Anyone care to explain why manual drops are disabled for T4 and T5 CVs?

[RighteousRhyno]

Getting my CV feet wet for my first time with the Hosho and looking up on guides, I was confused why I couldn't manual drop. Found out that T4 and T5 manual drops or strafes are disabled. Why is that? Is this because of seal clubbers? 

[vak_]

3 minutes ago, RighteousRhyno said:

Is this because of seal clubbers? 

 

Yep.

 

IMO a really poor decision on WG's part. Now novice CV players have to learn how to do manual drops and strafes at T6 (second worst tier by MM spread), often facing the likes of NC/Kutuzov/Atlanta. Fun!

[Mahrs]

It IS frustrating, isn't it?  CV game play without manual drops or "alt-attacks" in general is sort of "wth?"  I'm not even good, being as new as you to this, but with only 3 squadrons to control, the Hosho is not exactly over taxing my abilities...

 

I don't like the idea of seal clubbers any more than the next guy, but is encountering them at Tier VI for the first time better for me?  I wonder.  I'm not learning the skills I'll need as a CV Captain simply because they're not accessible to me at the tier I'm playing.  It's doubly frustrating because the auto drops are so terrible that bots can beat them without difficulty in many cases.  You might actually be better off playing Randoms...  

 

That said, at least the bot CV is usually kind enough to let you lure his fighters over some friendlies, wreck them and then harass his TBs.  Leaves you relatively free to watch in frustrating as your TBs make another terrible auto drop that the bots easily beat. ;-)

[awiggin]

Rather than taking the sensible path, and boosting AA at lower tiers, they simply made it even easier to seal club....

Typical WG.

[awildseaking]

Because WG thinks the solution to stop clubbing is moving clubbing up to T6 instead of T4.

 

It's really just misdirected policy. If you want to stop stomping at low tiers, here's what you do.

 

1. Detrimental MM for premiums. T4 premiums should always be bottom tier. This will also help create some more top tier matches for T5.

2. No T4/T5 divisions. Players abuse these to force T5 ships into T4 games.

3. No low tier divisions for experienced players. I don't know where to draw that line, but I'll arbitrarily say 1k matches.

4. While this wasn't the thread subject, divs in general shouldn't be able to +/-2 with a CV. For instance, people div a T7 CV with T9 ships to try and force a top tier match for the T9. Hilariously, there are enough people who do this that it often results in these divs uptiering two T7 CVs into a T10 match. Regardless of tier, these need to stop.

[MrDeaf]

10 minutes ago, vak_ said:

 

Yep.

 

IMO a really poor decision on WG's part. Now novice CV players have to learn how to do manual drops and strafes at T6 (second worst tier by MM spread), often facing the likes of NC/Kutuzov/Atlanta. Fun!

as if that weren't bad enough...

Well, at the very least, those T5 CV weren't up against Saipan and Kaga.

[Kerrec]

1 minute ago, awildseaking said:

Because WG thinks the solution to stop clubbing is moving clubbing up to T6 instead of T4.

 

It's really just misdirected policy. If you want to stop stomping at low tiers, here's what you do.

 

1. Detrimental MM for premiums. T4 premiums should always be bottom tier. This will also help create some more top tier matches for T5.

2. No T4/T5 divisions. Players abuse these to force T5 ships into T4 games.

 

 

Nah, short of a few special cases, premiums have nothing to do with the issue.  In fact, are there even premium CV's at those tiers?  This is a thread about CV's, right?

Disabling manual drops was probably not the smartest choice.  More of a bandaid fix, instead of dealing with the real issue, which is having experienced players with thousands of games played, elited ships and fully XP'd captains playing low tier games and facing people that have just started playing, have no captains, no flags, stock ships, etc...  That is the problem.

I mean, how hard is it to program:

If Player 1 has more than 1000 games played, and Player 2 has less than 100 games played, don't put them in the same match.

?

 

 

 

 

[RighteousRhyno]

16 minutes ago, vak_ said:

 

Yep.

 

IMO a really poor decision on WG's part. Now novice CV players have to learn how to do manual drops and strafes at T6 (second worst tier by MM spread), often facing the likes of NC/Kutuzov/Atlanta. Fun!

I can see the seal clubbing aspect, but damn. I am trying to learn the ropes here on CVs and starting at T6 isn't really the best environment to develop skills to be competent enough to support my team. 

And learning CVs seems like a really steep skill curve too? At least a tutorial for CVs would be nice.

[Flashtirade]

They could have just given a weak DF (effectively only the panic part of it) to T4 and T5 cruisers to better introduce new cruisers to that role while also making new battleships want to rely on their cruisers in the face of constant 2CV vs 2CV matches.

But instead they make new skippers have to either learn CVs twice or keep bad habits until they quit or fail their way up the lines.

[HKRevolutionOfOurTime]

Overclubbing in the ASIA server

[saru_richard]

cause WG thought it will be a hilarious good idea to not expose the newbies to properly executed CV strikes early on so they can learn to deal with it later on till they reach tier 6 and by then its sort of to late to break habits

[awildseaking]

1 minute ago, Kerrec said:

Nah, short of a few special cases, premiums have nothing to do with the issue.  In fact, are there even premium CV's at those tiers?  This is a thread about CV's, right?

Disabling manual drops was probably not the smartest choice.  More of a bandaid fix, instead of dealing with the real issue, which is having experienced players with thousands of games played, elited ships and fully XP'd captains playing low tier games and facing people that have just started playing, have no captains, no flags, stock ships, etc...  That is the problem.

I mean, how hard is it to program:

If Player 1 has more than 1000 games played, and Player 2 has less than 100 games played, don't put them in the same match.

?

 

It has everything to do with the subject. Players stomp and I'm telling you why and how they stomp. For instance, a T4 CV div with a Yuubari, Texas, C hull DF Nicholas, etc. Blocking div abuse of all kinds will greatly discourage people from trying to stomp in CV. They'll be forced to simply play solo, at which point other measures can be implemented. However, we cannot continue to pretend that CV clubbing occurs in a vacuum. It's far more complex than that.

[DigitalRebel]

to deter seal clubbing..   but I think they tweaked the drops so they are closer so if you understand the game, it may take less skill but you can still seal club..   

[Ghost_Raven75]

I don't understand why everyone always complains no matter what WG does.  With the amount of hate towards the game and the company I'm surprised any of your play.  Sounds more like you'll never be happy.

[MrDeaf]

1 minute ago, Ghost_Raven75 said:

I don't understand why everyone always complains no matter what WG does.  With the amount of hate towards the game and the company I'm surprised any of your play.  Sounds more like you'll never be happy.

It's because we have hope to further prolong our torment in this gaming world

[Kerrec]

4 minutes ago, awildseaking said:

 

It has everything to do with the subject. Players stomp and I'm telling you why and how they stomp. For instance, a T4 CV div with a Yuubari, Texas, C hull DF Nicholas, etc. Blocking div abuse of all kinds will greatly discourage people from trying to stomp in CV. They'll be forced to simply play solo, at which point other measures can be implemented. However, we cannot continue to pretend that CV clubbing occurs in a vacuum. It's far more complex than that.

I fail to see how removing manual drops was the fix for divisions with a CV.

[Captain_Dilbert]

6 minutes ago, Kerrec said:

Nah, short of a few special cases, premiums have nothing to do with the issue.  In fact, are there even premium CV's at those tiers?  This is a thread about CV's, right?

Disabling manual drops was probably not the smartest choice.  More of a bandaid fix, instead of dealing with the real issue, which is having experienced players with thousands of games played, elited ships and fully XP'd captains playing low tier games and facing people that have just started playing, have no captains, no flags, stock ships, etc...  That is the problem.

I mean, how hard is it to program:

If Player 1 has more than 1000 games played, and Player 2 has less than 100 games played, don't put them in the same match.

?

 

 

 

 

Okay, I have 5000+ battles but only 20 or so CV battles, so does that mean I would have to play against an experienced CV player that is manual dropping and strafing?  Personally, I like the fact that there are no manual drops in T4 battles for two reasons.  First as a very inexperienced CV player it is giving me an adequate chance to learn a very, very different game style.  Secondly, the AA at T3/T4 is so pathetic that there was just too much CV seal clubbing going on.  Rather than adding manual drops, WG should provide the CV's with an additional DB or TB squadron with the B hull upgrade...this would then get them more accustomed to managing more squadrons.

[Anumati]

Because those poor low tier BBs were getting farmed. Also the fact that people were seal clubbing. 

 

Which doesn't even look at the true problem but just whacks the symptoms in a vain attempt to fix them. CVs past t5 before the nerf simply were not fun and or engaging for most CV players. They were too hard or AA was too strong or economy was too punishing. People wanna sit there and blame the seal clubbers in their CV at t4 and on the very same breath gladly tell the tale about how that "bad CV player flew near me" and wiped out all his planes in less than 5-6 seconds while playing a t7 ship, thus giving some small vindication at being killed by one the very few good CV players who out-skilled you at one point once in a blue moon.

 

Really it was a bad move that solved nothing and people who don't think of the larger ramifications tend to be selfish or just unable to see past themselves when they think its a good thing.

[Kerrec]

2 minutes ago, Captain_Dilbert said:

Okay, I have 5000+ battles but only 20 or so CV battles, so does that mean I would have to play against an experienced CV player that is manual dropping and strafing?  Personally, I like the fact that there are no manual drops in T4 battles for two reasons.  First as a very inexperienced CV player it is giving me an adequate chance to learn a very, very different game style.  Secondly, the AA at T3/T4 is so pathetic that there was just too much CV seal clubbing going on.  Rather than adding manual drops, WG should provide the CV's with an additional DB or TB squadron with the B hull upgrade...this would then get them more accustomed to managing more squadrons.

Yes, I think it's a necessary evil.  You have 5000+ battles, you don't get to play with brand new newbies.  Player retention is a vital requirement for gaming businesses like WG to survive, and allowing selfish players to stroke their ego by seal clubbing newbies is bad for business.

You always have Co-Op if you need to learn CV's as an seasoned player.

[RivertheRoyal]

26 minutes ago, awildseaking said:

 

2. No T4/T5 divisions. Players abuse these to force T5 ships into T4 games.

 

 

The flip side of this is that the tier 4 ship can now see tier 7 as well. Match making always heads the spread of the highest tiered ship in a division. 

[BaronVonTom]

there is a tutorial, but it is lengthy with all the videos.  It is by far the best carrier guide available.

 

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/79134-fara-carrier-guide/

[WanderingGhost]

Problem was treating part of a symptom, not the cause.

 

Manual drop, namely that of TB's, has been an issue since Alpha testing. It has always been OP and before anyone says it "skill", aside from being highly debatable, is not a sufficient balance parameter. To counter this Wargaming buffed AA, and buffed AA, and buffed AA and grouped AA, and buffed AA, and on down the line to the current situation. Where you still have some players crying CV's are OP because RNG lets the TB's through, and players abuse manual drop to basically auto hit the ship where they can't dodge, and CV players complaining AA OP because there are points lone BB's are wiping out most, if not all, of a 27+ plane attack wave. DB's may be debatable, but dropping torps so close you can't dodge is OP and I do have to agree that yes, it is one thing for a DD, cruiser and the couple BB's that have them to do it because yes, the ship has to get point blank to do that and that's a risk. And while yes, CV's can't afford really to lose planes, and TB's are always licked on to be focused, the way it works now helps no one. Which comes to the point why it was removed so far from tiers 4 and 5, much as it should be gone from all tiers and the players that abuse it now be made to learn how to properly use the supposedly useless auto drop (that I churn out 100k + damage games with), is that tier 4 and 5 have little or no AA to buff. So it got to a point the situation was untenable and resulted in them just opting to remove it, as well as strafing. 

 

Which also caused more problems, Because strafing, again, mechanics that should not have survived alpha, least not how it is, in that while this mechanic can be salvaged with a rework to change it to a group debuff, instead of the ability to insta delete as many as 30 planes in a go, as it stands now, it is OP s hell, especially because the ammo buffs to fighters took it from 1,maybe 2 good uses to as many as 5, per fighter group. And yes, fighters need a way to deal with grouped bombers almost on top of a target, but auto delete is not the way. And the problem is at low tiers, especially Alpha CV players vs someone that downloaded the game last week, and the low number of planes, they'd establish air superiority by literally wiping out everything the other player had in no time. It needed to be removed in that function especially from that tier, but unfortunately, it caused a bigger issue because tier 5 still sees 6 and 7, that can abuse strafe against it on top of superior numbers and fighters and the fact that USN fighters handily wreck their IJN counterparts which both in history and balance is not right.

 

Was the decision to remove manual drops and strafing in it's current form right? Yes, because it's been more detrimental, especially in trying to make it so more people can play CV's and to overall balance, but how they did it failed spectacularly and was the wrong way to do it. It really should have been an all or nothing deal.

[cometguy]

There are a variety of problems with CVs/AA as I see it.

1) aerial torpedo damage stays the same from t4 to t10.

2) decreasing bomber accuracy requires the ship to use a consumable.

3) planes are the only thing in the game you don't point guns at to attack, so you can't become more effective the better you get, and an afk Minotaur is still a difficult target to strike.

 

Manual drops we're removed from low tier because there's nothing low tier ships can do about it. But if you look at Taiho and Hakuryu, there's not much high tier ships can do about it either. Let them do something about it.

[SyndicatedINC]

4 minutes ago, Kerrec said:

Yes, I think it's a necessary evil.  You have 5000+ battles, you don't get to play with brand new newbies.  Player retention is a vital requirement for gaming businesses like WG to survive, and allowing selfish players to stroke their ego by seal clubbing newbies is bad for business.

You always have Co-Op if you need to learn CV's as an seasoned player.

 

Statements like this are why I am starting to believe that players should not be permitted to hide their stats and that XVM should be a mandatory element of the game UI.  Clearly people are under the misconception as to the average experience at different tiers.

 

The low tiers are not full of newbies outside of the protected MM realm for sub ~50-150 game count players.  Rather the non-protected MM realm is full of dedicated experienced players.  

 

It is not uncommon to play a T8-T10 match followed by a T3-T4 match only to notice that the average games played total and average games played in that ship is higher for the T3-T4 than it is for the T8-T10.

 

Often more than half the 24 players in the match have hundreds of games in their selected ship.  A seasoned player going back to learn a new ship line isn't clubbing baby seals, no, they ARE the seal.

[BrushWolf]

1 hour ago, MrDeaf said:

as if that weren't bad enough...

Well, at the very least, those T5 CV weren't up against Saipan and Kaga.

 

Que dump, one of those tier 5 CV's had been waiting a long time.