One thing I don't understand with 0.6.8...

[MrDeaf]

The range of BB secondaries vs. range of DD guns.
TLDR: Readjust secondary ranges to not be so broken

 

The longer version

First off, let's start with Battleship secondary ranges. Secondary battery range was arbitrarily based off of maximum gun size. This meant that having a larger secondary gun allowed your gun to shoot further.
Now? These numbers just look silly and don't seem to be based on any realistic merit at all.

	Largest 2ndary Gun	Muzzle Velocity	Round	Shell weight	Min Range	Max Range	Comments
Yamato	155mm/60	925m/s	AP	55.87kg	7.0km	10.6km	155mm/60 is the same gun found on Mogami, which happens to have THE BEST flight characteristics of any <155mm guns in game. The only guns on par are Soviet 152mm guns.
Izumo	155mm/60	925m/s	AP	55.87kg	7.0km	10.6km	What makes these guns not perform all that well on Yamato and Izumo, are the fact they only fire AP shells, which limits their utility to broadside cruisers.
Amagi	140mm/50	850m/s	AP	38.0kg	5.0km	7.2km	These guns are the same stuff found at T3/4, on Tenryu and Kuma. The shell performance is a cut above 127mm/38, but are still a dated design. Aside from the paltry range it has, what really hurts is they only fire AP, making them 100% useless at T8.
Großer Kurfürst	150mm L/55 C/28	875m/s	HE	45.3kg	7.7km	11.64km	So, a worse performing gun out-ranges the better performing gun, got it.
Friedrich der Große	150mm L/55 C/28	875m/s	HE	45.3kg	7.6km	11.50km	On top of that, this gun fires a useful HE shell, got it.
Bismarck / Tirpitz	150mm L/55 C/28	875m/s	HE	45.3kg	7.5km	11.34km	And now a Bismarck/Tirpitz secondary out-ranges Izumo/Yamato, got it.

But no, this inconsistency in secondary range isn't what I am even baffled about.
The main issue, I have, is this buffed secondary range vs. Destroyer Main Gun range.
I mean, just have a look at the Destroyers that are not pure gunboats. The Destroyers that don't have no-brainer AFT selection over CE. The ones that should use their guns, chance permitting.

T7 - 10 Destroyer gun ranges (not including Soviet DDs, who should be taking AFT anyways and will have no issue skirting secondary range)

• Shimakaze: 11.37km
• Yugumo: 12.05km
• Kagero: 9.41km
• Akizuki: 12.46km
• Akatsuki: 10.46km
• Shiratsuyu: 11.00km
• Gearing: 11.12km
• Fletcher: 12.95km
• Benson: 11.59km
• Mahan: 11.67km
• Sims: 12.88km
• Lo Yang: 11.55km
• Z-52: 12.05km
• Z-46: 11.00km
• Z-23: 10.84km
• Maass: 10.85km
• Blyskawicka: 12.01km

Out of all the above list...

1. Only THREE destroyers (Akizuki, Fletcher, Sims) have enough gun range to stay well out of T8+ German BB secondary range.
2. (Not including 1) A total of THREE destroyers (Yugumo, Z-52, Blyska) that can barely skirt T8+ German BB secondary range.
3. (Not including 1 or 2) A total of ONE destroyer (Mahan) that lives on the very edge of destruction.

The rest of that list all sit inside of secondary range when using their guns without some kind of range boost.
That is 7 out of 17 Destroyers that can rely on their guns to start fires on German Battleships, while not getting wrecked with return fire.
Realistically speaking, only Akizuki, Z-52 and Blyskawica will want to even try this, because the other destroyers lack in some aspect. (e.g. USN shell arcs, not enough birth)
This makes this list, in fact, 3 out of 17 T7+ Destroyers that can rely on their guns versus T8+ German Battleships.

 

WG, please revert secondary ranges on German BBs, or, if you are going to keep them, make it so that only the large guns shoot to 11.64km. The smaller guns, <128mm, should only shoot out to 7km.

[OseanTanker]

I agree, the range of secondaries is getting a bit silly at this point.

[Murakumo_96]

Or make the larger caliber fire AP just as the Japanese Battleships 

[Dictonary]

3 minutes ago, Jorge_Beaven said:

Or make the larger caliber fire AP just as the Japanese Battleships 

Okay... That is viable. But then again, get to o close and you instead of become baked turkey, you will become Swiss Cheese.

[_WaveRider_]

As the famous film quote states:

One Ship class to rule them all, One Ship class to sink them,
One Ship class to kill them all and into the darkness send them.

 Oops, wrong subject.....or is it lol.

[BlailBlerg]

Just now, _WaveRider_ said:

As the famous film quote states:

One Ship class to rule them all, One Ship class to sink them,
One Ship class to kill them all and into the darkness send them.

 Oops, wrong subject.....or is it lol.

Oh.  And here Iw as just saying DDs should make like the elves.  

[MrDeaf]

17 minutes ago, Jorge_Beaven said:

Or make the larger caliber fire AP just as the Japanese Battleships 

The 105mm and 128mm guns are still cause for concern.
What they lack in shell velocity, they make up for in sheer number of guns.
That and players don't even have to aim their secondary guns for them to do work.
Just point and click.

[_WaveRider_]

6 minutes ago, BlailBlerg said:

Oh.  And here Iw as just saying DDs should make like the elves.  

 It's obvious DDs are the Dwarfs - scout there, take that cap and the new voice message loop  'set a smoke screen' - beast of burden!

Elves are supernatural beings that can take you out without you even being able to hit them......that's CVs lol.

 

Edit: Except for the one ring - with it's range it can do the same lol

[BlazerSparta]

Or, drop the realism nonsense and just accept that this is a game.

 

The IJN DDs should be torp boats, and the guns vs a BB shouldn't matter. Buff the IJN torps back to something useful.

 

The USN DDs are set up pretty good to be brawlers. Don't really need any changes here.

 

Buff the range on the Germans a bit, and we're all set.

[TheSeventhSeeker]

Remove the T4 skill that gives secondaries an unholy accuracy bonus at T8-10, or reduce the bonus to a uniform 15%.

problem solved, ezpz

[MrDeaf]

2 minutes ago, issm said:

Or, drop the realism nonsense and just accept that this is a game.

Yes, as a game, there needs to be balance.

secondary range buff on German BBs, without also doing it on other nation BBs was pretty dumb.

[TheSeventhSeeker]

1 minute ago, MrDeaf said:

Yes, as a game, there needs to be balance.

secondary range buff on German BBs, without also doing it on other nation BBs was pretty dumb.

You also have to look at what else the German BBs have got - at tier 8 and 9, they have by far the worst main guns in class, and the tier 10 is by far the biggest ship in the game, and its firepower is balanced by its terrible firing angles.  Believe me, I'm all for a secondary gun nerf, but the Germans still have a claim to best-in-class secondaries.

[_WaveRider_]

All time damage BB at tier 8 = German BB

At tier 9 the second damage dealer for BBs = German.

6 minutes ago, TheSeventhSeeker said:

You also have to look at what else the German BBs have got - at tier 8 and 9, they have by far the worst main guns in class, and the tier 10 is by far the biggest ship in the game, and its firepower is balanced by its terrible firing angles.  Believe me, I'm all for a secondary gun nerf, but the Germans still have a claim to best-in-class secondaries.

Seem to do well for having worst main guns.

[MrDeaf]

3 minutes ago, TheSeventhSeeker said:

You also have to look at what else the German BBs have got - at tier 8 and 9, they have by far the worst main guns in class, and the tier 10 is by far the biggest ship in the game, and its firepower is balanced by its terrible firing angles.  Believe me, I'm all for a secondary gun nerf, but the Germans still have a claim to best-in-class secondaries.

Yes, because, clearly, GK needed a secondary range buff when it was already equal in performance to Yamato.

In fact, the FDG also has almost equal performance to its piers. It may be last place in T9BBs, but it's only Missouri that is really leading.

Tirpitz and Bismarck don't even make sense, because they are performing in the middle of the pack.

[TheSeventhSeeker]

2 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

All time damage BB at tier 8 = German BB

At tier 9 the second damage dealer for BBs = German.

Seem to do well for having worst main guns.

They do well because of the sonar + secondary combination, in addition to being good platforms - fast and reasonably armored.  The reason they do well isn't because they have bad main guns, that wouldn't be logical or true.

[TheSeventhSeeker]

2 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

Yes, because, clearly, GK needed a secondary range buff when it was already equal in performance to Yamato.

In fact, the FDG also has almost equal performance to its piers. It may be last place in T9BBs, but it's only Missouri that is really leading.

Tirpitz and Bismarck don't even make sense, because they are performing in the middle of the pack.

You're really forgetting here that it was an overall nerf to the GK's secondaries, the fire chance was effectively halved for the 105mm guns.  Your secondaries firing at 11km while closing the gap aren't going to do enough damage to make up for the fire deficit.

[MrDeaf]

3 minutes ago, TheSeventhSeeker said:

They do well because of the sonar + secondary combination, in addition to being good platforms - fast and reasonably armored.  The reason they do well isn't because they have bad main guns, that wouldn't be logical or true.

The guns lack accuracy, but make up for it in reload speed. FDG and GK 406mm has a faster reload than other nations.

12 guns is enough shells to make things stick. Why do you think Fuso and New Mexico do alright, despite having horrible accuracy?
The answer is simple. They shoot enough shells down range to get lucky.

[MrDeaf]

4 minutes ago, TheSeventhSeeker said:

You're really forgetting here that it was an overall nerf to the GK's secondaries, the fire chance was effectively halved for the 105mm guns.  Your secondaries firing at 11km while closing the gap aren't going to do enough damage to make up for the fire deficit.

I'm not forgetting that part.

Such a nerf could have been, EASILY, fixed with a boost to RoF on those guns, instead of a range boost.

In fact, that's exactly what WG did with IJN DD guns. Nerf damage and fire chance, but boost RoF.

[_WaveRider_]

2 minutes ago, TheSeventhSeeker said:

They do well because of the sonar + secondary combination, in addition to being good platforms - fast and reasonably armored.  The reason they do well isn't because they have bad main guns, that wouldn't be logical or true.

Then your point is not valid as the balance of the ship means it performs well and does damage now- good damage! The reason why it does good damage doesn't matter, it does matter that even when doing good damage compared to other ships you want better secondaries (therefore building on a good ship class already)?

 

I'm all for looking at individual ships if they are performing well or not performing well, but addressing something that's not needed - Balance!

[Big_Spud]

German battleships are literally breaking the game.

[TheSeventhSeeker]

2 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

The guns lack accuracy, but make up for it in reload speed. FDG and GK 406mm has a faster reload than other nations.

12 guns is enough shells to make things stick. Why do you think Fuso and New Mexico do alright, despite having horrible accuracy?
The answer is simple. They shoot enough shells down range to get lucky.

Since when did Bismarck and FDG get 12 guns though?

GK has good main guns but it's a terrible platform, unlike the FDG and Bismarck.

[TheSeventhSeeker]

1 minute ago, _WaveRider_ said:

Then your point is not valid as the balance of the ship means it performs well and does damage now- good damage! The reason why it does good damage doesn't matter, it does matter that even when doing good damage compared to other ships you want better secondaries (therefore building on a good ship class already)?

 

I'm all for looking at individual ships if they are performing well or not performing well, but addressing something that's not needed - Balance!

I addressed why they perform well, it's because at 8 and 9 they're fast, well armored, have good firing angles, and have a combination of hydro + secondaries.  I think the ship would still be in line with its peers if it still had best-in-class secondaries & removed sonar.  I'm not advocating for better secondaries, you misunderstand my perspective.  I want a global secondary nerf, not a German specific secondary nerf.

[_WaveRider_]

5 minutes ago, TheSeventhSeeker said:

You're really forgetting here that it was an overall nerf to the GK's secondaries, the fire chance was effectively halved for the 105mm guns.  Your secondaries firing at 11km while closing the gap aren't going to do enough damage to make up for the fire deficit.

No - stop thinking nerf or buff!

 

Think balance - ok, say a ship has an amazing ability to one shot ok bad example, to fire at another ship without return fire - nope that's BBs again. Magically heal nope that's BBs again!

 

Lets start again, just because an ability is taken away from a ship to balance it out does not make it a bad nerf. That type of nerf is good for the game - got it!!! Like OWSF (and I'm talking Open Water Stealth Firing, not Open Water Safe Firing that BBs can do because of their range).

[awildseaking]

This is the same [edited] that happened with stealth fire. I loved closing in to 9.5km in the Yuugumo to stealth fire at BB after I forced DCP with floods. Radar was a strong counter because I was always within range of it. After stealth fire was removed, I stopped shooting almost entirely because it wasn't practical to fire 8-10km torps, then range out to 11.5km for a few shots. Now the secondaries extend past my max range. WG thinks they're making the game less passive but every single update since stealth fire removal has only made the game more passive. Everyone is ranging out.

[TheSeventhSeeker]

3 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

No - stop thinking nerf or buff!

 

Think balance - ok, say a ship has an amazing ability to one shot ok bad example, to fire at another ship without return fire - nope that's BBs again. Magically heal nope that's BBs again!

 

Lets start again, just because an ability is taken away from a ship to balance it out does not make it a bad nerf. That type of nerf is good for the game - got it!!! Like OWSF (and I'm talking Open Water Stealth Firing, not Open Water Safe Firing that BBs can do because of their range).

You're completely misunderstanding my point of view, I recommend re-reading my previous posts thoroughly.