Radar: Explain to me?

[TorpedoBleats]

So as a player and avid fan of World of Warships, I've had quite a few headscratching moments when it came to the logic of Wargaming's choice of consumable usefulness. 

Namely: Radar.

 

As a player that just got to tier 8, I'm now seeing just how prolific radar is both as a consumable and as a "Y" button bound headache dispenser. Many a time have I been sent back to port by a portly USN or russian crusier sitting pretty on cap or behind an island gawking and shooting out snide remarks between waves of HE spam while watching the pretty little dd's scatter after the magic wand of spotting was activated. While obviously a useful tool, this radar can often invalidate the jobs of destroyers and destroyer captains by making their job impossible.

 

Take for example the newly released HSF Harekaze (as an example of my latest game). I was unable to re-cap a point due to a New Orleans'es radar extending PAST the reach of my main battery guns OR my torpedoes. Any sort of attack made upon him would be fruitless due to the range of his radar, and so there he sat capping my base with an ever-growing number of allies deciding to make a dd's day a living hell (rest in peace, anime ship.)

 

Anyway, I've heard the suggestion before, why not make radar a "line of sight" consumable only? Why not make the mechanic unable to see past solid objects such as islands, but effective at passing through smoke? It seems like this would balance out so much of the hate and salt that this kind of consumable seems to invariably create in so many players. 

 

I have here a list of all the radars in game which can extend past the firing range of my destroyer, making counter-play an impossible feat when I can be spotted from any direction, by anyone, regardless of line-of-sight when radar is active.

And before this thread is inevitably deleted by some mod sweeping this game's glaring balance issues under the proverbial rug, I want to say that I love this game, I love this community, however there are certainly some mechanics that need balancing and rethinking. It's difficult to find fun in a place that prospers on the prioritized release of easy gimmicks rather than the development of environments enabling skill-based gameplay.

[Slntreaper]

Insert comment about DD mains whining all the time and how BBs need yuge buffs

 

 

[TorpedoBleats]

Just now, Slntreaper said:

Insert comment about DD mains whining all the time and how BBs need yuge buffs

 

 

Insert reply about how OP is far from a DD main and only recently tried his hand at understanding how they play so he could combat them better himself

[crzyhawk]

Cruisers do not have the proper tools to do their job and kill DD's, so they were given radar.  DD's actually make better anti-DD platforms than their counter, cruisers are.  Radar would be much better if A) self only, and/or had LOS checks so it couldnt see through landmasses.

[Grizley]

More whining baDDies.

 

Here is a tip. If a Des Moines is sitting in a cap, it's his cap. Not yours.  Get one of the BBs on your team to convince him to move.

 

It's not hard to play around radar, but you don't have invincible smoke and stealth at high tier. This is a very good thing.  The levels of smoke are bad enough as is sometimes.

[Grizley]

1 minute ago, crzyhawk said:

Cruisers do not have the proper tools to do their job and kill DD's, so they were given radar.  DD's actually make better anti-DD platforms than their counter, cruisers are.  Radar would be much better if A) self only, and/or had LOS checks so it couldnt see through landmasses.

 

There first half is true. I don't agree we need a total radar rework. That's what either of those suggestions would be. The first is even a rework of the WG spotting mechanics in general.

[DOCTOR_CITADEL]

Hmm....

 

I forgot about the new Indianapolis radar. I may have to take the ol' gal back out and troll some destroyers in the near future. 

[FayFay731]

26 minutes ago, TorpedoBleats said:

As a player that just got to tier 8

With 2025 battles, and you think firing back as a destroyer would teach players using radar otherwise...

[Thunderstruck2016]

20 minutes ago, TorpedoBleats said:

As a player that just got to tier 8

 

Well there's your main problem.  You just got to Tier 8 and bought yourself a premium DD in which you have no experience at the tier in.  Just like how DDs play different when a carrier is in the game, when you load out you should take note of all the Radar ships on the enemy team.  Rarely will a team have more than 3 radar ships (unless there is a division).  Honestly, you just need more experience playing against a new counter just like how this exists for other ships, examples being:

 

Tier 6 CV players getting used to manual drops and Cruisers having Defensive Fire

Tier 8 CVs getting used to enemy CV having defensive fire

Battleship players past Tier 5 getting used to not always sail in a straight line if they're spotted (an Enemy DD is spotting you and probably launched torpedoes)

 

Honestly, there are some unrealistic things to Radar, but it's been in the game for awhile and are you honestly saying that at Tier 8 you've just noticed that it has become a problem for you?  With how Tier 6 match making tends to put people in Tier 8 matches and the prevalence of 3 radar cruisers at Tier 7, you should know by now

[TorpedoBleats]

14 minutes ago, Thunderstruck2016 said:

 

Well there's your main problem.  You just got to Tier 8 and bought yourself a premium DD in which you have no experience at the tier in.  Just like how DDs play different when a carrier is in the game, when you load out you should take note of all the Radar ships on the enemy team.  Rarely will a team have more than 3 radar ships (unless there is a division).  Honestly, you just need more experience playing against a new counter just like how this exists for other ships, examples being:

 

Tier 6 CV players getting used to manual drops and Cruisers having Defensive Fire

Tier 8 CVs getting used to enemy CV having defensive fire

Battleship players past Tier 5 getting used to not always sail in a straight line if they're spotted (an Enemy DD is spotting you and probably launched torpedoes)

 

Honestly, there are some unrealistic things to Radar, but it's been in the game for awhile and are you honestly saying that at Tier 8 you've just noticed that it has become a problem for you?  With how Tier 6 match making tends to put people in Tier 8 matches and the prevalence of 3 radar cruisers at Tier 7, you should know by now

As I said in my post, I was playing it in a way to see how dds at that tier played. I've played plenty of DD games before in USN t6 DD's and tried to follow every guide and instructional I could for japanese DD's with what playstyle I had adopted from the USN dd's, it just seems that there's a wall that DD's have to "counter-play" around that doesnt actually have any "counter."

[TorpedoBleats]

22 minutes ago, FayFay731 said:

With 2025 battles, and you think firing back as a destroyer would teach players using radar otherwise...

Are you implying that I'd fire back as a dd? I know how spotting works, you know, and I know that firing back with guns does you no good at all.

[Snoopys_Odyssey]

I do think it is only fair for a radar equipped ship to be out "in the open" for the radar to work.  Hiding behind an island while using radar through said island is a broken mechanic of the game.  Land masses block radar....period, end of story.  WG needs to fix this absurd violation of the "law of physics",  meanwhile many a DD (or any ship for that matter) is paying the price for this unfair broken mechanics when they should not be detected by radar behind a land mass.

 

Let me guess.....WG never studied law?

[alexf24]

I do agree there is way too much radar and radar going through islands is ridiculous.

That said, the solution I see is the one that WG has used before, namely, buff BBs and nerf DDs.

Cruisers are fine. They are squishy so give them more radar..

[HazeGrayUnderway]

DD concealment range > Cruisers

 

Outspot the Cruiser, let the Battleships feast on it.  I'd be very careful about getting closer.  You can also drop torps and hope to get lucky or drive it off the cap, but hydro may be running.  

 

The presence of islands and additional players complicates things.  There are times when a ship should not engage another.

 

Here's another tip:  A ship may have Radar, but it is not active the entire match.  Look at that chart you posted OP.

[Madwolf05]

Buff battle awareness of all humans.

[Thunderstruck2016]

28 minutes ago, TorpedoBleats said:

As I said in my post, I was playing it in a way to see how dds at that tier played. I've played plenty of DD games before in USN t6 DD's and tried to follow every guide and instructional I could for japanese DD's with what playstyle I had adopted from the USN dd's, it just seems that there's a wall that DD's have to "counter-play" around that doesnt actually have any "counter."

The Farragut plays nothing like a Harekaze.  I don't know why you're trying to play a Japanese DD like an American one, even if you can have the "same" guns as a U.S. DD you shouldn't suddenly play the Harekaze like it is one.  You said you tried to follow every guide, did you read LittleWhiteMouse guide to the Harekaze.  In it she states that the C-Hull (one with American guns) has the lowest DPM of any T8 DD.  This means that you really shouldn't take this into a gunfight with another DD.  She also has a small health pool so you really don't want to be getting close to enemy DDs either.

 

Harekaze is unique, do not play her exactly like any other ship because she is not like any other. (You should know this, you play the Atlanta.  Do you play the Atlanta like the Pensacola?)

 

I was going to talk about your "wall" next, but seriously you have 1 game of the Farragut in Randoms and 15 in Ranked.  I don't know of any other T6 US DD besides the Farragut but don't cite that as evidence.  Sims on the other hand you have more experience playing but that's Tier 7.  Yes, Radar could need an update, is it a wall, no.

Nowhere near close a "wall".  UNLESS all Cruisers are going full concealment build, pretty much every time you're going to outspot them. 

 

Again, the MAIN problem you have is that you are not experienced in Japanese DDs at Tier 8 and you're playing a Japanese DD like a US DD because you see the pitiful 3 guns and think, I can out gun a Benson because I have the same gun as him when he has 2 more guns than you and at can have 5k more HP than you.  

[CylonRed]

Limitation of the game engine is the issue with radar seeing thru solid objects.

[Captain_Dorja]

I'm still trying to figure of how HSF Harekaze had shorter gun and torpedo range than New Orleans radar. NO radar only reaches out to 8.9km.

 

I don't recall what Harekaze gun range is, but I know the torps are 10km. Welcome to why I rarely use TA.

[Captain_Dorja]

I also mind of laughed at the phrase "magic wand of spotting." As if it's more silly than the magic cloak of invisibility it's meant to reign in...

 

 

[FayFay731]

1 hour ago, TorpedoBleats said:

Are you implying that I'd fire back as a dd? I know how spotting works, you know, and I know that firing back with guns does you no good at all.

Then why are you complaining if radar ranges exceed your destroyer's gun range because they hardly ever do unless you're playing ships with the stock range against VMF cruisers. Both of which is highly situational.

[Atom_Alchemist]

Fun fact.

 

you do not have to be IN smoke to benefit from it.

 

aka if you are 10km BEHIND a line of smoke, but the smoke is between you and the enemy, guess what YOU CAN'T BE SPOTTED.

 

oh and if the enemy is 5km from that smoke as well that 15km which means no radar in teh game can detecct you..

 

 

[TheKrimzonDemon]

rofl.  Once again, panic ensues over a consumable that lasts, at most, 40 seconds, and that only on a couple of ships, and has a cooldown of at least 2 minutes, more likely it's 3. So, turn around, wait a few seconds, and go back to what you were doing. It's literally that simple.

 

Or, you know, you could just let it consume and control you and ruin the game for you because you just can't handle it.

 

The one and only thing wrong with radar is that it sees through land. However, even then, it only lasts, at most, 40 seconds. Most of the time it's 25-30. if you're gonna let that brief amount of time control how your entire 15 minutes in game goes, that is 100% on you, and not the game nor its mechanics.

 

And this is from a DD driver. Radar gives me no issues, none, zip, zero.

 

ADAPT.

[TheKrimzonDemon]

46 minutes ago, Captain_Dorja said:

I'm still trying to figure of how HSF Harekaze had shorter gun and torpedo range than New Orleans radar. NO radar only reaches out to 8.9km.

 

I don't recall what Harekaze gun range is, but I know the torps are 10km. Welcome to why I rarely use TA.

Hare has the same gun range as Kagero, iirc. Something like 9.4km. I think. Sad that I don't recall it exactly, but I haven't played either of them in a while.

[Wulfgarn]

2 hours ago, Grizley said:

More whining baDDies.

 

Here is a tip. If a Des Moines is sitting in a cap, it's his cap. Not yours.  Get one of the BBs on your team to convince him to move.

 

It's not hard to play around radar, but you don't have invincible smoke and stealth at high tier. This is a very good thing.  The levels of smoke are bad enough as is sometimes.

Only whining I see at this point is you. It's seems to be pretty common for you lately.

How about stop whining and pay attention what peeps are saying..

[yashma]

2 hours ago, db4100 said:

Land masses block radar....period, end of story.  WG needs to fix this absurd violation of the "law of physics"

Sure thing, but if we want to start caring about reality then radar should be permanently active and given its historical range.  After all, it would be a travesty if the in game radar wasn't realistic.