Graf Zepplin tier 8? preliminary info

[Jakajan]

https://thearmoredpatrol.com/2017/06/27/wows-0-6-8-graf-zeppelin-stats/

Honestly, I had long thought this carrier would be a tier 6 premium, which, I sort of wished had happened because that would be a new potential seal clubbing carrier choice with manual drops and all, but it is likely for exactly that reason and profit?? that she was bumped to tier 8.

25 fighters and 47 torpedo bombers, all fighters and bombers T8 with a 2x4 fighter squadron group and 3x5 torpedo bomber group is an interesting spread. Also worth noting she has slightly more torpedo damage per torpedo than even a US torpedo. I imagine her spread might be slightly sub par for balance reasons but who knows.

At a glance, I will say she is an offensive powerhouse, pretty far from historically accurate though, I don't think the Zepplin could support that many planes, she has very poor stealth too.

Still she is at least somewhat interesting. I think the Enterprise would be her toughest match-up though.

 

[The_first_harbinger]

I have always imagined Graf Zeppelin to be a different ship, a unique class so to say, to fit the historical accuracy of the ship.

Graf Zeppelin was never meant to be a strike carrier or an escort carrier in the IJN and USN tech tree. I think it's more accurately described by the Russian term "Aircraft carrying cruiser", like the Frankenstein Kiev class carrier, allow me to illustrate.

Graf Zeppelin has a similar displacement as the Lexington, which is pretty large for a ship of her type, but her hanger capacity was limited due to the restraints of carrier borne aircraft. She also features very good armor protection and cruising speed. Overall her armor and speed outmatches heavy cruisers. She has very unusual traits for a carrier: turtleback armor and heavy artillery suite. The ships' aircraft suite was tailored mostly for anti-aircraft interception as well as limited anti-surface capabilities.

This isn't a carrier. This is a true commerce raider, a ship they relies on her armor and artillery for most engagements against merchants, destroyers and light cruisers, things she cannot outrun, and use her superior reconnaissance through aircraft to avoid heavy cruisers and battleships, things she cannot fight. She is a Bismarck that isn't afraid of swordfishes, the Graf Spee with torpedo squad support, the Scharnhorst that the aircraft never spots and never caught, the ultimate commerce raider designed after taking lessons learned from previous tragedies of the Kreigsmarine giants.

I just can't stomach her being another generic aircraft carrier with some gimmicks.

[Jakajan]

Just now, The_first_harbinger said:

I have always imagined Graf Zeppelin to be a different ship, a unique class so to say, to fit the historical accuracy of the ship.

Graf Zeppelin was never meant to be a strike carrier or an escort carrier in the IJN and USN tech tree. I think it's more accurately described by the Russian term "Aircraft carrying cruiser", like the Frankenstein Kiev class carrier, allow me to illustrate.

Graf Zeppelin has a similar displacement as the Lexington, which is pretty large for a ship of her type, but her hanger capacity was limited due to the restraints of carrier borne aircraft. She also features very good armor protection and cruising speed. Overall her armor and speed outmatches heavy cruisers. She has very unusual traits for a carrier: turtleback armor and heavy artillery suite. The ships' aircraft suite was tailored mostly for anti-aircraft interception as well as limited anti-surface capabilities.

This isn't a carrier. This is a true commerce raider, a ship they relies on her armor and artillery for most engagements against merchants, destroyers and light cruisers, things she cannot outrun, and use her superior reconnaissance through aircraft to avoid heavy cruisers and battleships, things she cannot fight. She is a Bismarck that isn't afraid of swordfishes, the Graf Spee with torpedo squad support, the Scharnhorst that the aircraft never spots and the battleships never catches, the ultimate commerce raider designed after taking lessons learned from previous tragedies of the Kreigsmarine giants.

I just can't stomach her being another generic aircraft carrier with some gimmicks.

You know what? I agree.

Here is what I wish the Graf Zepplin had been, this is just me.

40-50 aircraft compliment, something like that, tier 6.

Give her nice secondary guns and a good top speed.

2x3 fighter squadrons

1x7 torpedo squadron squad (1 more than American for lulls)

2x3 smoke screen dive bomber squads

So most of this is predictable, though I think it'd be cool if her dive bombers actually did zero damage but allowed you to lay down a zone of smoke akin to a destroyer smoke that last maybe 60 seconds in a zone where the dive bombers drop. Maybe a zone about 2 km long and 300 meters wide? I think that'd be nice. The specifics could be worked on but these are just my general preferences.

 

[The_first_harbinger]

On 29/06/2017 at 11:25 AM, Jakajan said:

You know what? I agree.

Here is what I wish the Graf Zepplin had been, this is just me.

40-50 aircraft compliment, something like that, tier 6.

Give her nice secondary guns and a good top speed.

2x3 fighter squadrons

1x7 torpedo squadron squad (1 more than American for lulls)

2x3 smoke screen dive bomber squads

So most of this is predictable, though I think it'd be cool if her dive bombers actually did zero damage but allowed you to lay down a zone of smoke akin to a destroyer smoke that last maybe 60 seconds in a zone where the dive bombers drop. Maybe a zone about 2 km long and 300 meters wide? I think that'd be nice. The specifics could be worked on but these are just my general preferences.

 

I would give a slightly different opinion. 

Based on her chronological and technological level, she fits nicely at tier 8, especially with her deadly BF-109 late variants, more than enough to give the American corsairs something to chew at. The Stuka torpedo bombers are very fast for their type, much faster than the Japanese type 97, they can also take a seriously ugly beating thanks to the partly armored hull and wings.

 

40-50 ish compliment like you said, with fighters placed at tier 9 and torp bombers at tier 8

 

historically accurate top speed of 35kts and very impressive secondary suite, like, very impressive since she have a complete set of artillery fire control system(even allow WG to try switching modes, to use artillery like normal surface ships)

 

2x4 fighter and torpedo squadrons. 4 plane squadrons are historically accurate for the Luftwaffe, not sure about the planned carrier group though.

 

armored like the Taiho with turtle back, basically a big "[edited] you" to guns less than 8 inch.

 

Good concealment ,she does have a nice, thin, low silhouette and low-profile superstructure. Perhaps a base concealment of 11.2

The smoke bombers are...a bit...too...umm...radical. But would be interesting to see.

[Jakajan]

1 minute ago, The_first_harbinger said:

I would give a slightly different opinion. 

Based on her chronological and technological level, she fits nicely at tier 8, especially with her deadly BF-109 late variants, more than enough to give the American corsairs something to chew at. The Stuka torpedo bombers are very fast for their type, much faster than the Japanese type 97, they can also take a seriously ugly beating thanks to the partly armored hull and wings.

 

40-50 ish compliment like you said, with fighters placed at tier 9 and torp bombers at tier 8

 

historically accurate top speed of 35kts and very impressive secondary suite, like, very impressive since she have a complete set of artillery fire control system(even allow WG to try switching modes, to use artillery like normal surface ships)

 

2x4 fighter and torpedo squadrons. 4 plane squadrons are historically accurate for the Luftwaffe, not sure about the planned carrier group though.

 

armored like the Taiho with turtle back, basically a big "Fu*k you" to guns less than 8 inch.

 

Good concealment ,she does have a nice, thin, low silhouette and low-profile superstructure. Perhaps a base concealment of 11.2

The smoke bombers are...a bit...too...umm...radical. But would be interesting to see.

Smoke bombers would be a bit radical, but the germans were known for doing things differently sometimes and well, didn't the US have smoke bombers IRL? I saw a picture once of a bunch of US planes creating a smoke screen around their carrier, not sure where I saw it and I forget the time era but it was an intriguing idea.

[The_first_harbinger]

6 minutes ago, Jakajan said:

Smoke bombers would be a bit radical, but the germans were known for doing things differently sometimes and well, didn't the US have smoke bombers IRL? I saw a picture once of a bunch of US planes creating a smoke screen around their carrier, not sure where I saw it and I forget the time era but it was an intriguing idea.

That would be interesting, and it could certainly work.

But wouldn't it be interesting to have a carrier that not only can, but should, roll out with the fleet and stay not far back?

Her fighters are very fast(historically BF-109s sacrifice maneuvrability for speed), she have good concealment, speed, armor, and a deadly artillery suite, I can imagine people using her to jump on destroyers solo hunting for easy CV kills, and low health enemy cruisers.

 

[Jakajan]

Just now, The_first_harbinger said:

That would be interesting, and I could certainly work.

But wouldn't it be interesting to have a carrier that not only can, but should, roll out with the fleet and stay not far back?

Her fighters are very fast(historically BF-109s sacrifice maneuvrability for speed), she have good concealment, speed, armor, and a deadly artillery suite, I can imagine people using her to jump on destroyers solo hunting for easy CV kills, and low health enemy cruisers.

 

I, understand what you mean but typically carriers are a heavy focus target. Also WG would never let us man those 6 inch guns as much as we would like to do so.

A CV, even one as heavily armored as say Taiho could not last too long against say a Omaha or Cleveland firing on her, a carriers place is generally just outside of detect ability,

Nowww, if the carrier could generate it's own smoke screen cover that might change things.. XD XD.

[Herr_Reitz]

So when they put her/him into service, they'll actually be able to reuse it for the RU line eh?

Spoiler

After the war, the Soviets refloated the ship, repaired it and completed her, after which point she was pressed into the Soviet Baltic Fleet. [4] In fact, the Zeppelin (the Soviets kept the original name) was the Soviet’s first aircraft carrier – Russia wouldn’t build its own until 1967.

 

 

[Carrier_Ikoma]

Is there a picture of the strike pattern anywhere?

 

3x5 airborne TBs at a time, even with no DBs, could be quite OP. Especially if the torps do higher than normal damage.

 

But that kind of makes me think... probably the pattern isn't very good?

[Carrier_Ikoma]

2 hours ago, The_first_harbinger said:

That would be interesting, and it could certainly work.

But wouldn't it be interesting to have a carrier that not only can, but should, roll out with the fleet and stay not far back?

Her fighters are very fast(historically BF-109s sacrifice maneuvrability for speed), she have good concealment, speed, armor, and a deadly artillery suite, I can imagine people using her to jump on destroyers solo hunting for easy CV kills, and low health enemy cruisers.

 

 

CVs can't really do this unless they have excellent concealment (high tier ones don't) and good enough speed (low tier ones don't). CVs are very squishy and, of course, get focused to oblivion. And even if you do give her excellent concealment and good speed... aircraft spotting could still spell her doom.

 

It's a nice idea but would have the same problem that pvp convoy escort missions did.

[ArmouredCarriers]

23 hours ago, The_first_harbinger said:

I have always imagined Graf Zeppelin to be a different ship, a unique class so to say, to fit the historical accuracy of the ship.

Graf Zeppelin was never meant to be a strike carrier or an escort carrier in the IJN and USN tech tree. I think it's more accurately described by the Russian term "Aircraft carrying cruiser", like the Frankenstein Kiev class carrier, allow me to illustrate.

Graf Zeppelin has a similar displacement as the Lexington, which is pretty large for a ship of her type, but her hanger capacity was limited due to the restraints of carrier borne aircraft. She also features very good armor protection and cruising speed. Overall her armor and speed outmatches heavy cruisers. She has very unusual traits for a carrier: turtleback armor and heavy artillery suite. The ships' aircraft suite was tailored mostly for anti-aircraft interception as well as limited anti-surface capabilities.

This isn't a carrier. This is a true commerce raider, a ship they relies on her armor and artillery for most engagements against merchants, destroyers and light cruisers, things she cannot outrun, and use her superior reconnaissance through aircraft to avoid heavy cruisers and battleships, things she cannot fight. She is a Bismarck that isn't afraid of swordfishes, the Graf Spee with torpedo squad support, the Scharnhorst that the aircraft never spots and never caught, the ultimate commerce raider designed after taking lessons learned from previous tragedies of the Kreigsmarine giants.

I just can't stomach her being another generic aircraft carrier with some gimmicks.

 

It seems hard for many to grasp that carrier combat was a very different thing in the North Atlantic, North Sea and Mediterranean.

 

Most of these water spaces were relatively confined, so carriers had little choice but to operate within fast-sortie range of torpedo boats, destroyers, cruisers etc.

Not to mention operate within the radius of large bombers and heavy fighters - and often had to pass through 'choke points' within the range of single-seat fighters and light bombers.

 

As you point out, Germany had the added consideration of their warships operating as 'raiders'. Therefore endurance and speed mattered, and the mission profile was more one of finding + slowing the enemy to guide other warships / submarines towards and defending against air attack.

 

This is why Graf Zeppelin had her level of protection. It's why they went with ancient casemate-style guns.

Whether or not she would have succeeded is of course a matter for debate.

What isn't debatable is that she was never designed - nor intended - to fight in the Pacific.

 

Which is why Wargaming has probably fiddled with her game stats so much that she no longer really resembles Graf Zeppelin.

[pyantoryng]

21 hours ago, Carrier_Ikoma said:

Is there a picture of the strike pattern anywhere?

 

3x5 airborne TBs at a time, even with no DBs, could be quite OP. Especially if the torps do higher than normal damage.

 

But that kind of makes me think... probably the pattern isn't very good?

I don't think strike patten will be out any time soon given that this is preliminary and still in ST.

But sure as heck won't be the flat USN pattern...unless WG indeed give it good pattern, and folks can then clamor for 2/2/0 Lexington and 3/2/0 Midway again...

[HazeGrayUnderway]

This CV is going to be so artificially inflated to make her fit Tier VIII that it's going to be comedic.  My gut feeling is she'll be great simply because it's not a USN CV.

 

What I find hilarious is that USN CVs were nerfed in 2015 to no longer have 12 TB drops.  

But IJN preserved that capability to have 12 TB drops at Tier IX-X.

Premium Kaga was given 12 TB drops AT TIER VII.

Graf Zeppelin is getting 15 TB drops at Tier VIII.

Meanwhile, USN does not get 12 TB drops, they lost that capability, and even "Mehbote" Enterprise can't do 12 TB drops with her 2 TB units, who also suffer from WIDE OPEN drop patterns.

[pyantoryng]

2 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

This CV is going to be so artificially inflated to make her fit Tier VIII that it's going to be comedic.  My gut feeling is she'll be great simply because it's not a USN CV.

 

What I find hilarious is that USN CVs were nerfed in 2015 to no longer have 12 TB drops.  

But IJN preserved that capability to have 12 TB drops at Tier IX-X.

Premium Kaga was given 12 TB drops AT TIER VII.

Graf Zeppelin is getting 15 TB drops at Tier VIII.

Meanwhile, USN does not get 12 TB drops, they lost that capability, and even "Mehbote" Enterprise can't do 12 TB drops with her 2 TB units, who also suffer from WIDE OPEN drop patterns.

IJN: Converge pattern = need skill therefore up to 3 can be alloted...and 4 plane squads.

Kaga: Its own unique pattern which I don't know how it works...but it seems highly effective.

Graf Zeppelin: Unknown, only sheer amount of torpedo planes

USN: FLAT STRAIGHT DROP PATTERN TOO EASY TO USE MUST NOT ALLOW MORE THAN ONE (By the way, I just hit a GK with a full spread of my Lex today)

Big E: W-shaped pattern = need skill, therefore two squads can be allotted...but only 10 because US having torpedoes = OP.

Anything not USN can get lots of torpedo bombers...just because USN has 1000lb HE bombs..................

 

[HazeGrayUnderway]

1 hour ago, pyantoryng said:

IJN: Converge pattern = need skill therefore up to 3 can be alloted...and 4 plane squads.

Kaga: Its own unique pattern which I don't know how it works...but it seems highly effective.

Graf Zeppelin: Unknown, only sheer amount of torpedo planes

USN: FLAT STRAIGHT DROP PATTERN TOO EASY TO USE MUST NOT ALLOW MORE THAN ONE (By the way, I just hit a GK with a full spread of my Lex today)

Big E: W-shaped pattern = need skill, therefore two squads can be allotted...but only 10 because US having torpedoes = OP.

Anything not USN can get lots of torpedo bombers...just because USN has 1000lb HE bombs..................

 

 

Kaga's drop pattern is one of those really weird ones but it's actually of benefit.  IMO, you can get some really solid amount of hits when a ship is doing the 'ol turning in or turn away method.  The core of the pattern is in the middle so ships doing the typical evasion end up eating just as much torps as me attempting a clean broadside run.  With Kaga attacking such ships, IMO it's easier because there is really no leading of the target to do 

 

I will be curious to see how Graf Zepp's drops look.  15 torp bombers is absolutely murderous if we go by anything we have seen so far.

[ArmouredCarriers]

Makes me shudder to think what they're going to do to the RN carriers...

Dive-bombing Swordfish?

 

RN carrier doctrine was all torpedo bomber. They didn't see much value in dive bombers. The Skua was an anomaly.

RN carrier doctrine was also night torpedo attack... thus sticking with biplanes longer than most others.

 

 

[Voleron]

Frankly speaking, Graf Zep is one of the Ships that i've been waiting for since the start of the game; a one-off oddball that had so many strange design choices (and blunders) that it'd be a unique blast to play.

What i'm seeing in the leaked stats isn't Graf Zeppelin. It's some kind of abomination wearing it's skin.

Tier 8 when her historical abilities are a shoe-in for Tier 6, a hangar that's almost double the size of her historical hangar, and the *utterly inexplicable* decision to not give her any Dive Bombers and instead fill her with... Torpedo Stukas!? Even after historically as the war dragged on, her historical (intended) loadout transitioned *away* from torpedoes to an exclusively Fighter/DB mix? Now I know in this game, some concessions to playability must sometimes be made at the expense of Historicity, but this isn't a concession - it's outright ignoring the original ship you're attempting to depict. And frankly, Slapping a "1945" on the end of the ship's name in the leaked preview card doesn't even remotely excuse that (Especially when her AA fit is historical... for her 1942 plan!).

I don't even care if it's OP or UP or whatever with these stats; it's just so disgustingly *wrong* that's the problem here.

 

Commenting on the most probable reason it's at T8 would probably be... inflammatory, but I can say that even a Tier 7 Zep would have been more than sufficient to pull of a ridiculous secondary build carrier for sheer laughs - 7 is, after all, the Tier that Manual secondaries becomes really good. Give her her historical tiny hangar, but an absurdly heavy secondary battery, and you're vaguely balanced. Weird and trippy as hell, but you're not overpowered in any sense - You may have a T6 Hangar Size, but you've got more secondaries at roughly the same range and accuracy as Scharnhorst. Given no-one's trying to make a whole line out of this, surely that's acceptable.

And Dive Bombers, for the love of god, get rid of these ahistorical Torpedo Stukas and give her her intended complement of Dive Bombers, as is right and proper. Yes, while I do know some sources have stated that the Ju87C was allegedly supposed to have both torpedo and dive bomb capability, there's no evidence to suggest that the ability to carry torpedoes was ever fitted or even properly designed for them. In the early stages the Torpedo delivery role was earmarked for the Fiessler Fi 167; the Stuka always had the Dive Bomber role; and there's no evidence to indicate this changed after the re-work of her air wings in 1942 to only have 109Ts and Ju87Cs. You'd have more of a case for using the Fw190 variant that actually carried Torpedoes as a T8 Torp Bomber; or if you brought it back to T7 or T6, just use the Fiesslers... (Not to mention that the idea of a Bf-109T as a Tier 8 fighter, when it's a glorified 109E in a capabilities, is a complete and utter farce in the first place!)

 

Honestly, as it is, I will *not* be buying GZ if she remains in her current form; even though this is the ship i've been waiting for since the game was announced years ago. When I first heard she was on the supertest server, I was gearing up the wallet to buy her biggest silliest fully loaded pack possible, but now... nope. Not even going to bother unless she actually resembles reality on release.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

On 7/1/2017 at 4:21 AM, Voleron said:

Frankly speaking, Graf Zep is one of the Ships that i've been waiting for since the start of the game; a one-off oddball that had so many strange design choices (and blunders) that it'd be a unique blast to play.

What i'm seeing in the leaked stats isn't Graf Zeppelin. It's some kind of abomination wearing it's skin.

Tier 8 when her historical abilities are a shoe-in for Tier 6, a hangar that's almost double the size of her historical hangar, and the *utterly inexplicable* decision to not give her any Dive Bombers and instead fill her with... Torpedo Stukas!? Even after historically as the war dragged on, her historical (intended) loadout transitioned *away* from torpedoes to an exclusively Fighter/DB mix? Now I know in this game, some concessions to playability must sometimes be made at the expense of Historicity, but this isn't a concession - it's outright ignoring the original ship you're attempting to depict. And frankly, Slapping a "1945" on the end of the ship's name in the leaked preview card doesn't even remotely excuse that (Especially when her AA fit is historical... for her 1942 plan!).

I don't even care if it's OP or UP or whatever with these stats; it's just so disgustingly *wrong* that's the problem here.

 

Commenting on the most probable reason it's at T8 would probably be... inflammatory, but I can say that even a Tier 7 Zep would have been more than sufficient to pull of a ridiculous secondary build carrier for sheer laughs - 7 is, after all, the Tier that Manual secondaries becomes really good. Give her her historical tiny hangar, but an absurdly heavy secondary battery, and you're vaguely balanced. Weird and trippy as hell, but you're not overpowered in any sense - You may have a T6 Hangar Size, but you've got more secondaries at roughly the same range and accuracy as Scharnhorst. Given no-one's trying to make a whole line out of this, surely that's acceptable.

And Dive Bombers, for the love of god, get rid of these ahistorical Torpedo Stukas and give her her intended complement of Dive Bombers, as is right and proper. Yes, while I do know some sources have stated that the Ju87C was allegedly supposed to have both torpedo and dive bomb capability, there's no evidence to suggest that the ability to carry torpedoes was ever fitted or even properly designed for them. In the early stages the Torpedo delivery role was earmarked for the Fiessler Fi 167; the Stuka always had the Dive Bomber role; and there's no evidence to indicate this changed after the re-work of her air wings in 1942 to only have 109Ts and Ju87Cs. You'd have more of a case for using the Fw190 variant that actually carried Torpedoes as a T8 Torp Bomber; or if you brought it back to T7 or T6, just use the Fiesslers... (Not to mention that the idea of a Bf-109T as a Tier 8 fighter, when it's a glorified 109E in a capabilities, is a complete and utter farce in the first place!)

 

Honestly, as it is, I will *not* be buying GZ if she remains in her current form; even though this is the ship i've been waiting for since the game was announced years ago. When I first heard she was on the supertest server, I was gearing up the wallet to buy her biggest silliest fully loaded pack possible, but now... nope. Not even going to bother unless she actually resembles reality on release.

 

From a WoWS CV gameplay perspective, you really, really, REALLY do not want a Dive Bomber focus.  They are too RNG-oriented with lots of misses.  15 torpedo bombers is going to be very powerful.

[Reymu]

As long as the GZ is dangerous to anything not AA-specced, I'm willing to consider buying.

[aethervox]

I suggest T6 for the GZ and a 'historical' loadout for it's planes which appears to be Fs & DBs &, at most, 1 TB squadron.  T8 is extremely 'stretching' it, imho.

[Fallschirmfuchs]

The really sad part is, Stuka is short for Sturzkampfflugzeug, which means "dive bomber". I was hoping they'd implement the terror of getting dive bombed by a Stuka and that glorious screech that makes one duck and cover. Hitler and his love for dive bombers probably ultimately cost him the war, so why change that? I'd say give her all 3 of her proposed load outs so at least we'd still have the option to use the Fi 167 in the roll of a torp bomber, but buff the experience of dive bombing with a Stuka, maybe even throw in a stun effect from your enemies shitting their pants...

 

Hopefully something better will come of her then what we're currently seeing, cause it currently feels like nothing more than a money grab.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

The caption for the below pic shows a Ju-87D, according to the source I grabbed the pic from.

[Lord_Magus]

On 7/3/2017 at 1:56 AM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

From a WoWS CV gameplay perspective, you really, really, REALLY do not want a Dive Bomber focus.  They are too RNG-oriented with lots of misses.  15 torpedo bombers is going to be very powerful.

I still think Graf Zeppelin would make more send downtiered to T7 and given a 2-1-2 loadout. Just nerf the planes' stats a bit in the process but bring the torp range back to normal. 15 TBs seems too strong.

I'd also love if GZ got 6-7km secondary range. A secondary build CV might not be a good idea but it'd be hilarious.

[Palladia]

On 6/30/2017 at 0:46 PM, pyantoryng said:

IJN: Converge pattern = need skill therefore up to 3 can be alloted...and 4 plane squads.

Kaga: Its own unique pattern which I don't know how it works...but it seems highly effective.

Graf Zeppelin: Unknown, only sheer amount of torpedo planes

USN: FLAT STRAIGHT DROP PATTERN TOO EASY TO USE MUST NOT ALLOW MORE THAN ONE (By the way, I just hit a GK with a full spread of my Lex today)

Big E: W-shaped pattern = need skill, therefore two squads can be allotted...but only 10 because US having torpedoes = OP.

Anything not USN can get lots of torpedo bombers...just because USN has 1000lb HE bombs..................

 

...IJN requires skill to use?  In...in what century?  It has a smaller squadron so it has a tighter spread and CONVERGES,  eliminating gaps in the drop pattern rapidly.  They also have the ability to cross drop and catch...just about everything in that net.  Which is probably what made USN double squadrons so dangerous,  twelve torpedo's is going to either form a wall,  which isn't fun,  or an extremely tight net,  which is equally not fun.  That being said, removing half of them was an over-nerf and it still shows.  That dive bomber focus hasn't really been working out for the USN.

[pyantoryng]

16 minutes ago, Palladia said:

...IJN requires skill to use?  In...in what century?  It has a smaller squadron so it has a tighter spread and CONVERGES,  eliminating gaps in the drop pattern rapidly.  They also have the ability to cross drop and catch...just about everything in that net.  Which is probably what made USN double squadrons so dangerous,  twelve torpedo's is going to either form a wall,  which isn't fun,  or an extremely tight net,  which is equally not fun.  That being said, removing half of them was an over-nerf and it still shows.  That dive bomber focus hasn't really been working out for the USN.

While Japan gets twelve torpedoes from three directions starting at tier 9? I think not.

Just goes to show that the current system is fundamentally broken, that US carriers can't get more than six torpedoes from a myriad of reasons including squadron size, spread, and total plane count in the sky...