How bad does it have to get before WG fixes the carrier imbalace?

[1HandTiedBehindMyBack]

This has been an issue since beta and yet years go by with by far biggest win rate difference of any classes and we get nothing!  How hard is it make US strike include a fighter squadron in place of 1 DB squadron and most of the issue is gone!  I mean it's not like carriers are potentially the strongest class in the game, or that WG built every class mechanic to blatently favor IJN.  I guess the fact not not a single non premium US carrier is in the top 10 for win rate shouldn't be a sign, and it has only been like this for almost 2 years!  Really sucks that 1 bad choice by 1 player all but destroys your chance to win!  (best is strike lex vs as shock)  Oh wait I see your to busy putting premium carriers to fix the horrible balance and UI and putting out another terrible US carrier to boot!

[CLUCH_CARGO]

 

[YamatoA150]

Whatever you see them doing with Kaga and Enterprise; they're likely to carry it over to their respective lines in future changes.  For sure, the APDBs being an optional replacement for HEDBs on USN CVs from T7 onwards is supposedly in the works.  Then there's WG wanting to buff the USN AS loadouts somehow to encourage more use of that loadout to counter IJN CVs in the skies, offsetting the imbalance that way by strengthening the counter of the opposing line.

 

So assuming the current course holds, the USN CV line is being buffed to have options between being an anti-KM BB hunter (if using APDBs) and anti-IJN CV (if using AS loadout) specialist line.  Which also conveniently lines up with their other intentions of attempting to reduce the BB population (the KM half of it) and CV imbalance.  In a roundabout sort of way. 

 

Either way, it's looking to be a fun ride.  Moreso since Graf Zeppelin is in the works, and the still unknown RN CV line (supposed to be out late this year).  Not to mention the addition of the hotly requested French BB line as well (also set for this year; probably after the RN BBs). 

[BladedPheonix]

not this  ing thread again!

[WanderingGhost]

Alpha, actually and it's a 2 way street. IJN just happens to have a higher winrate, and even then, you get into the issue "how much of a measuring tool is winrate" when there are 11 other ships every battle usually. I can take USN AS, destroy everything IJN CV throws at me without strafing, shut them down almost or absolutely completely and watch my team wreck the enemy unhindered by that enemy CV.... or the reason I stopped running it watch them unable to sink BB's usually that obliterate the team. Which leaves AS that can if played against an outwittable enemy IJN CV, can match or surpass damage potential because Manual Drop actually favours USN CV's more if used, and that doesn't factor in AA which both lines are screwed by, the paper IJN planes even more, and something like half a dozen or more other problems I and other have listed countless times and am tired of listing.

 

It isn't them making USN CV's inferior. BOTH LINES ARE FRACKED. CV's as a whole, are fracked. They were supposed to fix them this year and it has ranged from "were not doing it in one update" to "were not doing it". There were supposed to be no more premium CV's till the fix, and obviously that failed. Both lines need fixing, in both directions, and Wargaming seems content to drag their heels to a point someone like me that basically got in to all this because of CV's and determined to play them finally had their spirit break and hasn't touched them in at least a couple weeks.

[Rocketpacman]

Perhaps it's my lack of experience playing CVs but isn't the idea of an AS CV in this game inherently stupid? You're minimizing your own damage and impact in favor shutting down the enemy CV but the enemy CV is only in the game because you're in the game and the most you can hope for is to neutralize him. Isn't the only thing you're doing ruining the other's CV game? This is without going into AS CVs who for whatever reason cannot shut down the enemy CV (and this is not uncommon from what I've seen in randoms) at which point you're actively detrimental to your team. 

[YamatoA150]

19 minutes ago, Rocketpacman said:

Perhaps it's my lack of experience playing CVs but isn't the idea of an AS CV in this game inherently stupid? You're minimizing your own damage and impact in favor shutting down the enemy CV but the enemy CV is only in the game because you're in the game and the most you can hope for is to neutralize him. Isn't the only thing you're doing ruining the other's CV game? This is without going into AS CVs who for whatever reason cannot shut down the enemy CV (and this is not uncommon from what I've seen in randoms) at which point you're actively detrimental to your team. 

 

AS CVs aren't stupid; it's mainly the issue of lacking proper reward for the task and the imbalanced setup between USN and IJN CVs.  For example, if WG would further buff AA rewards but weight it mainly towards cruisers and CVs, that would help.  Throw in added weight for spotting and damage dealt to spotted ships; weighted in favor of DDs and CVs, and that further helps them out.  Heck, WG could even cut the AS fighter squads down to 4 fighters per squad but allow one extra squad to help lock up or shoot down enemy aircraft, while reverting it to the standard 5-6 on non-AS loadouts.

 

Now if WG could go deeper into the code and adjust it so that AS CVs are fully rewarded for AA and spotting duties as opposed to a Strike CV (say, reduced by 50% since they're more actively pursuing damage), it would go a long way towards making AS CVs more viable as they'd be farming their primary reward method; killing planes and lighting up torpedoes and the enemy fleet for the rest of the match, and only doing whatever little extra damage they can with the token DB or TB squad tossed in with the AS loadout.

 

As it currently is, the meta still favors damage dealing more than support roles, which makes AS CVs rather unpopular outside of trolling the opposing CV(s).  Moreso if the enemy team wins but the enemy CV was rendered useless the entire match, wasting the signals/camouflage/1st Win bonuses the CV had.

 

The USN CVs excluding Saipan could do with being given better AS loadouts than the IJN; such as the aforementioned reduction of fighter planes to 4 per fighter squad, but adding in an extra fighter squad to the USN AS loadout to allow them to lock up or weaken another group of fighters or bombers.  Then just buff the AS loadout reward payouts by quickly having the system check if it was an AS or Strike loadout used, and giving greater weight on AA/spotting if it was the AS loadout.  Enough to let it break even or better and survive off that support role rather than a Strike damage-focused role.

[Rocketpacman]

But even if you were properly rewarded for the task at the end of the day the AS CV would still just be trolling opposing CVs. The CV would just be making more money while doing it. The impact on the match would still be minimal at best and entirely reliant on the rest of the team taking advantage of what the CV can do in terms of spotting and a little extra damage. I don't see how such a role has any business being in a random game particularly since the spotting could also be done by a strike CV. 

[Estimated_Prophet]

1 hour ago, YamatoA150 said:

Whatever you see them doing with Kaga and Enterprise; they're likely to carry it over to their respective lines in future changes.  For sure, the APDBs being an optional replacement for HEDBs on USN CVs from T7 onwards is supposedly in the works.  Then there's WG wanting to buff the USN AS loadouts somehow to encourage more use of that loadout to counter IJN CVs in the skies, offsetting the imbalance that way by strengthening the counter of the opposing line.

 

So assuming the current course holds, the USN CV line is being buffed to have options between being an anti-KM BB hunter (if using APDBs) and anti-IJN CV (if using AS loadout) specialist line.  Which also conveniently lines up with their other intentions of attempting to reduce the BB population (the KM half of it) and CV imbalance.  In a roundabout sort of way. 

 

Either way, it's looking to be a fun ride.  Moreso since Graf Zeppelin is in the works, and the still unknown RN CV line (supposed to be out late this year).  Not to mention the addition of the hotly requested French BB line as well (also set for this year; probably after the RN BBs). 

 

15 minutes ago, YamatoA150 said:

AS CVs aren't stupid; it's mainly the issue of lacking proper reward for the task and the imbalanced setup between USN and IJN CVs.  For example, if WG would further buff AA rewards but weight it mainly towards cruisers and CVs, that would help.  Throw in added weight for spotting and damage dealt to spotted ships; weighted in favor of DDs and CVs, and that further helps them out.  Heck, WG could even cut the AS fighter squads down to 4 fighters per squad but allow one extra squad to help lock up or shoot down enemy aircraft, while reverting it to the standard 5-6 on non-AS loadouts.

 

Now if WG could go deeper into the code and adjust it so that AS CVs are fully rewarded for AA and spotting duties as opposed to a Strike CV (say, reduced by 50% since they're more actively pursuing damage), it would go a long way towards making AS CVs more viable as they'd be farming their primary reward method; killing planes and lighting up torpedoes and the enemy fleet for the rest of the match, and only doing whatever little extra damage they can with the token DB or TB squad tossed in with the AS loadout.

 

As it currently is, the meta still favors damage dealing more than support roles, which makes AS CVs rather unpopular outside of trolling the opposing CV(s).  Moreso if the enemy team wins but the enemy CV was rendered useless the entire match, wasting the signals/camouflage/1st Win bonuses the CV had.

 

The USN CVs excluding Saipan could do with being given better AS loadouts than the IJN; such as the aforementioned reduction of fighter planes to 4 per fighter squad, but adding in an extra fighter squad to the USN AS loadout to allow them to lock up or weaken another group of fighters or bombers.  Then just buff the AS loadout reward payouts by quickly having the system check if it was an AS or Strike loadout used, and giving greater weight on AA/spotting if it was the AS loadout.  Enough to let it break even or better and survive off that support role rather than a Strike damage-focused role.

 

Personally I think AS CVs are completely stupid; and if not that; then boring beyond belief.

 

Wow. I shut the enmy CV down; now pardon me while do nothing the rest of the game except maybe hover over destroyers; which there's no certainty my team will be competent enough to shoot at it; or attempt to do some pitance of damage; quite possibly in a desperate attempt to defend myself; again, because of the potential incompetence of my team, and their inability to take advantage of the fact they aren't under air attack.

 

As I said in the other thread; I hate Air Superiority for the utter waste of time I consider it to be. I won't use it for that reason; and can spot just as well with my other non-fighter squads. If I get shut down I DEFINITELY consider it to be a waste of time.

 

Yay. I either get to twiddle my thumbs until my team wins, or until something comes and kills me. Such excitement can hardly be endured.

 

Yes; a carrier should be concerned with protecting it's team. To me that is best done by SINKING things; not by focusing almost completely on swatting flies and hoping the team can engineer a competent follow-up to that.

[Sub_Octavian]

Hi. Not too bad, and not too long. Beneficial USN loadouts overhaul is in development. If it is successfully tested and makes to production, I think these problems will be solved.
Sorry for making you wait, we still need several updates to prepare everything, but we're quite close. 

[Ronin_ICOP]

1 minute ago, Sub_Octavian said:

Hi. Not too bad, and not too long. Beneficial USN loadouts overhaul is in development. If it is successfully tested and makes to production, I think these problems will be solved.
Sorry for making you wait, we still need several updates to prepare everything, but we're quite close. 

Best news I have read here in weeks! Thanks for the update, Sub_Octavian! <O

[AdmiralMudkip]

9 minutes ago, Sub_Octavian said:

Hi. Not too bad, and not too long. Beneficial USN loadouts overhaul is in development. If it is successfully tested and makes to production, I think these problems will be solved.
Sorry for making you wait, we still need several updates to prepare everything, but we're quite close. 

 

Please give the USN CV's the ability to switch ammo between HE and AP bombs during battle!

[Flashtirade]

USN AS is also inherently broken in that an IJN CV can have squadrons completely wiped by strafes but then put out a wave of fresh reinforcements before the USN fighters have reloaded. While USN strafes are very strong, they are definitely not worth two IJN squads (and the same could be said for USN strike aircraft as well, but that's a different matter).

[ShellMeNot]

IJN fighters only have ammo for 2.5 strafes, with the USN ones I feel like I can keep strafing forever without running out of ammo. The reload times are fine, just use them conservatively.

 

Furthermore, USN fighters allow you to get more out of a head on strafe. You also do not need to strafe with USN at all on a fighter vs fighter. if you lock the IJN squad the opponent has to disengage or he loses all 5 for 2 of yours. That isn't a trade I will take anytime soon as the IJN cv. Then there is the issue of predicating when a strafe out strafe in is coming and responding appropriately. USN fighters are where they should be, it is just that USN AS nets you no damage capability.

 

PS: I absolutely HATE going against a 3/0/2 Essex or a 3/0/2 Midway even. The fighters are extremely superior to IJN and the entire game becomes a bait and switch because of squadron numbers on IJN.

[hipcanuck]

The 3-1-1 Hiryu is a lot of fun going up against a Saipan. Still get some damage in and as an added bonus, empty the Saipans hangar :)

 

Glad to see a Dev enter the discussion! Carrier players would LOVE to get a hint at the direction WG is going with CV's.

[Herr_Reitz]

4 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

 

 

Personally I think AS CVs are completely stupid; and if not that; then boring beyond belief.

 

Wow. I shut the enmy CV down; now pardon me while do nothing the rest of the game except maybe hover over destroyers; which there's no certainty my team will be competent enough to shoot at it; or attempt to do some pitance of damage; quite possibly in a desperate attempt to defend myself; again, because of the potential incompetence of my team, and their inability to take advantage of the fact they aren't under air attack.

 

As I said in the other thread; I hate Air Superiority for the utter waste of time I consider it to be. I won't use it for that reason; and can spot just as well with my other non-fighter squads. If I get shut down I DEFINITELY consider it to be a waste of time.

 

Yay. I either get to twiddle my thumbs until my team wins, or until something comes and kills me. Such excitement can hardly be endured.

 

Yes; a carrier should be concerned with protecting it's team. To me that is best done by SINKING things; not by focusing almost completely on swatting flies and hoping the team can engineer a competent follow-up to that.

 

Strangely enough... your one comment brings up a point... why can't fighters strafe ships?  Put damage on them?

[Ace_04]

5 hours ago, Sub_Octavian said:

Hi. Not too bad, and not too long. Beneficial USN loadouts overhaul is in development. If it is successfully tested and makes to production, I think these problems will be solved.
Sorry for making you wait, we still need several updates to prepare everything, but we're quite close. 

Any forecast on the long-awaiting CV UI overhaul?

[senseNOTmade]

As a mostly-USN CV player I used to think there was no major imbalance between the nations. My stats were just not all that spectacular. Well, I recently started my way up the IJN CV line and it seems that I am a lot better than I thought. I set my plane kill record yesterday in a tier 6 ryujo AS build (77), beating out my previous record of 67 with the balanced loadout  (211) tier 9 essex. My second highest CV average damage is on the auto-dropping tier 5 Zuiho (on the 112 loadout), beating out all but the essex (my highest tiered ship so far). I do more damage in the IJN CVs at tier 5 than in the Lexington at tier 8.

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Manual Drop actually favours USN CV's more if used

I don't understand what you mean by this. IJN torps spread narrows over distance, giving them an advantage over the USN torp spread. Meanwhile, IJN dive bombers have a much smaller spread, meaning that you often set more fires with five planes than with the seven in a USN bomber squadron. Plus, I have this feeling that IJN squadrons can engage a manual drop from closer, where USN squadrons would already do that turnaround manoeuvre. Can anyone confirm this for me?

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I can take USN AS, destroy everything IJN CV throws at me

Yesterday I defeated a Saipan and a AS loadout Independence in the skies using only my tier 6 AS loadout Ryujo. I don't want to be mean to my teammate, but after he engaged all the enemy planes alone over an enemy cleveland I knew that I would have to do most of the heavy lifting. Admittedly I did not do much damage in that battle myself, but that was my own fault (my torp bombers missed a Koenig I had just forced to use damage repair). The point is that IJN CVs have more than enough tools to counter a USN AS loadout, although I will fully admit that it requires more skill, as reflected in the lower average plane kill stats for most, but not all, IJN CVs.

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Personally I think AS CVs are completely stupid

Used to think this too until I tried it out. XD Air superiority also makes it easier to do your own drops, especially if you are going for flooding damage. You generally don't do as much damage as a strike loadout, but each squadron becomes more efficient. Plus, shutting down enemy planes, spotting torps, spotting DDs and spotting for ships which are in smoke is all very valuable, if completely unrewarded.

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CV's as a whole, are fracked. 

I could not agree more. I enjoy aerial combat because I do well in it, but particularly air to ship combat must be improved somehow. Right now it resembles a single-shot-kill sniper rifle in a FPS; statistically balanced, but frustrating to play against because there is neither a way to counter it nor any second chances. Some ships are absolutely immune to air attack, while most others have no defence whatsoever. Two days ago I got torped from full health in my Baltimore (an AA CA, no?), while shooting down a grand total of 1 plane. I am a CV captain- I know how to counter torp bombers, I was even escorted by a north Carolina! (irony right there.) Didn't help me much though.

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Beneficial USN loadouts overhaul is in development.

I tend to have very bad intuitions about loadout changes, but since AP bombs remove the possibility of getting flooding damage I would consider them a nerf in most situations unless one can change bomb types during battle. AP bombs work only on KM BBs, while flooding/fire works on all BBs and most CAs.

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Throw in added weight for spotting and damage dealt to spotted ships

I've thought about this too and it seems like by far the easiest way to balance CV lines because it would make them impossible to compare directly. xP

[Anumati]

Until you actually see something that isn't a gimmicky premium. I wouldnt take any of WG's word regarding CVs seriously. Its been 2+ years at this point.

 

Thats not even me being cynical as usual, just pragmatic.

[AVR_Project]

7 hours ago, Rocketpacman said:

Perhaps it's my lack of experience playing CVs but isn't the idea of an AS CV in this game inherently stupid? You're minimizing your own damage and impact in favor shutting down the enemy CV but the enemy CV is only in the game because you're in the game and the most you can hope for is to neutralize him. Isn't the only thing you're doing ruining the other's CV game? This is without going into AS CVs who for whatever reason cannot shut down the enemy CV (and this is not uncommon from what I've seen in randoms) at which point you're actively detrimental to your team. 

Actually, the opposite is true.

Your team LOVES you for being US AS because now they don't need to worry about enemy sky cancer.  Furthermore, they get excellent spotting and detection of enemy DDs.

It not a detriment to the other 11 players.  In fact, it BOOSTS their damage numbers and keeps them safe from ambushes.

[cometguy]

3 minutes ago, AVR_Project said:

Actually, the opposite is true.

Your team LOVES you for being US AS because now they don't need to worry about enemy sky cancer.  Furthermore, they get excellent spotting and detection of enemy DDs.

It not a detriment to the other 11 players.  In fact, it BOOSTS their damage numbers and keeps them safe from ambushes.

Except I haven't lost a game to an AS usn CV in longer than I can remember. USN AS requires the team to not spread out so much that the fighters are always a day late and a dollar short. And USN CV win rate shows that doesn't happen very often.

[Strachwitz666]

8 hours ago, 1HandTiedBehindMyBack said:

This has been an issue since beta and yet years go by with by far biggest win rate difference of any classes and we get nothing!  How hard is it make US strike include a fighter squadron in place of 1 DB squadron and most of the issue is gone!  I mean it's not like carriers are potentially the strongest class in the game, or that WG built every class mechanic to blatently favor IJN.  I guess the fact not not a single non premium US carrier is in the top 10 for win rate shouldn't be a sign, and it has only been like this for almost 2 years!  Really sucks that 1 bad choice by 1 player all but destroys your chance to win!  (best is strike lex vs as shock)  Oh wait I see your to busy putting premium carriers to fix the horrible balance and UI and putting out another terrible US carrier to boot!

well you're not helping by just observing the win rate issue. But why does that occur?

 

IMO, any real move to make US CV's more even with IJN CV win rates , is just going to make US CV's more powerful than they  already are. I am not sure why it occurs, except that IJN CV's have more squadrons, so they can scout better and make more mistakes and still have aircraft.. On the flipside US CV's are boring because you often have unbalanced load outs  and less squadrons. I feel like US CV's are weaker, but when I play them or am fighting them I really don't see it. And my win rate with US CV's is better than my win rates with IJN CV's.CV's being the only ship types I maintain a positive win rate with, for most of them. Of course I have not gone past T6 with CV's , and I don't use manual drops or strafes, and have used AS lO's maybe 3-4 times out of about 190 battles (all random except 2-3 ) .

 

I don't know if jiggling the problem , might just make a worse problem. I fear it might.

 

 

[AVR_Project]

2 minutes ago, cometguy said:

Except I haven't lost a game to an AS usn CV in longer than I can remember. USN AS requires the team to not spread out so much that the fighters are always a day late and a dollar short. And USN CV win rate shows that doesn't happen very often.

Like it or not, I'm still racking my brain over how to responsibly take an Independence into Ranked.  It's bound to be a bad nightmare.

I'd have to hold back the dive bombers until the enemy Clevelands get burned down enough that their AA fails.  I see between 2-4 on each team this season.

And yes, I've got strategies to counter the enemy AS Independence in my strike Ryujo.  But I know those strategies, so I can counter them.

What I can't counter are 4 Clevelands on an enemy team.  Might as well go AS and just keep them spotted..  although, with CE,  their AA bubble is larger than their air detection range.

EXPERIENCE and PRACTICE are what makes the battles go easier, no matter what the match-up. 

I once dominated a tier 6 (4 CV) match with a 1-1-0 Bogue facing a Ryujo.  My teammate Independence was ..  distracted?  -- Campaigns are fun (complete mission with a tier 4+ CV)

[kerensky914]

6 hours ago, Sub_Octavian said:

Hi. Not too bad, and not too long. Beneficial USN loadouts overhaul is in development. If it is successfully tested and makes to production, I think these problems will be solved.
Sorry for making you wait, we still need several updates to prepare everything, but we're quite close. 

The bad thing is, even if the changes are perfect and completely address every problem without breaking anything, half the playerbase will still be convinced that things have been made things worse, and the other half will think the changes don't do enough.  It is a no-win situation.

[mofton]

7 hours ago, YamatoA150 said:

Whatever you see them doing with Kaga and Enterprise; they're likely to carry it over to their respective lines in future changes.

As Kaga seems the superior ship tier for tier, and Enterprise was summarized as a 'Mehboat' the changes tried so far don't seem to be bringing IJN and USN CV's closer together in overall performance.