Sub_Octavian on Shell Dispersion

[1nv4d3rZ1m]

 

Some things about the new forum still confuse me...

[m373x]

Quote

Dispersion ellipse is initially projected on your aiming plane, not on water

That's something new for me.

Also there is a distinct delay between target lock visualization and actual benefits granted by target lock.

[Lensar]

Glad to see they are addressing the real hard hitting issues facing the game. Namely, that BB shells sometimes miss.

[Battlecruiser_Amagi]

Fuso has SIGMA 1.5? Hmmm, I thought it was 1.8. I always thought that the Nagato had 1.8 as well, but I've seen people saying it has 2.00.

 

I'm confused here....

[1nv4d3rZ1m]

3 minutes ago, Battlecruiser_Amagi said:

Fuso has SIGMA 1.5? Hmmm, I thought it was 1.8. I always thought that the Nagato had 1.8 as well, but I've seen people saying it has 2.00.

 

I'm confused here....

 

I posted this table last year when it was assembled:

 

Tier	Ship	Sigma
2	Mikasa	1.8
3	Kawachi	1.8
4	Myogi	1.8
4	Ishizuchi	2
5	Kongo	1.8
6	Fuso	1.5
7	Nagato	2
8	Amagi	1.8
9	Izumo	1.8
10	Yamato	2.1
3	South Carolina	1.8
4	Wyoming	1.5
4	Arkansas Beta	1.5
5	New York	1.8
5	Texas	1.8
6	New Mexico	1.5
7	Colorado A	1.8
7	Colorado B/C	2
8	North Carolina	1.8
9	Iowa	1.8
10	Montana	1.8
8	Tirpitz	1.8
6	Warspite	2
4	Imperator Nikolai I	2

From here

[Battlecruiser_Amagi]

Cool, thanks!

NC has 2.00 now, so it's super good. AZ has 1.9, whilst NM has 1.5 (lul). And the Nagato has 2.00, which I didn't know... No wonder I find the ship like a real performer nowadays. Definitely the best T7 BB.

[Big_Spud]

About sums up what we had suspected was going on. Nothing too surprising here.

[AspiringCodger]

53 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

 

Target lock is a must. There is absolutely no point in shooting without target lock, if you are able to acquire it.

 

There are situations where it's useful not to lock on.  I've landed solid hits on ships that were doing a good job of avoiding shots simply by removing target lock so Priority Target doesn't inform them they're being targeted.

[Battleship_Dunkerque]

1 hour ago, Battlecruiser_Amagi said:

Cool, thanks!

NC has 2.00 now, so it's super good. AZ has 1.9, whilst NM has 1.5 (lul). And the Nagato has 2.00, which I didn't know... No wonder I find the ship like a real performer nowadays. Definitely the best T7 BB.

This is precisely why they don't usually talk about sigma.  It is only one parameter that affects dispersion, so just because a ship has a 'bad' sigma does not automatically make it inaccurate.

[WhatIsTheOdds]

Can we get a comment on why some ships, battleships in particular, seem to have terrible dispersion at close ranges? Feels like almost the same dispersion at 2km as at 20km with IJN BBs in particular.

[Izolyn]

5 minutes ago, NeoRussia said:

Can we get a comment on why some ships, battleships in particular, seem to have terrible dispersion at close ranges? Feels like almost the same dispersion at 2km as at 20km with IJN BBs in particular.

 

I believe the key words there are "seem to" and "feels like."

Which is to say, their dispersion is, in fact, better at close ranges. Not great, not even necessarily good, because they're battleships, but better.

[Carl]

Interesting thought, if your aiming plane matters, does that means the top down view of a spotter changes the plane? @LittleWhiteMouse maybe worth testing when your doing your dispersion ellipses, assuming you have time ofc.

 

1 answer, 20 new questions.

[LittleWhiteMouse]

The top down view shouldn't change the aiming plane.  That's fixed.  A spotter would just change your perspective (and maximum range, obviously).

[AVR_Project]

25 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

The top down view shouldn't change the aiming plane.  That's fixed.  A spotter would just change your perspective (and maximum range, obviously).

Spotter and AFT also increases detection distance -- the other side of the sword that faces you.

I'm shocked about target lock, though.  I need to play with this in a training room to see if I must maintain lock -- all the way to the target.

Watching videos -- they do.  In real life, it's shoot and forget, but this is a game.

Many times, ship stopped - shooting on the edge of an island.  I fire a full broadside right on the target.  Target goes 'out of bloom' and vanishes...  Shots land somewhere else.

I'm sorry if I didn't see it mentioned here, but dispersion and sigma are not the same.  Even though the Fuso and New Mexico have the same sigma, the dispersion is obviously different on Octavian's pictures.

Dispersion sets the height/width of the landing zone.  Increased Sigma determines the better 'grouping' of the shots towards the center of that field.

[NCC81701]

4 minutes ago, AVR_Project said:

I'm shocked about target lock, though.  I need to play with this in a training room to see if I must maintain lock -- all the way to the target.

Dispersion ellipses are generated at the time of firing and shells are released on a ballistic trajectory (based on in-game physics model) to the target. Releasing target lock mid flight have no effect on the shells that are in the air. You can tell that this is true because if it was not, there would be a sudden and discontinuous change in the ballistic trajectory of the shell flight path when you hit X to release target lock, or any time a ship goes stealth and you lose target lock .

[AVR_Project]

At the beginning of a battle, some players will fire at the top of a nearby island mountain.  I'm sure we all find that behavior a bit annoying.

So I asked one operator why they did that.

"To see what my pattern will be on this game.  If it's good, I attack.  If it's bad I hide."

Seems all too simple now..   Huh???

[Lampshade_M1A2]

I've often wondered if the game might actually benefit from a mechanic where rapid course changes and maneuvering increases your dispersion. Hard to say.

[Edgecase]

The vertically projected aiming plane makes a lot of results make more sense.

[WhatIsTheOdds]

8 hours ago, Izolyn said:

 

I believe the key words there are "seem to" and "feels like."

Which is to say, their dispersion is, in fact, better at close ranges. Not great, not even necessarily good, because they're battleships, but better.

 

I've done tests. Being closer than ~12km in some ships yields almost no advantage in dispersion. You can be point-blank up to another ship and the dispersion cone is still projected to miss their ship as if it was more than 10km from you. Typically the cone gets smaller the closer the target is, but this is not always true, and it not only is much different between classes of ship but also nation. We don't know the cases where it is and not true because nobody has bothered to ask the developers even though its an important thing to know.

[Carl]

14 hours ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

The top down view shouldn't change the aiming plane.  That's fixed.  A spotter would just change your perspective (and maximum range, obviously).

 

Cheers for the clarification mouse. It sounded like from what Sub_Octavian was saying that the aiming plane was a line from the camera to the target. He confused me good and proper.

[Murcc]

18 hours ago, AVR_Project said:

At the beginning of a battle, some players will fire at the top of a nearby island mountain.  I'm sure we all find that behavior a bit annoying.

So I asked one operator why they did that.

"To see what my pattern will be on this game.  If it's good, I attack.  If it's bad I hide."

Seems all too simple now..   Huh???

I really don't think that matters.  People do need to mentally justify why things happen in the game, so they do things like this.  I've had games where my dispersion was all over the place early on, but tightened up later.  Its just the RNG roll you get from each individual shot.  Sometimes it does seem like the game is trolling you, though. LOL.

[AVR_Project]

2 hours ago, Murcc said:

I really don't think that matters.  People do need to mentally justify why things happen in the game, so they do things like this.  I've had games where my dispersion was all over the place early on, but tightened up later.  Its just the RNG roll you get from each individual shot.  Sometimes it does seem like the game is trolling you, though. LOL.

Reading this topic has me taking a long hard look at how the mechanics of the game PLUS RNG can really screw with a person.

Firing without a target lock DOUBLES the posted dispersion (as listed in the ship gun characteristics in-game).

So firing at flashes inside smoke is TWICE as difficult.  AFT and Spotters do NOT reduce dispersion as indicated by the reading changing on Capt Skill selection.

And that last second when you are all lined up for a shot, and the target goes out of bloom...   All that effort is diminished -- don't waste the ammo.

...

As for the Hillbilly attitude towards RNG, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out some missions are different than others - no matter how hard one studies the physics and math around the subject.  These guys only do gun battles, and in the thousands of them they have picked up habits -- that WORK.

...

Who knows?  Maybe it's a back-door the programmers put there to measure certain match variables.

[Murcc]

I've had issues with the target lock before.  I had been shooting at an angled ship.  I then switched my guns to a ship that popped up about 2km behind the one I had been shooting at.  My shots all landed half way between the two and not even close to either ship.  I never think of the target lock as being an issue until it happens in the game, which usually results in a big missed opportunity.

 

I wish WG would implement a firing option that would allow us to set the target distance manually if we turn off the target lock.

[Aussie_Aussie_Aussie]

thanks for the info...

One question..... When I played (I mean when) the Fredrick Des Grosse I started submitting tickets because the difference between the Bismark/Tirpitz and the FDG is horrendous.

I remember one game in particular ( it still haunts me:((  ) I had a New Orleans 4 km away fully broadside I fired all guns and not one shell hit!!!  the front 2 turrets went over the ship and two rear turrets were short!!

this was not a once off it was a regular occurrence, and I mean regular... I got better accuracy from the Gneisenau. This is why I started submitting tickets. I played it as a brawler but what use is brawling when you cant hit a broadside cruiser 4 km away.

Please explain why this ship has such terrible accuracy... PLEASE!!!!!!!

I love her but cant play her when she cant hit at those ranges.