Why the Hakuryu instead of the Shinano?

[Ghostryderflyby]

So I have to wonder why WOWS chose to go with the Hakuryu, a ship in blueprint only, when they had the Shinano they could have gone with, an actual ship that entered service and was superior to the Hakuryu. Granted she was sunk by the USS Archerfish and 4 well placed torpedoes on her first operational voyage, but she actually entered service and was the equal of the Midway, vs the Hakuryu, which never went beyond blueprint phase. That and the Shinano was the largest aircraft carrier of the war (56,000 tons dry weight, 69,000 tons fully loaded), since she started out as a sister ship to the Yamato and Musashi in 1940, but was converted to a CV after the Japanese soundly lost the Battle of the Midway.

[Lert]

Because Shinano has the airplane capacity for tier 8, maybe, not tier 10.

[Sakuzhi]

Interesting question.

 

Quote

Because Shinano has the airplane capacity for tier 8, maybe, not tier 10.

47 Planes, +120 Spares would lead one to conclude that she isn't hurting for the number of aircraft possible.

[RipNuN2]

Shinano iirc had a really small hanger.

[Ghostryderflyby]

Just now, Lert said:

Because Shinano has the airplane capacity for tier 8, maybe, not tier 10.

120 airplanes is not Tier 8 capacity. ;)

[Lert]

Just now, Ghostryderflyby said:

120 airplanes is not Tier 8 capacity. ;)

Try 47.

[Ghostryderflyby]

Just now, Lert said:

Try 47.

That's how many planes she had on board when she was sunk, not her capacity. Her capacity was 120.

[Sakuzhi]

1 minute ago, Lert said:

Try 47.

She was given 47, with over 120 spares.

 

Clearly it could handle more than 47 aircraft, She simply didn't get more given the state of the war and such.

 

Not to mention her captain was an idiot that caused her to die in the fashion she did.

[1nv4d3rZ1m]

The shinano was not an equal of the midway or better than the hak. It didn't have capacity for planes and was instead built as a support CV to help handle planes and repairs for other cvs. 

Just now, Ghostryderflyby said:

That's how many planes she had on board when she was sunk, not her capacity. Her capacity was 120.

No 47 is the active air group the 120 number refers to planes in storage. The shinano didn't have the pilots to handle that many planes and the planes in storage would have to be assembled to be ready to use.

[Lert]

Huh. Learn something new.

In that case, I don't know why she was kept out of the tree. I know that she was modeled and playtested. Maybe to keep as possible premium?

[Big_Spud]

She could carry 120 planes....completely disassembled and crated up for transport. Most of the maximum numbers I've seen for an actual functional loadout (aircraft handling requirements and facilities taken into account) has been around 70, which is still more tier 8 capacity than tier 9 or 10.

[Ghostryderflyby]

2 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

The shinano was not an equal of the midway or better than the hak. It didn't have capacity for planes and was instead built as a support CV to help handle planes and repairs for other cvs. 

No 47 is the active air group the 120 number refers to planes in storage. The shinano didn't have the pilots to handle that many planes and the planes in storage would have to be assembled to be ready to use.

She wasn't built as a support carrier, the reason her air group was 47, was because at that stage of the war, Japan didn't have the pilots to fly them, not because she didn't have the capacity to launch them. 

[Sakuzhi]

Just now, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

The shinano was not an equal of the midway or better than the hak. It didn't have capacity for planes and was instead built as a support CV to help handle planes and repairs for other cvs. 

No 47 is the active air group the 120 number refers to planes in storage. The shinano didn't have the pilots to handle that many planes and the planes in storage would have to be assembled to be ready to use.

Yet the Graf is getting double what she was given. The lack of pilots should be 'dropped' as an idea given that many realistic factors are omitted. 

 

Thus we get Iowa-class Battleships that go their theorical hull speed max.

[pewpewpew42]

I'll stick with Lert's theory that it's being kept as a Premium for later, I guess in the same fashion as Katori.

[Big_Spud]

13 minutes ago, Sakuzhi said:

 

Yet the Graf is getting double what she was given. The lack of pilots should be 'dropped' as an idea given that many realistic factors are omitted. 

 

Thus we get Iowa-class Battleships that go their theorical hull speed max.

 

Again, the actual handling facilities for launching and supplying planes puts the maximum operational number at about 70 because of how the hangar and flight control centers were set up. The 120 number comes from all of the ones stored in various states of disassembly which would take between one and two days to render ready for operational use.. The way the hangar (singular, because as far as I know it was a single large one) was set up pretty much precludes actually operating any more than that.

[Cruxdei]

a ship that get insta spotted the moment the match begins.

[Ghostryderflyby]

8 minutes ago, Sakuzhi said:

Not to mention her captain was an idiot that caused her to die in the fashion she did.

I would have to agree. Continuing to run flank when you just took 4 torpedoes, for fear of taking more, is a great way of pumping a whole lot of extra water into your boat, and ensure that bulkheads fail. Slow down and send your escorts after the sub. (I'm glad he didn't for the Archerfish's sake!)

[Carl]

Wasn't she around back in beta and then got pulled, or am i thinking of a different IJN CV?

[Sakuzhi]

4 minutes ago, Carl said:

Wasn't she around back in beta and then got pulled, or am i thinking of a different IJN CV?

Seems that way.

18 minutes ago, Big_Spud said:

 

Again, the actual handling facilities for launching and supplying planes puts the maximum operational number at about 70 because of how the hangar and flight control centers were set up. The 120 number comes from all of the ones stored in various states of disassembly which would take between one and two days to render ready for operational use.. The way the hangar (singular, because as far as I know it was a single large one) was set up pretty much precludes actually operating any more than that.

Eh, I don't entirely believe that given that there are three times the spares as Aircraft.

 

Granted, I don't expect it to have 160 aircraft. -But- the number could be reasonably assumed to be closer to 100, if not over stated number.

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't mind having a T8 IJN CV premium.

 

Side note Spud, you have any data on the front bulkhead for the Alaska?

[Shigure_DD]

Yes shinano was around in CBT and you saw them mostly yolo into a cap in kill things with her secondary's.

[Ghostryderflyby]

2 minutes ago, Sakuzhi said:

Seems that way.

Eh, I don't entirely believe that given that there are three times the spares as Aircraft.

 

Granted, I don't expect it to have 160 aircraft. -But- the number could be reasonably assumed to be closer to 100, if not over stated number.

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't mind having a T8 IJN CV premium.

 

Side note Spud, you have any data on the front bulkhead for the Alaska?

I agree. If memory serves, she had 120 in storage, and 47 operational, which should easily give her an operational capacity of 100 (if Japan would have had the pilots to fly them at that point), IE Tier X capacity.

[Big_Spud]

27 minutes ago, Sakuzhi said:

Seems that way.

Eh, I don't entirely believe that given that there are three times the spares as Aircraft.

 

Granted, I don't expect it to have 160 aircraft. -But- the number could be reasonably assumed to be closer to 100, if not over stated number.

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't mind having a T8 IJN CV premium.

 

Side note Spud, you have any data on the front bulkhead for the Alaska?

 

She could probably manage 100 assembled planes at absolute overflow capacity using American deck parking techniques, but the actual sustainable number is going to be lower than that simply because she lacks the facilities to HANDLE 100 operational planes. Not enough fuel pumps, operational workshops, inadequate control units, etc.

 

Keep in mind that the maximum sustainable number on a Midway is only a little over 100, by pure virtue of it being designed from the ground up to actually handle that number regularly during operations. Even with the implementation of the latest in aircraft control technology, that number was considered to be extremely stressing the system as a whole, and to be the absolute limit of how large a single carriers airgroup could be and retain some semblance of order.

 

As for Alaskas bulkhead, what exactly do you need to know? Just the thickness? Frontal bulkhead is listed as 260 mm, the steering gear bulkhead as 270 mm.

[Carl]

26 minutes ago, Destroyer_Johnston said:

Yes shinano was around in CBT and you saw them mostly yolo into a cap in kill things with her secondary's.

 

 

What was the secondary/AAA can you remember?

[Sakuzhi]

21 minutes ago, Big_Spud said:

 

She could probably manage 100 assembled planes at absolute overflow capacity using American deck parking techniques, but the actual sustainable number is going to be lower than that simply because she lacks the facilities to HANDLE 100 operational planes. Not enough fuel pumps, operational workshops, inadequate control units, etc.

 

Keep in mind that the maximum sustainable number on a Midway is only a little over 100, by pure virtue of it being designed from the ground up to actually handle that number regularly during operations. Even with the implementation of the latest in aircraft control technology, that number was considered to be extremely stressing the system as a whole, and to be the absolute limit of how large a single carriers airgroup could be and retain some semblance of order.

 

As for Alaskas bulkhead, what exactly do you need to know? Just the thickness? Frontal bulkhead is listed as 260 mm, the steering gear bulkhead as 270 mm.

I was thinking more around the number of 90~ ish. Which as you mentioned is fine.

 

As for the bulkheads, yes that was what I was looking for, been having issues finding more specific details on the ship.

[Lord_Slayer]

7 hours ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

The shinano was not an equal of the midway or better than the hak. It didn't have capacity for planes and was instead built as a support CV to help handle planes and repairs for other cvs. 

No 47 is the active air group the 120 number refers to planes in storage. The shinano didn't have the pilots to handle that many planes and the planes in storage would have to be assembled to be ready to use.

 

7 hours ago, Big_Spud said:

She could carry 120 planes....completely disassembled and crated up for transport. Most of the maximum numbers I've seen for an actual functional loadout (aircraft handling requirements and facilities taken into account) has been around 70, which is still more tier 8 capacity than tier 9 or 10.

 

7 hours ago, Ghostryderflyby said:

She wasn't built as a support carrier, the reason her air group was 47, was because at that stage of the war, Japan didn't have the pilots to fly them, not because she didn't have the capacity to launch them. 

 

7 hours ago, Sakuzhi said:

She was given 47, with over 120 spares.

 

Clearly it could handle more than 47 aircraft, She simply didn't get more given the state of the war and such.

 

Not to mention her captain was an idiot that caused her to die in the fashion she did.

At the time the decision was made to make Shinano a CV, she was 47% complete. She had main deck, upper deck, and side armor in place around her magazines, and the forward barbettes were essentially completed. The Japenese Navy decided to make her an armored support carrier. She intended to have a flight group of only 47 aircraft: fighters, torpedo planes, and a few recon aircraft. The remaining hanger space held 120 reserve aircraft, both for support of other Fleet CV operations and land based aircraft.

As for her loss, it wasn't entirely on the Captain. The Navy ordered her out to Kure to complete her by a specific date. Shinano's commanding officer requested a delay as watertight doors had not been installed, nor had compartments been tested for leaks, in addition to many other seals not yet in place. Many critical systems (pumps, fire mains) were not online, and the crew did not have the proper training for the portable systems. The destroyers assigned to escort her had just returned from Leyte Gulf and hadn't had enough time to effect repairs or give the crew a chance to relax.

The Navy denied his request.

Now as for how the Commander operated his ship, sure the ship took 4 torpedos and he maintained full speed ahead. He and the crew expected the ship to stand up well against the american torpedos. Remember, just a month before Musashi, Shinano's sister, had taken 19 torpedos and 17 bombs before she sank. What failed them was the fact that the water tight compartments had not been air tested, and water began to flood in between compartments. The Executive Officer even reported hearing air leaking through closed water tight doors. Had she been completely finished and made water-tight, those 4 torpedos, while she would have had a list, would not have sunk her.