear Admiral Paul Auphan and Jacques Mordal says the following... "The ships were well built and dependable; their gunnery was excellent. The new super-destroyers - actually small cruisers - proved themselves the fastest ships in the world. Modern communications, including ship-ship voice radio, had been installed. The listening devices were good, but the submarine detection gear, of asdic type, was still in the research stage. All the ships had been trained in day and night squadron maneuvers." So I take it as a yes, they were trained in night combat, certainly more so than the Italian fleet, which received none whatsoever.

2: I wouldn't be so quick to write off destroyers, especially in the relatively calm waters of the Mediterranean. Take the Battle of Cape Bon for example... 4 British destroyers approached an Italian squadron of two Giussano class cruisers and a torpedo boat undetected and proceeded to slaughter both of the Italian cruisers, leaving only the torpedo boat to pick up survivors. The only response from the Italian side - 3 salvos from the Giussano, slung blindly into the darkness. And then there's the Italian attack on Convoy BN7 (32 ships escorted by Leander, a destroyer, 3 sloops, and 2 minesweepers) in which 4 Italian destroyers managed to sling a few torpedoes in the direction of the convoy and also briefly engaged Leander in a gunnery dual before turning away. And then, of course, there's the all-destroyer Battle of the Tarigo Convoy. There are, in fact, several more instances of destroyers being quite successful in combat in the Meditteranean. 

Hmm, that's a source but as France never really fought at night there's little else to go on. The RN went in for it as a lesson learned from Jutland. Unless you're at a certain level it's all too likely to be an utter cluster-party.

I would write off the destroyers as being significant in a fleet action. In isolation, in particular at night or in cruiser/DD only tangles they did hammer each other pretty hard, but in fleet actions just not so much. As Phoenix_jz points out there was often a convoy involved, a night action or other factors.

I'm not sure if the French would have had radar, in what abundance and what type of sets in 1941 either.

In a fleet on fleet you see Litorrio crippling a number of RN DD at range while counter attacks with torpedo were ineffective at Sirte. At Calabria it was a max range BB fight, then some half hearted long range torpedo attacks at the close of the day. Spartivento - similar story, some destroyers get a bit shot-up but survive and achieve nothing.

The issue with the Fantasque class as I see it, is that without belt armor they're likely to be just as vulnerable to heavy caliber splinters as a smaller destroyer while they're far less numerous.

5 minutes ago, Phoenix_jz said:

They could abandon Béarn, but that would be quite the slap in the face, as even if the Italians didn't sink her and she was scuttled by her crew... that's still a big victory for the Axis, in material terms, it's another Allied CV down. Politically, I'm sure the propaganda machine would have a field day with having sunk the only French CV.

You could separate Bearn and have her operate behind the main French body, thus removing the ball and chain. The British did the same with Ark Royal (see plot): http://ww2today.com/27th-november-1940-battle-of-cape-spartivento

The issue there is, Bearn will need escorts. At least a couple of destroyers for ASW and the French only have 6 available, denuding the screening strength.

If you do keep Bearn back say 50 miles, then even if things go completely to pot for the French, a 5-6kt Italian speed advantage will mean a stern chase of 10 hours or so (if you know exactly where Bearn is - unless the Italians have supplemental air reconnaissance they likely don't) and a lot can happen in 10 hours: nightfall, loss of contact, Bearn into range of land based aircraft, fuel shortages - my conclusion is that If you did keep Bearn in the rear she's unlikely to be lost. 

6 minutes ago, Phoenix_jz said:

To further the look at the CV... While I'm not sure what her combat loadout would be, or why combat she might've seen... I doubt her successes at landing any hits major units. Her pilots could very easily be inexperienced, and even that aside, avoiding air-dropped torpedo attacks was something the RM drilled in heavily pre-war. Over the entirety of the war, the only major warships hit by aerial torps (discounting anchored ships) was Littorio, Vittorio Veneto, Trento, and Fiume (who was at a standstill). 4 hits.

I believe you mean Pola rather than Fiume?

In this engagement Dseehafer's taken the navypedia source for Bearn - 40x LN.401 or Vought Vindicators. Both are dive bombers only, which I think reduces their chances of success further -

• Unless we say Bearn would actually be flying something better in late 1941 (which isn't unreasonable) her aircraft are old and obsolescent
• Dive bombers, or medium bombers rarely proved successful engaging Battleships and had mixed success against cruisers - Rodney, Warspite etc. were all combat-capable after DB hits
• Definitely agree on inexperienced pilots

30 minutes ago, Phoenix_jz said:

In terms of BBs, the French are severely outgunned, and they're vulnerable. Even the better armored Strasbourg can't resist the 320mm guns of the rebuilds out to their maximum effective range (assuming their armor quality is equivalent to that of the British, which means it's very good). Against Littorio (who is slightly faster than them, and can keep all her guns bearing on them while still closing at an aggressive angle) they fare even worse.

Pretty much, if Hood could cripple Dunkerque (at sea she'd have been a loss) with 4 hits from the older British 15in Mk. I, I wouldn't like to think what the modern 15in on Litorrio would do, and I'd guess the armor upgrade of Strasbourg over Dunkerque is more than negated by the Italian firepower increase.

[SinqueScheiDeMona]

Secondaries are not going to be fired during engagements while the primaries are in use. 

 

------

 

I'm relying on old memories Bearn was not considered to be part of fleet action. So yes it would be kept in the back and imagine the sortie rate would be slow enough to keep the Italian fleet able to mount a manageable defense. If Joffre had been available with lend lease US aircraft would have been a different story. I still think one has to give the odds of at least one unit being hurt. I think the divebombers will be more of a danger than torp bombers. Also VV was a suicide drop and Trento mistook the Beaufighters for German aircraft until too late. 

 

The French large destroyers I think will be a real problem unless as stated they are weakened as a close escort for Bearn.  Going by the performance of Guépard and Valmy the Italian screening force will be forced to smoke up quickly. Even without a couple of destroyers being under the guns of three light cruisers, if the Italian heavy cruisers are unable to keep their attention, will cause the Italian destroyers onto the defensive.   It will depend on how willing the French Admiral will want to commit to breaking the screen. The Italian heavy units are each going to be targeting separate units. Unless Iachino thinks the scarometers on Littorio and one of the rebuilds can accurately differentiate each other's shells. The French fighter cap will probably mean the Italians aren't spotting past the smoke screen. I don't believe Iachino would close without causing serious damage to one of the battlecruisers and a couple of cruisers at least. All those fast firing 138-152 rifles present a significant threat of their own. 

 

I dont see this as being anything more than an engagement at range where 2-3 ships are smoked up after suffering hits. I imagine an Italian destroyer might be lost in learning not to engage with the French heavy destroyers. If one of the French battlecruisers loses a turret I imagine the French will be the first to turn. Afaik the French battlecruisers had similar dispersion problems to their larger cousins. Which means everyone will be think they are being straddled fairly quickly. 

[Phoenix_jz]

1 hour ago, mofton said:

Hmm, that's a source but as France never really fought at night there's little else to go on. The RN went in for it as a lesson learned from Jutland. Unless you're at a certain level it's all too likely to be an utter cluster-party.

I would write off the destroyers as being significant in a fleet action. In isolation, in particular at night or in cruiser/DD only tangles they did hammer each other pretty hard, but in fleet actions just not so much. As Phoenix_jz points out there was often a convoy involved, a night action or other factors.

I'm not sure if the French would have had radar, in what abundance and what type of sets in 1941 either.

In a fleet on fleet you see Litorrio crippling a number of RN DD at range while counter attacks with torpedo were ineffective at Sirte. At Calabria it was a max range BB fight, then some half hearted long range torpedo attacks at the close of the day. Spartivento - similar story, some destroyers get a bit shot-up but survive and achieve nothing.

The issue with the Fantasque class as I see it, is that without belt armor they're likely to be just as vulnerable to heavy caliber splinters as a smaller destroyer while they're far less numerous.

 

It only says they could conduct maneuvers at night, so I'm not sure exactly what that means. If that just means keep a formation at night, than that's no better than the Italians. Combat is a very different story.

 

1 hour ago, mofton said:

You could separate Bearn and have her operate behind the main French body, thus removing the ball and chain. The British did the same with Ark Royal (see plot): http://ww2today.com/27th-november-1940-battle-of-cape-spartivento

The issue there is, Bearn will need escorts. At least a couple of destroyers for ASW and the French only have 6 available, denuding the screening strength.

If you do keep Bearn back say 50 miles, then even if things go completely to pot for the French, a 5-6kt Italian speed advantage will mean a stern chase of 10 hours or so (if you know exactly where Bearn is - unless the Italians have supplemental air reconnaissance they likely don't) and a lot can happen in 10 hours: nightfall, loss of contact, Bearn into range of land based aircraft, fuel shortages - my conclusion is that If you did keep Bearn in the rear she's unlikely to be lost. 

 

True, although the way I imagined the scenario, it was a chance encounter so they wouldn't be that distant:

 

Quote

Before long, Force de Raid happens across the aforementioned Italian fleet 

 

But either way, as you pointed out, she'd need DD escort... And DDs isn't something Force de Raid can spare in this battle. Recon can always be kind of spotty, although I imagine a CV would at least be hard to mistake. Her going unspotted could easily happen, although the appearance of French carrier Aircraft would give away her presence.

 

1 hour ago, mofton said:

I believe you mean Pola rather than Fiume?

In this engagement Dseehafer's taken the navypedia source for Bearn - 40x LN.401 or Vought Vindicators. Both are dive bombers only, which I think reduces their chances of success further -

• Unless we say Bearn would actually be flying something better in late 1941 (which isn't unreasonable) her aircraft are old and obsolescent
• Dive bombers, or medium bombers rarely proved successful engaging Battleships and had mixed success against cruisers - Rodney, Warspite etc. were all combat-capable after DB hits
• Definitely agree on inexperienced pilots

 

Gah! Yeah, I meant Pola, my bad. Good catch lol!

I don't recall if French aviation had any carrier-borne torpedo bombers under development that would've been ready for deployment by mid-1941... Perhaps @Chobittsu would know? 

 

2 hours ago, mofton said:

Pretty much, if Hood could cripple Dunkerque (at sea she'd have been a loss) with 4 hits from the older British 15in Mk. I, I wouldn't like to think what the modern 15in on Litorrio would do, and I'd guess the armor upgrade of Strasbourg over Dunkerque is more than negated by the Italian firepower increase.

 

Yup. The armor upgrade, although prompted by the declaration of the Littorio-class, really doesn't make a huge difference for that 15" gun (5,000 yd difference from 43k to 38k roughly).

[Chobittsu]

31 minutes ago, Phoenix_jz said:

I don't recall if French aviation had any carrier-borne torpedo bombers under development that would've been ready for deployment by mid-1941... Perhaps @Chobittsu would know?

 

Bonjour~!

The Commandant Teste carried several types of floatplane torpedo bombers, closest to 1941 in terms of construction would be the Latécoère 298

introduced in 1938, retired 1951.
Maybe try the Latécoère 299? Land-based version, wouldn't take much to rig it for carrier ops, but only 2 prototypes were built



Béarn carried some Levasseur PL.7s, but those aren't exactly what you would call modern

There was also the Levasseur PL.107 and PL.108 in 1939, only three were built (two and one respectively), but the Aeronavale didn't like them

 

[SinqueScheiDeMona]

Looks like the PL.108 could have been a French albacore if slotted a better engine. I'm not a carrier guy bower to play with d.520, LN.401 and the Guppy of Doom aka Bre.693 would be awesome. 

[Phoenix_jz]

I can't remember off the top of my head, but wasn't the D.520 meant to be carrier operable?

[SinqueScheiDeMona]

41 minutes ago, Phoenix_jz said:

I can't remember off the top of my head, but wasn't the D.520 meant to be carrier operable?

 

I want to say yes. That's why I discounted any Italian spotter aircraft.

[Phoenix_jz]

31 minutes ago, SparvieroVV said:

 

I want to say yes. That's why I discounted any Italian spotter aircraft.

 

The Ro.43's might not last long, but there are plenty of more capable land-based aircraft nearby. After all, if I'm remembering correctly, the distant covering force only spotted the British because they were under air attack and the AA fire gave their position away.

[mofton]

27 minutes ago, SparvieroVV said:

 

I want to say yes. That's why I discounted any Italian spotter aircraft.

This Order of Battle has Bearn equipped with DB's only. No D.520's.

That said, Bearn would likely have a different air group in 1941 from 1940, in some kind of non collapse of France scenario.Maybe British/American lend-lease or similar. That's a huge can of worms but more fighters to interdict spotters or recce flights mean fewer strike aircraft.

There are 2 roles for spotters, area reconnaissance and tactical spotting. 

I think Littorio might be the only seaplane carrier on the Italian side in this engagement? I thought the Trento's had their catapults removed and the battleship rebuilds didn't have them? I don't think they have the numbers to go out and find the French fleet. Spotting during the engagement is possible though. Fighters just clearing out the spotters is by no means guaranteed.

[SinqueScheiDeMona]

The French had already been purchasing American aircraft. Vaught Vindicators, P.40s, Havocs, etc. In 1941 I'm sure a few crates of F-4s would probably have found their way to the Marine nationale. I just don't think Bearn would have been risked. Having a carrier with no cap aircraft seems...silly?

 

I'd have to look up the info about the Trentos. They had the bow launchers and a quick look I don't see it as being listed as removed. The rebuilds did not have aircraft, the Gorizia should have two.

[Phoenix_jz]

So, I decided to try and play this scenario out, in the same manner as the what-if thread on Pearl Harbor.

 

I decided to be lenient with Béarn, and gave her access to three squadrons, one each of D.520's, Laté 298's, and Vindicators. However, only two could be operated at a time.

 

Basically, the way it played out was:

 

The cruiser divisions are the first to engage, as they're probing ahead of each other. Parona, not willing to get too close to the more numerous enemy ships (Had it just been Zara-class cruisers, I think more aggression would make sense. However, Trento is too vulnerable to 6" fire to risk an 'equal' exchange of gunfire given they're outnumbered), elects to engage from long range, outside of the effective reach of French 6" fire. Gorizia is the only one able to effectively fire at this range (RIP Trento FC), and actually manages to score an initial hit on Georges Leygues, doing light damage.

As the BBs draw into the fight, Parona falls back to avoid the Dunkerque's (My rationalization: having a cruiser knocked out of action could open up a possibility for French light forces to launch torpedo attacks and in general being aggressive), while Iachino draws forward with his BBs. The two rebuilds move to cover 3^a Division, while Littorio moves in the opposite direction (the goal being to force Force de Raid to stretch their limited screen thin so they couldn't effectively make smoke and cover themselves if things got to hot). Short term this wasn't fantastic, as a relatively isolated Littorio came under attack from French bombers, but the Laté's were beaten off by AA, and the Vindicators failed to find their mark. The big guns finally open up, both French heavies targeting Giulio Cesare, while the rebuilds target Strasbourg (I figured the lesson from Calabria that concentrating fire could pay off might come into play here). Littorio took Dunkerque under fire. After not long, Cesare scores light hits on Strasbourg, who in return smacks Cesare with one of her 13" salvoes. Doria & Dunkerque both miss their marks, while Littorio is able to land on target for minor damage against Dunkerque. Meanwhile, the French light cruisers take advantage of Parona's retreat, and the distraction of the heavy units, to make a move on the destroyers screening the rebuilds. Their surprisingly accurate fire pummels Usodimare, leaving the destroyer stricken, while Fuciliere also takes some nasty hits. Gorizia fires on the French cruisers, but her guns are all over the place and accomplish nothing.

 

With both battleships already damaged, Force de Raid decides to disengage, and attempts to fall back. Sensing an opportunity, Parona moves back in, while the battleships pursue. While the rebuilds attempt to keep up with the battle, the two French battleships are able to open the distance somewhat, and try to engage Littorio. Her destroyer screen starts making smoke, trying to avoid any potential hits, while she beats off another torpedo-bomber attack (the attackers suffering heavy losses). While the smoke frustrates French gunnery, it also hurts hers, and she is unable to score any hits with her main battery (although her secondaries managed to score a hit on Le Malin). Although Cesare is unable to reach the French with her fire anymore because of Strasbourg's hits, Andrea Doria is able to land more hits on the aforementioned French ship,  although her deck armor is able to prevent the 320mm AP from hitting anything vital. Gorizia is still attempting (and failing) to hit Leygues with long-range fire. 3^a Division is simply too far behind, and cannot close the range on the French cruisers.

 

The French launch another attack from the air against Littorio, this time with dive-bombers (Vought Vindicators). The fragile bombers press the Littorio with extreme aggression in order to score hits, but fail to do so with sharp losses.

The crippled Malin opens up a hole in Littorio's screen as Corazziere spies her spread of torpedoes too late, while Maestrale suffers at the hands of Dunkerque's 13" guns, somehow not suffering lethal damage. However, Italian fire is fatally decisive, Andrea Doria managing to punch 320mm shells through Strasbourg's thin aft bulkheads, dealing crippling damage to her propulsion systems. However, this is not nearly dramatic as the result of a 15" salvo from Littorio that finally, and fatally, finds its mark, detonating Dunkerque's magazines in a massive blast. Meanwhile, while Gorizia's fire fails to find the same post code as Leygues again, Trento is finally able to shoot at something, finished the crippled Malin.

 

---

 

That's pretty much where I ended it. Axis air cover never showed up (much to Iachino's frustration, I imagine), but it seems it wasn't needed.

With Strasbourg crippled, she was almost a certain loss, while Dunkerque lost out to a lucky salvo and probably could've escaped otherwise.

Assuming the rest of the French forces escape, including Béarn, they will have lost two battleships/battlecruisers and a destroyer, with one light cruiser slightly damaged and Béarn's air group thinned from losses to strike aircraft.

In return, the Italians suffer two destroyers lost, with another two badly damaged, and one of their battleships damaged.

 

While a lot of things are quite literally decided by the dice here (this is no simulation, just a rough example of a potential outcome), the things I took away were:

 

- French strike aircraft were too fragile to effectively press any attacks without taking serious losses. More modern bombers could've perhaps made a difference. The D.520's would've been very useful for keeping control of the air, but the French got lucky and Axis aircraft never showed up.

 

- The lack of destroyers on the side of the French hurts greatly. While individually much more capable than the Italian destroyers, in large battles like these that's not really a help as destroyers are more useful for discouraging enemy light forces from attacking, and for making smoke screens. Because the French only have 5 DDs to work with (I had one hanging with Béarn), they cannot effectively carry out that job. The three light cruisers ordinarily would've probably been enough to discourage Italian DDs from making torpedo attacks, but the fact that half the battle was a chase basically made it impossible for the Italian DDs to close on anything that wasn't crippled. The bigger effect was that the lack of screening units made it impossible for the French to make an effective smoke screen as the few DDs meant there was always an open angle.

 

- Cruisers, as mofton said, were totally indecisive. Their potential had some weight, but not too much. Out of fear of being decked by 13" guns, 3^a Division backed off, and that meant they had a hard time rejoining the fight, and between both sides Gorizia was the only one who had the reach to hit anything... not that she was able to, anyways. Even though the French got the better of the engagements between the light forces to start with (slight damage to a cruiser in exchange for sinking one DD and crippling another, with the enemy cruisers badly out of position), it changed nothing.

 

- The cold fact is that the French are at a huge disadvantage due to the fact these are two small BBs/BCs fighting against two small BBs and one big proper fast battleship. Even if Doria's shooting hadn't been as good as it was (and it was above average, for the rebuilds. The dice gods favored them for whatever reason), it doesn't change the fact they couldn't outrun Littorio, and their poor armor meant that even the tougher Strasbourg was pretty much vulnerable at any range she was going to be engaged at. The same held true with the 320mm gun, although to a lesser extent, not to mention the platforms for those guns were more vulnerable and not as fast. The battle became something in which a French victory was 'can we disengage with minimal losses' very rapidly, and that was just because of the big guns. 

 

All that being said, I seem to remember the Mogador-class DDs being attached to Force de Raid. They were designed to operate as scout DLs for the Dunkeque's iirc, but had issues because apparently their turning circle was even wider than that of the Dunkerque. Is there a reason we're not including them here? As odd as it might sound, two more DDs would do a lot for the French in this situation. The lack of screening units really hampered their ability to escape.